Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality

[tschak909]

Dude, if you're a developer and you can't read source code...

...you need to learn more before ever tackling a system like LinuxMCE.

hmm.

Give me a break, guys. Yes, this documentation assumes you are capable of inductive and deductive reasoning and being able to think for yourself.

Yes, port 3450 is mentioned.. but which? use a port scanning program, or lsof, or hell, just guess. It's either/or, isn't it? and when you figure it out, guess what? YOU PUT IT IN THE DOCS! IT'S A WIKI! OPEN COLLABORATION FOR ALL.

I do NOT have time for people who willingly refuse to learn, and I am sorry, spoon feeding is NOT learning. I have no time to spoon feed developers who MAY or MAY NOT contrbute later. You all feel as if you are ENTITLED to being lead by the hand. I have news for all of us. We are entitled to NOTHING in this life. Not even Living. Even that is a gift, so we should all consider ourselves lucky, and make the most of it.

I hate replying in this manner, because it paints me out to be the asshole. However, I need to make one thing exceedingly clear. I bend over backwards to those who try and put in effort and initiative. How do I determine those people? by the questions they ask. The more specific the question you ask, the more specific my answers will be. Those of you who have taken the time to learn know this to be true of me.

Stop being children. I am not your father figure. Grow up and take some initiative.

-Thom

[tschak909]

With that said... the code can be run through doxygen to produce api docs. After the 0810 release, I will personally set up a section on the builder to generate those documents to be placed on a public web server.

Unless somebody wants to take this task.

-Thom

[wierdbeard65]

I didn't say I couldn't read the source code. What I said was that given DoxyGen is there, I shouldn'd need to!!!

I have to ask, have you actually READ most of the posts here? You devs who have posted need to decide what you actually want. Help or stress. It's THAT simple!

Let me use an analogy. If you invitred me to visit. Wouldn't you tell me how to find you? Or would you expect me to Google your post-code, find the nearest airport. Risk getting a hotel in a rough part of town and then just hope I can find the correct street? No, you already know that stuff so you'd save me the pain and tell me which airport, recommend a hotel and probably offer to come and pick me up.

Documentation is as much a part of development as coding is. Systems like DoxyGen semi-automate the process, to make it as least-hassle as possible.

I'm beginning to suspect that all this resistance is because all the documentation is in the heads of the developers and not in ANY way written down.

Earlier in this thread you said "ask specific questions". I just did "TCP or UDP" and did I get a straight answer, no. I was basically told to f**k off and work it out for myself. Quite frankly, if that is the attitude of the core devs, then you guys don't deserve any help or additional devs to join the team.

Andrew, you said it wasn't about a "rite of passage". You are wrong. There would only appear to be 5 people on this planet with the neccessary skills to develop for MCE, by the definition of those 5 people! If the only way to gain entry to the inner sanctum is to unpick the source code and not ask questions (the rite of passage) then you will be VERY lucky to find a number 6.

For crying out loud you guys. WHY the resistence to DOCUMENTATION? WHAT are you HIDING? Documentation is NOT spoon-feeding, Thom!

[wierdbeard65]

With that said... the code can be run through doxygen to produce api docs. After the 0810 release, I will personally set up a section on the builder to generate those documents to be placed on a public web server.

Unless somebody wants to take this task.

-Thom

You posted while I was typing my response.

That would be most helpful, but wouldn't it be even more helpful to take the time to add this to the build process now?

[hari]

* hari gets some popcorn.. (but not to feed any trolls)

[tschak909]

With that said... the code can be run through doxygen to produce api docs. After the 0810 release, I will personally set up a section on the builder to generate those documents to be placed on a public web server.

Unless somebody wants to take this task.

-Thom

You posted while I was typing my response.

That would be most helpful, but wouldn't it be even more helpful to take the time to add this to the build process now?

See, this is the problem...

Why doesn't somebody take to doing this? we're all stretched as it is, and there is nothing preventing you from checking out the source code, and running doxygen on it.

If you want it, come to the #linuxmce-devel channel and work with us, and we'll give you what you need to add this to our servers so it can be available for everyone.

If everyone expects someone else to do something, that something will never get done. It's that simple.

SO STEP UP.

-Thom

[wierdbeard65]

See, this is the problem...

Why doesn't somebody take to doing this? we're all stretched as it is, and there is nothing preventing you from checking out the source code, and running doxygen on it.

If you want it, come to the #linuxmce-devel channel and work with us, and we'll give you what you need to add this to our servers so it can be available for everyone.

If everyone expects someone else to do something, that something will never get done. It's that simple.

SO STEP UP.

-Thom

Ok, as soon as I have my development rig set up, I'll head on over. If I can help by adding this, then I'll consider my contributions have started 

[totallymaxed]

I didn't say I couldn't read the source code. What I said was that given DoxyGen is there, I shouldn'd need to!!!

I have to ask, have you actually READ most of the posts here? You devs who have posted need to decide what you actually want. Help or stress. It's THAT simple!

Let me use an analogy. If you invitred me to visit. Wouldn't you tell me how to find you? Or would you expect me to Google your post-code, find the nearest airport. Risk getting a hotel in a rough part of town and then just hope I can find the correct street? No, you already know that stuff so you'd save me the pain and tell me which airport, recommend a hotel and probably offer to come and pick me up.

Documentation is as much a part of development as coding is. Systems like DoxyGen semi-automate the process, to make it as least-hassle as possible.

I'm beginning to suspect that all this resistance is because all the documentation is in the heads of the developers and not in ANY way written down.

Earlier in this thread you said "ask specific questions". I just did "TCP or UDP" and did I get a straight answer, no. I was basically told to f**k off and work it out for myself. Quite frankly, if that is the attitude of the core devs, then you guys don't deserve any help or additional devs to join the team.

Andrew, you said it wasn't about a "rite of passage". You are wrong. There would only appear to be 5 people on this planet with the neccessary skills to develop for MCE, by the definition of those 5 people! If the only way to gain entry to the inner sanctum is to unpick the source code and not ask questions (the rite of passage) then you will be VERY lucky to find a number 6.

For crying out loud you guys. WHY the resistence to DOCUMENTATION? WHAT are you HIDING? Documentation is NOT spoon-feeding, Thom!

If you spent less time here moaning about what you think we 'dont' have and more time actually working through the system and trying to develop small improvements to it we all might benefit. I'm sorry the documentation is not too your liking...but of course you can personally fix that and show us all what good docs are all about ;-)

All the 'super human' elitist Devs hang out every day on irc in the #linuxmce-devel channel... development related questions are welcome there.

Andrew

[wierdbeard65]

I'm sorry the documentation is not too your liking...but of course you can personally fix that and show us all what good docs are all about ;-)

Sorry, but errr, what documentation exactly? An architectural overview and "read the source code". That isn't the way to get more developers, experienced or otherwise, on board. THAT was the point I was making.

Anyhow, Thom has made a reasonable suggestion, and I have made what I consider to be a reasonable response.

[tschak909]

Well um..

You know those little footers at the bottom of each developer page on the wiki?

You know the ones that say Category:Programmers Guide?

If you click on that, you get....

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Category:Programmer%27s_Guide

and while it's not perfect..and some of it isn't completely up to date.. It is relevant.

-Thom

[wierdbeard65]

Well um..

You know those little footers at the bottom of each developer page on the wiki?

You know the ones that say Category:Programmers Guide?

If you click on that, you get....

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Category:Programmer%27s_Guide

and while it's not perfect..and some of it isn't completely up to date.. It is relevant.

-Thom

Ok, I can admit when I'm wrong  . I didn't spot that link (I don't tend to navigate wiki's using the categories links at the bottom  ) I'll start reading and see where it takes me.

Roll on the really good Noob users's guide that's been promised

[MarcoZan]

Dude, if you're a developer and you can't read source code...

...you need to learn more before ever tackling a system like LinuxMCE.

hmm.

Give me a break, guys. Yes, this documentation assumes you are capable of inductive and deductive reasoning and being able to think for yourself.

Yes, port 3450 is mentioned.. but which? use a port scanning program, or lsof, or hell, just guess. It's either/or, isn't it? and when you figure it out, guess what? YOU PUT IT IN THE DOCS! IT'S A WIKI! OPEN COLLABORATION FOR ALL.

I do NOT have time for people who willingly refuse to learn, and I am sorry, spoon feeding is NOT learning. I have no time to spoon feed developers who MAY or MAY NOT contrbute later. You all feel as if you are ENTITLED to being lead by the hand. I have news for all of us. We are entitled to NOTHING in this life. Not even Living. Even that is a gift, so we should all consider ourselves lucky, and make the most of it.

I hate replying in this manner, because it paints me out to be the asshole. However, I need to make one thing exceedingly clear. I bend over backwards to those who try and put in effort and initiative. How do I determine those people? by the questions they ask. The more specific the question you ask, the more specific my answers will be. Those of you who have taken the time to learn know this to be true of me.

Stop being children. I am not your father figure. Grow up and take some initiative.

-Thom

Better clarify what I myself was meaning by "spoon feeding" as I suspect that it may differs from what you mean.

I was referring to a possible series of workshop/screencast/similar things on well defined areas known as though ones, that in my opinion could have helped to boost a bit the learning process and possibly to reduce the required time to be somehow ready to go.
In my places they say " when too hot and dry, also hail is welcome".
I simply thought that as no experienced devs heve been stepping up so far, a way to speed up novices could at least be considered of some utility.
It was not meant as a replacement of the usual learning path, but a way to help willing people to accelerate and find earlier their way around.
Am I wrong? Maybe you have better vision and elements to judge. If you say it's a bad idea, that's fine for me.

I took the liberty to insist as this is exactly what has already been done (with good results) with HADesigner, with GSD, and what probably will be done with Datagrids. Never thought this was "spoon feeding" in the worst sense of the word.

Anyway I'm sorry to see that this kind of proposal have been systematically interpreted as laziness/intention to "manage" things/whatever similar thing you may have thought instead.

It was simply a way (maybe naive) to try and counteract the cronical lack of devs.

Marco

[wierdbeard65]

* hari gets some popcorn.. (but not to feed any trolls)

ROFLMAO 

[davegravy]

This thread started as an expression of frustration due to the situation with resources. The devs seem to have indicated they are not open to a change in direction or organization. I think it must therefore be accepted that there will be no relief for the devs, since to expect a different result without a change in approach would be insane (as defined by Einstein).

With this in mind, are there examples of wildly successful open source projects that are as big as linuxmce, that rely exclusively on self-motivated developers, and that have 5 developers pulling everything together? I’m not aware of any, so please enlighten me if there are. If there are not, what makes the devs think that linuxmce will be an exception? I am assuming there is a desire to make linuxmce wildly successful.

The way I see it, the devs can continue on the current path and achieve 50 units of progress in the short term and 1,000 units of progress in the long term. Or, they can increase their documentation/training efforts in the short term (at the expense of development efforts) to achieve 5 units of progress in the short term and 10,000 units of progress in the long term.

It's an accessibility investment that is urgently needed. If the investment is made to make this project accessible to the 100s of people who have 1-10 spare hours a week,  the invested time will pay for itself over and over and over.

I urge the developers to open their minds to this.

[tschak909]

I would agree with this, if no documentation were being written.

But there is an unbelievable amount of documentation being written _WHILE_ development is being done, and even before, when Pluto was in control.

Why don't you actually look at what's on the wiki, in the programmer's guide, for example?

I am VERY tired of people shit talking the documentation, when they haven't even looked at it! (This much keeps being proven true!)

I know it's not perfect, but we're trying to make it better, and it's EVERYONE'S responsibility to do so, not just ours. This does not mean everybody sit on their ass while the devs stop to write all the documentation, or any similar gradients thereof.

-Thom