KNX, EEE Top touchscreen, Tuners in MD rather than core?

[trentend]

Hello all. Just a quick introduction.  I have a long standing interest in this project (interested in it initially when LinuxMCE didn't exist, and I followed the meagre information available on Pluto) as the automation solution for a housebuild project that I have been engaged in (for seven long years - don't ask, long story - my "grand design").  The project is reaching a physical conclusion of the build and I'm approaching the final specifications that I build in as the AV and controller equipment.  Just a short description of what I currently have: Fully Cat6 wired house. KNX Automated lighting, sockets, and upstairs temperature controller for the radiators. Downstairs underfloor heating with programmable zone temperature controllers and an ip interface. Two satellite dishes with quad LNB's - one fixed, one motorised. The Comfort alarm with KNX interface, and comprehensive PIRs to detect presence in rooms, will be used to turn on certain room lights under set circumstances.  A KNX weather station for temperature, pressure, rainfall, and ambient light will help with the light measurement.

The core will sit in a rack in the central electrical cabinet, and each media director will sit in a recessed panel in the walls of the living room and dining room driving large full HD (1080p) screens mounted on the walls.  The KNX system will be programmed and have well located distributed switches capable of controlling the lights.  It would be nice if LinuxMCE could override this for more sophisticated scene setting control, and to allow for switching the relays controlling the power sockets (to switch off things for energy saving, and to control lamps plugged into 'ordinary' power sockets). I have some mono-speakers mounted in certain rooms, driven by t-amps.  I would be interested in the best way of piping music/announcements through these mono-speakers - 6 in total (in addiition I have a nice stereo+surround setup for the living room)  I also I have a nice portable 1080p LCD widescreen monitor, on which I intend to mount an eee Box on it's VESA mounting, and use as a portable machine to be plugged into the Cat6 outlets in whichever room it currently resides.  I have what I intend as the core system in a dual opteron 2U server - because of its size it is ill suited to take tuners, and I also will need something like 4 Freeview, and 8 Satellite (primary target freesat HD compatible) - the intention being to supply 2 televisions with direct freeview aerial connections, to have two ordinary dual tuner satellite boxes for the two primary televisions, and to have 2 freeview, 2 motorised dish tuners (HD?), and 2 fixed dish HD tuners (to Astra for freesat - Sky a possibility?) connected to the LinuxMCE system for view/record.  It strikes me that the new eee Top would make a lovely portable TV/controller for this system - anyone using it?

I apologise if this post offends anyone.  I have read at length over many years, and some of these issues remain unresolved in my mind.  So just to recap, the questions:

What is the current state of integration with KNX? What is the best interface to connect it to LinuxMCE, and how?
Anyone using the new eee Top with LinuxMCE? How does it perform? Are touchscreen drivers available?  Is 1080 (p or i) a non-starter using the eee Box as a MD for the full HD screen?
Can I have no tuners in the core, but add them all to the MD's for the primary screens, or am I better getting the tuners in the core, and using my 2U server (with huge storage) as a storage server? Is network/remote storage supported (at all) by LinuxMCE?

If nobody has anything to offer on these, or considers them inappropriate questions, I will proceed on the basis I currently understand, and see how I progress. These are valuable questions to me, however, and I will appreciate any efforts you might make to set me on a better course.  Ultimately as I progress with my install and setup I will be happy to put the knowledge gained into helping others.

Thank you all, and major kudos to the developers. I feel LinuxMCE offers a unique opportunity in Home Automation and AV distribution.  I'm such a geek that I'm building my house around a series of related broad hunches, in the hope of proving them.  Your help in that appreciated.

Paul.

[tschak909]

Thanks for your interest, and welcome.

You may want to read a bit farther, because yes. LinuxMCE can control devices itself in very complex ways that no current hardware solution can duplicate. However, your choice of KNX may have been a bit foolhardy. Our implementation of EIB/KNX is very basic.

Yes, peripherals including tuner cards can be distributed to media directors as well as the core. But only for MythTV. VDR does not currently have this capability (it is a limitation of its basic design.).

For a simple audio interface to speakers, look at the Squeezebox. It can be used for both audio delivery and for announcement delivery out of the box. A Multi-zoned amplifier with appropriate control interface can also be used, but you will probably need to write a device template and corresponding GSD device.

From your own descriptions, it looks like you are in the UK, and therefore would be using VDR. You may also wish to speak to Totallymaxed and his company CHT solutions, as their market is your part of the globe.

-Thom

Hello all. Just a quick introduction.  I have a long standing interest in this project (interested in it initially when LinuxMCE didn't exist, and I followed the meagre information available on Pluto) as the automation solution for a housebuild project that I have been engaged in (for seven long years - don't ask, long story - my "grand design").  The project is reaching a physical conclusion of the build and I'm approaching the final specifications that I build in as the AV and controller equipment.  Just a short description of what I currently have: Fully Cat6 wired house. KNX Automated lighting, sockets, and upstairs temperature controller for the radiators. Downstairs underfloor heating with programmable zone temperature controllers and an ip interface. Two satellite dishes with quad LNB's - one fixed, one motorised. The Comfort alarm with KNX interface, and comprehensive PIRs to detect presence in rooms, will be used to turn on certain room lights under set circumstances.  A KNX weather station for temperature, pressure, rainfall, and ambient light will help with the light measurement.

The core will sit in a rack in the central electrical cabinet, and each media director will sit in a recessed panel in the walls of the living room and dining room driving large full HD (1080p) screens mounted on the walls.  The KNX system will be programmed and have well located distributed switches capable of controlling the lights.  It would be nice if LinuxMCE could override this for more sophisticated scene setting control, and to allow for switching the relays controlling the power sockets (to switch off things for energy saving, and to control lamps plugged into 'ordinary' power sockets). I have some mono-speakers mounted in certain rooms, driven by t-amps.  I would be interested in the best way of piping music/announcements through these mono-speakers - 6 in total (in addiition I have a nice stereo+surround setup for the living room)  I also I have a nice portable 1080p LCD widescreen monitor, on which I intend to mount an eee Box on it's VESA mounting, and use as a portable machine to be plugged into the Cat6 outlets in whichever room it currently resides.  I have what I intend as the core system in a dual opteron 2U server - because of its size it is ill suited to take tuners, and I also will need something like 4 Freeview, and 8 Satellite (primary target freesat HD compatible) - the intention being to supply 2 televisions with direct freeview aerial connections, to have two ordinary dual tuner satellite boxes for the two primary televisions, and to have 2 freeview, 2 motorised dish tuners (HD?), and 2 fixed dish HD tuners (to Astra for freesat - Sky a possibility?) connected to the LinuxMCE system for view/record.  It strikes me that the new eee Top would make a lovely portable TV/controller for this system - anyone using it?

I apologise if this post offends anyone.  I have read at length over many years, and some of these issues remain unresolved in my mind.  So just to recap, the questions:

What is the current state of integration with KNX? What is the best interface to connect it to LinuxMCE, and how?
Anyone using the new eee Top with LinuxMCE? How does it perform? Are touchscreen drivers available?  Is 1080 (p or i) a non-starter using the eee Box as a MD for the full HD screen?
Can I have no tuners in the core, but add them all to the MD's for the primary screens, or am I better getting the tuners in the core, and using my 2U server (with huge storage) as a storage server? Is network/remote storage supported (at all) by LinuxMCE?

If nobody has anything to offer on these, or considers them inappropriate questions, I will proceed on the basis I currently understand, and see how I progress. These are valuable questions to me, however, and I will appreciate any efforts you might make to set me on a better course.  Ultimately as I progress with my install and setup I will be happy to put the knowledge gained into helping others.

Thank you all, and major kudos to the developers. I feel LinuxMCE offers a unique opportunity in Home Automation and AV distribution.  I'm such a geek that I'm building my house around a series of related broad hunches, in the hope of proving them.  Your help in that appreciated.

Paul.

[trentend]

....You may want to read a bit farther, because yes. LinuxMCE can control devices itself in very complex ways that no current hardware solution can duplicate. However, your choice of KNX may have been a bit foolhardy. Our implementation of EIB/KNX is very basic......

Thanks for the response. I am in the UK, and I will look into what you say.  Yes it was my intention to use VDR, and I will probably be looking for a way of driving the outputs to the t-amp via sound cards, as a preference (core, or md's or dedicate hardware with lots of channel outputs). The trend audio external soundcards are nice, and I'm using one of those to give a nice clean output via a t-amp to Klipsch RB-61's.  If Linux supports more than one of those via the USB controller that may be a potential solution for me.

My choice of KNX is based on a number of factors.  Clearly it is a European based system, and less well supported in USA based software projects. However, in my view, it is very good. In fact I would go as far as to say that it is the best integrated control system in the market place.  It's superior to everything else available in my territory, and over the last five years I've researched them all.  I can program my KNX devices so they work, they will work without a controller, they will reset themselves after power cuts.  They can integrate a wider range of items than pretty much anything else.  You can send bus messages via pretty much every medium, including powerline, wireless and dedicated bus. I will only be using the dedicated bus.

I would only use LinuxMCE as a secondary level controller to change scenes, or instigate certain actions.  If there isn't a lot in place already, I guess that's an area that I will be contributing to the project, over time.  I've really looked at every other type of integrated automation system, and everything comes short of what KNX can do.  If it never becomes integrated into my LinuxMCE system it's not the end of the world.  I can program it to just work, using the alarm system and the integrated logic built into each device.  There are dedicated web controllers for KNX, and that is another possible avenue I can pursue.

I see LinuxMCE's big advantage in my situation as Audio/Video distribution.  If I can add in the other elements and get a totally integrated system, all the better, but my house is designed so that each sub-system works independently with no single point of failure. The devil will be in the integration, but there's a better chance with LinuxMCE, as far as I see it, than with any other project that I'm aware of.

[hari]

I've really looked at every other type of integrated automation system, and everything comes short of what KNX can do.

you must have missed Z-Wave. KNX looks a bit shopworn in comparision (for our usage patterns, I'm not talking about a some hundred floor office building).

br, Hari

[trentend]

you must have missed Z-Wave. KNX looks a bit shopworn in comparision (for our usage patterns, I'm not talking about a some hundred floor office building)....

I didn't miss z-wave. I imagine it might be good for retro-fit, or where wiring is not practicable.  As a technology, in terms of available devices, and aesthetically for the range of co-ordinated switches and sensors, I'd take KNX every day of the week - if I needed to add wireless devices I'd probably look to EnOcean before z-wave.  I'm not against integrating some z-wave devices, but availability where I am (UK) is poor and there's not a lot of useful choice.  Apart from the fact that the prices have gone up due to exchange rate fluctuation, KNX devices are highly available in Europe. It's all very personal, but I'm, really comfortable with my choice of KNX - I think it's a brilliant system, with great product diversity, and commercial level resilience.

I have trained on designing, programming and managing KNX projects, and I have the ETS software for programming the devices. I'll get involved and try to help better integrating the KNX system with LinuxMCE.

[sw25481]

Trentend

You have just described almost exactly the house I am in the process of building.  KNX going in for Heating and Lighting control, (I used Gira mainly from the nice chaps at KNXshop).  LinuxMCE, (or similar), in many rooms, speakers in a few others.  Not chosen the alarm yet but the Comfort is top of the list.  The builders are in at the moment, I have the KNX devices on site and the 1st fix cable is being run when they get back from the Xmas break.  Pretty much everything else in your description was so scarilly close I had to check I hadn't written the post myself and forgotten

I was drawn to Pluto Home for the KNX support and have been following LinuxMCE.  Not everyone understands the popularity of KNX in Europe, particularly Germany and the Netherlands.  In the UK they mainly use it for larger projects, (terminal 5 and Canary Wharf tube stations for example), but that has been changing a lot lately.  There are a few posts from others having some frustrations with it and a few people talking about contributing more capability, this seems like the best thread http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=5648.0

Vista Media Centre has better integration with mControl and Exdomus Pro and those new media extenders are a great silent solution for HD playback in your lounge & dining room, but if you were willing to put up with the pain and strife on Vista Media Centre you probably wouldn't be the kind of person on these forums, (my dirty secret is I am sometimes tempted).  If you want to contribute any KNX code to match VMC capabilities, all the better, I guess you will have some grateful users.  I'm in a kind of limbo state with my implementation until I can gain enough skills to make this work or find an alternative, (nothing yet has LinuxMCE's flexibility, but then I'm stuck without KNX)

The current range of Atom platforms, like the EEE are not really powerful enough for all HD content as the Intel Chipset isn't up to much.  You'll probably be OK with 720p, (which is pretty good), but those big HD downloads will stutter.  If you could hold off into the New year for the Atom based platforms with the Nvidia 9400M graphics you will be in a better position, (supported with the latest Beta Nvidia drivers).  Particularly if you want audio on your HDMI cable.  If you want to do that today you would need a Core 2 Nvidia system, (perhaps look at a Mini-ITX based one), and if you want that to be silent you are looking at HushPC and the like, which is big bucks.  Or if it is not too late, you can get HDMI Euro face plates and stick the PC's in the loft.

Touch screen drivers seem to be available for most devices, but UI2 is not considered a great fit for touch screens.  UI1 works great, but is not as pretty.  It is particularly good when the touch screen orbiter is actually just controlling another MD.

You can have your tuners in your Core or MD's or both for MythTV which works great in the UK, (been using if for 5 years).  Not sure of the advantages of VDR as I have not used it, but someone else has said tuners need to be in the core. 

LinuxMCE completely uses external storage.  I built my core a while ago and all my storage is connected to it via SATA, but I would probably have used NAS devices if I did it today

Keep in touch with the forum and let us know how you get on, (or get in touch directly).  Looks like you are going to be a few months ahead of my build and going through the issues I will before me so I'd be happy to help.


Couple of questions,

Did you go with DALI for your lights, (with one of the KNX-DALI gateways)?
Did you pay for the full version of ETS, or stick to the ETS Basic devices?
Have you looked at HomeServer from Gira?

Scott

[tityann]

hello
i am very interested in this post...
i have also chosen eib/knx (french user) for my house (building in 2009) because it is a wired protocol, i think wireless is not as sure as wired.And i am sure that KNX will be more implemented in linuxMCE in the future ( i read a post with linknx in linuxmce ?!?! )
i am also a VDR user , and i think it is very more stable than mythTV. And the VDR slave box in linuxMCE will also be included in the future ( I hope very much)
--- A question--- why is not used for VDR the VTP protocole with vdr-streamdev-server in the core and vdr-streamdec-client in each MD of the house
 thanks for the answer.

[totallymaxed]

You may want to read a bit farther, because yes. LinuxMCE can control devices itself in very complex ways that no current hardware solution can duplicate. However, your choice of KNX may have been a bit foolhardy. Our implementation of EIB/KNX is very basic.

Well we have a full implimentation that can be extended to do pretty much any KNX control you could possibly imagine; See here for info http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Bash_dce_knx

Yes, peripherals including tuner cards can be distributed to media directors as well as the core. But only for MythTV. VDR does not currently have this capability (it is a limitation of its basic design.).

Well this is not really a vdr limitiation so much as a limitation on the way vdr has been currently integrated into LinuxMCE... big changes coming in this area ;-)

For a simple audio interface to speakers, look at the Squeezebox. It can be used for both audio delivery and for announcement delivery out of the box. A Multi-zoned amplifier with appropriate control interface can also be used, but you will probably need to write a device template and corresponding GSD device.

From your own descriptions, it looks like you are in the UK, and therefore would be using VDR. You may also wish to speak to Totallymaxed and his company CHT solutions, as their market is your part of the globe.

Your more than welcome to contact me if you need some help/assistance...and we'd be happy to build/install a system for you too ;-)

[totallymaxed]

....You may want to read a bit farther, because yes. LinuxMCE can control devices itself in very complex ways that no current hardware solution can duplicate. However, your choice of KNX may have been a bit foolhardy. Our implementation of EIB/KNX is very basic......

Thanks for the response. I am in the UK, and I will look into what you say.  Yes it was my intention to use VDR, and I will probably be looking for a way of driving the outputs to the t-amp via sound cards, as a preference (core, or md's or dedicate hardware with lots of channel outputs). The trend audio external soundcards are nice, and I'm using one of those to give a nice clean output via a t-amp to Klipsch RB-61's.  If Linux supports more than one of those via the USB controller that may be a potential solution for me.

My choice of KNX is based on a number of factors.  Clearly it is a European based system, and less well supported in USA based software projects. However, in my view, it is very good. In fact I would go as far as to say that it is the best integrated control system in the market place.  It's superior to everything else available in my territory, and over the last five years I've researched them all.  I can program my KNX devices so they work, they will work without a controller, they will reset themselves after power cuts.  They can integrate a wider range of items than pretty much anything else.  You can send bus messages via pretty much every medium, including powerline, wireless and dedicated bus. I will only be using the dedicated bus.

I would only use LinuxMCE as a secondary level controller to change scenes, or instigate certain actions.  If there isn't a lot in place already, I guess that's an area that I will be contributing to the project, over time.  I've really looked at every other type of integrated automation system, and everything comes short of what KNX can do.  If it never becomes integrated into my LinuxMCE system it's not the end of the world.  I can program it to just work, using the alarm system and the integrated logic built into each device.  There are dedicated web controllers for KNX, and that is another possible avenue I can pursue.

I see LinuxMCE's big advantage in my situation as Audio/Video distribution.  If I can add in the other elements and get a totally integrated system, all the better, but my house is designed so that each sub-system works independently with no single point of failure. The devil will be in the integration, but there's a better chance with LinuxMCE, as far as I see it, than with any other project that I'm aware of.

We are installing both ZWave and KNX for customers currently. We like both to be frank. Hari has done an excellent job with his new open Zwave driver and we will be using that and contributing functionality and capability around that in the new year.#

We are also in the middle of a very large KNX installation for a customer in the London area - it has all the KNX features you have listed and probably a few more too ;-). We are installing our LinuxMCE-0710 based Dianemo software which will be used as a secondary controller for scene changes etc as you describe. See my earlier post to this thread for information on the Bash-KNX API we have developed. Our Bash-KNX is built on top of our DCE-Whisperer which is a DCE API written in Bash that makes building new DCE device interfaces easy (DCE-Whisperer is included in the Bash-KNX package). The Core is centrally racked in this installation, will include 3 x Freesat cards and will also control multiple external Sky-HD boxes and a 6x6 Kramer HDMI Video Matrix for routing the HD over Cat5 to multiple Screens and a large Home Cinema Projector installation. In this system we are using multiple ASUS Eee-box's (one mounted behind each display and running at 720p) and one Eee-Box in the rack for the Home Cinema. We also have a wall mounted Eee-Top touchscreen in the Kitchen area. We will also be using a Comfort alarm panel with a KNX interface.

The Eee-box will upscale SD content to 720p and also to 1080p but is not really suitable for playing true HD encoded content. However for upscaled SD it is really an excellent choice even when driving 2.5-3m wide projected Home Cinema installations. The Eee-Top is a great machine too but curently the only way to get this unit working is to use the Vesa driver and the Intel driver does not handle the backlight correctly currently. However the performance under the Vesa driver is adequate and we do expect that the Intel driver will get a fix for the backlight bug in the near future.

So in many ways this installation seems to match the one you are planning.

All the best for Xmas and the new year.

Andrew

[trentend]

.....Couple of questions,

Did you go with DALI for your lights, (with one of the KNX-DALI gateways)?
Did you pay for the full version of ETS, or stick to the ETS Basic devices?
Have you looked at HomeServer from Gira?

Scott

Thanks for the background, and suggestions.

I haven't implemented the electrical system yet (it's the big job remaining, and circumstances in the progression of the build and other external complications have meant this is the case),apart from the cabling. It is my intention to just use KNX actuators. All of my cabling comes back to a central wiring cabinet (it's actually a small 3m² room with locking double doors into the hall, and some equipment portals into the lounge and dining room so that A/V equipment is in the electrical cabinet but accessible from the living areas). Each light fitting, each socket, each alarm or speaker component, all have separate cables running directly back to the electrical cabinet/room.  I've done this so that I can wire these in any way that I choose.  The light fittings and sockets will come back to KNX actuators (effectively programmable relays or dimmers) and the switches are all wired to the low voltage KNX bus, so that they can be programmed to activate any (one or group) of the actuators.  The upstairs switches have built in temperature controllers to control the individual room radiators.

I have the full version of ETS and also a couple of the additional licences that allow everything except for printing (it might ultimately be nice to have this running as a virtual machine on one of my servers so that I can re-program the KNX devices whenever I want to).  I'm not of the view that you can make a satisfactory or cost efficient system using the ETS starter system. 

I've looked at homeserver, and it's an option that I may return to, but first I shall try to use LinuxMCE instead. If I go with comfort that can also send KNX control signals, and so can LinuxMCE......I don't really want another controller on the bus.

I had my KNX/ETS training at the splendid Ivory Egg/KNXShop peoples offices down on the south coast, and I shall purchase my stuff from them.

[trentend]

We are installing both ZWave and KNX for customers currently. We like both to be frank. Hari has done an excellent job with his new open Zwave driver and we will be using that and contributing functionality and capability around that in the new year.#

I'm not doubting that z-wave is good, but I'll take a good wired system over a good wireless system every day of the week.

We are also in the middle of a very large KNX installation for a customer in the London area - it has all the KNX features you have listed and probably a few more too ;-). We are installing our LinuxMCE-0710 based Dianemo software which will be used as a secondary controller for scene changes etc as you describe. See my earlier post to this thread for information on the Bash-KNX API we have developed. Our Bash-KNX is built on top of our DCE-Whisperer which is a DCE API written in Bash that makes building new DCE device interfaces easy (DCE-Whisperer is included in the Bash-KNX package). The Core is centrally racked in this installation, will include 3 x Freesat cards and will also control multiple external Sky-HD boxes and a 6x6 Kramer HDMI Video Matrix for routing the HD over Cat5 to multiple Screens and a large Home Cinema Projector installation. In this system we are using multiple ASUS Eee-box's (one mounted behind each display and running at 720p) and one Eee-Box in the rack for the Home Cinema. We also have a wall mounted Eee-Top touchscreen in the Kitchen area. We will also be using a Comfort alarm panel with a KNX interface.

I also have a central wiring room/cabinet.  In my case it's about 0.8m wide and just over 3m long. It stretches under the stairs and at the two ends it touches the lounge and the dining room.  I mount all my A/V equipment in hatches into the electrical room, and all the cables return there.  Consequently all of my wiring is terminated in that cabinet/room (which also houses a 46U rack).  There's a lot of wire, but it leaves the whole system very flexible and easy to rewire or reprogram.

The Eee-box will upscale SD content to 720p and also to 1080p but is not really suitable for playing true HD encoded content. However for upscaled SD it is really an excellent choice even when driving 2.5-3m wide projected Home Cinema installations. The Eee-Top is a great machine too but curently the only way to get this unit working is to use the Vesa driver and the Intel driver does not handle the backlight correctly currently. However the performance under the Vesa driver is adequate and we do expect that the Intel driver will get a fix for the backlight bug in the near future.

Thanks for that information.  For the large full HD screens in the lounge and dining room I have MD's mounted in my electrical cabinet (accessible from the respective rooms). I have a 28" 1080p screen that I was planning on using as a portable with a eee box.  I might try building a custom MD to handle full HD for this.  I'm very tempted by the eee top's for portable controllers/integrated MD's.  I'll probably buy one and have a play.

So in many ways this installation seems to match the one you are planning.

All the best for Xmas and the new year.

Andrew

Thanks for that.  I imagine it's a project that's going to take me a while.  It should be fun.  The fact that all of my systems work independently means that the integration is icing on the top, rather than critical.  I'll be playing over time to try to get everything working together.  It should be fun.

[totallymaxed]

We are installing both ZWave and KNX for customers currently. We like both to be frank. Hari has done an excellent job with his new open Zwave driver and we will be using that and contributing functionality and capability around that in the new year.#

I'm not doubting that z-wave is good, but I'll take a good wired system over a good wireless system every day of the week.

The customer I mention here with the KNX installation that we are currently installing was already partway through installing the bus wiring when we got involved and so there was a good reason for going KNX. However we are seeing 75% of our customers decide to go the ZWave route at this end of the market when they weigh up all the pluses. Reliability wise we see no issue at all with ZWave as the Mesh network it forms improves as the number of devices increases. In terms of latency & speed we see very little difference in the two either - the difference is marginal at best. In terms of installation cost ZWave wins hands down to be frank as there is no cabling to be run and the individual devices are for the most part less expensive than KNX equivalents - in addition the flexibility to extend/add/change your ZWave network without limitation is an immensely powerful benefit to us and our customers.

All the best

Andrew

[Marie.O]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a limit to 232 devices in a Z-Wave installation? Isn't it likely that a slightly larger installation might hit this barrier sooner or later?

If my information is correct, I would say KNX does make sense on larger homes (if you are building new), and Z-Wave makes sense in retrofitted, small to regular sized homes.

rgds
Oliver

[trentend]

We are installing both ZWave and KNX for customers currently. We like both to be frank. Hari has done an excellent job with his new open Zwave driver and we will be using that and contributing functionality and capability around that in the new year.#

I'm not doubting that z-wave is good, but I'll take a good wired system over a good wireless system every day of the week.

The customer I mention here with the KNX installation that we are currently installing was already partway through installing the bus wiring when we got involved and so there was a good reason for going KNX. However we are seeing 75% of our customers decide to go the KNX route at this end of the market when they weigh up all the pluses. Reliability wise we see no issue at all with ZWave as the Mesh network it forms improves as the number of devices increases. In terms of latency & speed we see very little difference in the two either - the difference is marginal at best. In terms of installation cost ZWave wins hands down to be frank as there is no cabling to be run and the individual devices are for the most part less expensive than KNX equivalents - in addition the flexibility to extend/add/change your ZWave network without limitation is an immensely powerful benefit to us and our customers.

All the best

Andrew

I'm sure your knowledge and experience of implementation outcomes exceeds mine, and I'm happy to defer to you on that. I come from an old school perspective on networking (I'm a systems manager in "real life"). I always prefer a physical wiring solution over a wireless solution.  It has higher bandwidth (potentially), lower latency, no blackspots, can be used to transmit power as well as bus messages, is less susceptible to interference, and is not subject to significant EMI.

I do not suggest that KNX is a cheap solution, but it really is a quality one, with a wide range of support and compelling advantages.

It's entirely feasible that I will add additional devices using wireless technologies (I am particularly compelled by enocean devices that require no power supply), but this will be to add devices where my wiring scheme has not accommodated unforeseen requirements.  I have a similar view when it comes to networking.  I would always hard wire, over wireless, given the choice.

I may be misguided, and I've no doubt that solutions that you suggest can be resilient and effective.  I just have a preference to wired over wireless for technical reasons. As an example I can attach KNX valves to turn on (and off) radiators through KNX valves. The bus pair in the KNX cable carries the bus signal, and the spare pair carries the power. I have allowed for that in my KNX bus wiring scheme.  How would you do that with z-wave?  Because the KNX bus can operate on a tree topology it becomes relatively easy to add devices in at any location where a cable passes near by.  I like physical connections. I'm not against using wireless technology, but I would favour running a LinuxMCE distribution over a physical network, and I feel the same about my electrical and control devices. Of course wireless allows a flexibility that is invaluable in situations where cables cannot reasonably be run.  Horses for courses.

[totallymaxed]

I may be misguided, and I've no doubt that solutions that you suggest can be resilient and effective.  I just have a preference to wired over wireless for technical reasons. As an example I can attach KNX valves to turn on (and off) radiators through KNX valves. The bus pair in the KNX cable carries the bus signal, and the spare pair carries the power. I have allowed for that in my KNX bus wiring scheme.  How would you do that with z-wave?  Because the KNX bus can operate on a tree topology it becomes relatively easy to add devices in at any location where a cable passes near by.  I like physical connections. I'm not against using wireless technology, but I would favour running a LinuxMCE distribution over a physical network, and I feel the same about my electrical and control devices. Of course wireless allows a flexibility that is invaluable in situations where cables cannot reasonably be run.  Horses for courses.

Well for radiator control we use; http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Danfoss_RA-plus-w No cables & a plumber is all thats required ;-). After attaching them to your radiators walk around your house and press the 'include' button on each RA-Plus-W to add it to your ZWave network and thats pretty much it. No need to allow for this before hand... add them initially or later it makes no difference (other than getting the plumber back ;-)  ). Same goes for a lot of other ZWave devices... need another light switch/dimmer in your bedroom for the garden lighting but didn't realise it until after you finished installing... no problem surface mount on a wall a battery (5 year life) powered, non-load baring, remote switch/dimmer and then press the 'include' button and 'pair' it with the garden lights. Job done.

As I have said already we install both KNX & ZWave for our customers so we work with both technologies. But based on experience I can say that a properly configured ZWave installation can perform in all ways as well as a KNX one. So then, if you ignore overall cost, it comes down to non-technical issues like the flexibility post-install and physical size/appearance of devices such as wall plates, switches, PIR's etc and which of these you prefer.

In your case of course you have KNX bus cabling in place and already have a load of KNX devices & your comfortable with it so go with that - take a look at our Bash-KNX package for 0710.

All the best

Andrew