LinuxMCE Forums
General => Installation issues => Topic started by: jrsy85 on March 05, 2008, 06:12:50 am
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Hi Guys,
I know this is weird but i'm having the opposite trouble of a lot of people, i can access the internet over my wireless router but i cannot actually ping the router or any computer on my network. i have a speedstream adsl modem plugged into a tp-link wireless router. i can ping the adsl modem but not the router??? any thoughts on how i can access the network, i would like to access my media server.
I am running linuxmce 0710 Beta 3 on a HP NC8000 laptop
Thanks :)
Joel
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Sounds like ICMP replies are disabled inside your wifi router. This is a very common option, and very common to default to "disabled" also. Pinging shouldn't matter anyways, just because your not getting a ping reply doesn't nescessarily mean your network isn't working. Although you did mention not being able to ping other machines, that again can also be an option in the router. I have seen an option before that said something along the lines of "Isolate each computer [yes/no]" I don't remember which brand had that option, I vaguely remember calling it a piece of shit brand when I did play with it, just can't remember the name.
Don't forget the typical stuff, turn off all firewalls (because your router is the access point and it has a firewall, keeping firewall turned on the individual machines is just plain redundant.)
Thorough check all the options in your wifi router, if you see an option you don't understand, google it.
To clear this up a little, what does your wifi router have to do with linuxmce? I'm not being a smartass, i'm actually honestly trying to figure out if your having a problem BECAUSE you installed lmce, or if this problem is unrelated to installing lmce....
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I am part way through figuring this out, I had my wireless router as my external interface and my 10/100 as my internal. i have a wireless router i use as my DHCP server that my 4 windows machine attach to it. how can i set linuxmce to just access the router and beome part of the network, i don't want it to take control and become dhcp. i just want it to connect to the wireless router automatically, without having to type "sudo -s" "iwconfig eth1 essid "TP-LINK" key **********" and sudo dhclient eth1 in kde every time i boot.
I really do appreciate the help
Joel
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disable the dhcp server startup script in /etc/init.d
thats all I had to do, then connected eth0 to my network, only problem was I had to manually create my windows shares because it didn't seem the network share discovery script was looking on my external nic for shares...
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I'm not sure I understand what is connected to what here! But, either way, you don't need to disable the LMCE DHCP server to allow another DHCP server on your external network to work - it only services your internal network anyway. Couple of questions -
1 - have you got 2 physical networks (internal and external in the LMCE terminology) each connected to a different NIC on the LMCE core?
2 - when you say "router" can you distinguish them so we understand which one? So ADSL router/modem; wireless router/access point; LMCE router? Also, I note that wireless access points are usually just switches unless they have a broadband function as well and that makes a big difference to how you set up the network... so it is important only to call something a router if it actually is one otherwise it will confuse matters.
3 - you say that your core's external interface is connected to your wireless router... what then is the wireless router attached to? The ADSL modem? Its sounding more and more like your wireless device is actually a switch.... but I am having difficulty visualising the setup given the description....
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maybe I should ellaborate on my suggestion.
remove the extra nic, you'll then have a eth0 and an eth0:0... by default, eth0:0 will have your internal gateway address, and the dhcp server will provide an ip to eth0 and any other device connected to the network through your eth0 card. I don't know if this behavior is intentional or a bug, or a fluke on just my machines, but every single nic box i've built tries to use it's on dhcp server for getting ip instead of my existing router.
with only 1 nic, disable the dhcp server and either set your eth0 ip address manually, or allow your already existing dhcp server to assign one. i'd go with setting it statically since a lmce box isn't really something that doesn't get moved around...
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Actually, I think it is just the nature of DHCP and subinterfaces - DHCP uses an Ethernet broadcast, which will be visible on both the main interface and subinterface. So even though the DHCP server is supposed to be serving the internal network only, the DHCP request from the external interface will still make it there, and so screw up your network connectivity if you are using different subnets for "internal" and "external".... it also means that you will see the strange behaviour of the DHCP-PnP system "discovering" itself as a fileserver, and ask you if you want to add it! It appears as DCEROUTER of course and can be a bit confusing. You should definitely so no, and don't ask again to this...
If the external and internal subnets are the same, you have one NIC, and you configure the LMCE DHCP server so that the gateway is your "real" router (say, the broadband router) as opposed to itself. Then turn off all other DHCP servers other than the LMCE one, you should have a network that works, doesn't push all the external traffic through the core, lets you add wireless APs, but LMCE's PnP system will still work. You won't have QoS for your telephony, and it may cause obscure problems because LMCE doesn't understand its own topology... but it should work OK. But definitely no VLANs...
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Actually, I think it is just the nature of DHCP and subinterfaces - DHCP uses an Ethernet broadcast, which will be visible on both the main interface and subinterface. So even though the DHCP server is supposed to be serving the internal network only, the DHCP request from the external interface will still make it there, and so screw up your network connectivity if you are using different subnets for "internal" and "external".... it also means that you will see the strange behaviour of the DHCP-PnP system "discovering" itself as a fileserver, and ask you if you want to add it! It appears as DCEROUTER of course and can be a bit confusing. You should definitely so no, and don't ask again to this...
that is what i figured.
If the external and internal subnets are the same, you have one NIC, and you configure the LMCE DHCP server so that the gateway is your "real" router (say, the broadband router) as opposed to itself. Then turn off all other DHCP servers other than the LMCE one, you should have a network that works, doesn't push all the external traffic through the core, lets you add wireless APs, but LMCE's PnP system will still work. You won't have QoS for your telephony, and it may cause obscure problems because LMCE doesn't understand its own topology... but it should work OK. But definitely no VLANs...
I think it's personal preference, but i'd rather use the DHCP server on my existing router/firewall/linuxbox/whatever if it's been proving to work reliably and remain stable. Splitting your dependencies for internet connectivity should be a very HUGE no no. I would disable the lmce dhcp server. If not, then something happens to your lmce box, it's off, it's got a broken install, whatever, now your stuck taking extra steps to manually assign ip's to the other computers on your network to get internet connectivity while you repair your lmce box. That is just one scenario of splitting your gateways responsibilities up.
I will admit i'm not too sure if disabling lmce's dhcp server will break it's device management, like for net shares, and definately no booting MD's without modifying your other DHCP server settings to point it in the right direction for it's boot kernel and filesystem. So I see it as a toss up, if you don't plan on use MD's then i'd disable the lmce dhcp.
We use vlans in our datacenters, and can understand why they are needed in an enterprise environment, hell i maintain our switches, but why would home users want to use vlans? other than they have too much money and time and just feel like buying expensive cisco switches that support vlans...
I mean, whatever on all counts really, it comes down to personal preference, collin and I have put all the relevant information you need to make a sound decision on your network config... have fun...
I will leave this thread with my setup.
_____ ___________ _____________________________ ___________
|Inet| - |Cablemodem| - |Firewall Box/Wifi/Router/Whatever| - |Computer 1|
----- ------------- --------------------------------- -------------
^Running DHCP server^ | Computer 2|
Configured to serve MDs ----------------
|LinuxeMCE Box| < 1 Network card, DHCP disabled
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Like I said, doing it like that requires some extra configuration to get diskless booting media directors to work. I might make a wiki entry on how to do this one day when I run out of lmce stuff to troubleshoot.
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The biggest no no of all is not using LMCE as your internal DHCP server ...period! Yes, it will completely disable your PnP, netboot and the device management system. LMCE uses this to understand what devices are available etc. Simple - don't do it! Once your system gets its knickers in a knot, you will never untangle them! Just accept it as the DHCP server - I have never read a post yet that describes a network configuration that requires it be disabled (read plenty that it was clear the person just didn't want to use it, and tried to workaround it ...) Don't assume it is just a vanilla DHCP server, it isn't it is an integral part of how LMCE works. May be working at the moment ... but you won't be happy in a few months time when you try to make a simple change or addition to your LMCE network and it all falls in a heap and you need to rebuild :)
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lol ok
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I disagree, but okay.. what do I know? I've only looked at every square inch of the code....
-Thom
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Disagree with who TSCHAK? Because I have 3 systems in different houses currently running with disabled DHCP servers and everything has been detected perfectly so far. MD's work after some tinkering with my other DHCP server to point clients to the right server for the remote filesystems, etc... I even have OpenVPN setup on all 3, and all 3 houses share each others media shares... even the remote shares at the other houses are automatically detected once I configured OpenVPN for encrypted tunnel method (not bridging) and adding the appropiate routes to each network gateway...
So, what deetection scripts rely on DHCP? I have also looked through all the scripts, most detection happens through NetBIOS names, not the DHCP server. Are there other devices that depend on it? Like i said, my MD's work fine after some tinkering with my other DHCP server. Let's see, network shares all work and detected just fine without dhcp. It never detected my IP camera with dhcp enabled, so I assume that is a manual setup only deal. Am I missing any other kind of network related devices that are autodetected other than network shares and MDs? Maybe those cisco phones, since i'm never going to mess with that, my wireless plan can beat any hardwired or voip plan i've seen so far so thats pointless unless i want to waste a bunch of money on an orbiter/phone hybrid device... seems like a waste... All the automation stuff isn't network related.... I admit I have not gotten very far with all the equipment lmce supports. the only stuff I plan on messing with, i've already got running so far. network shares, ip camera with motion detection, openvpn, bluetooth phone orbiter, lighting control, and 1 MD.
I seriously don't understand you guys... I mean, I come in here because I liked the product and wanted to contribute my troubleshooting skills. For starters my file shares didn't work correctly out of the box, but you guys defend it as if there was something wrong with my setup. It turned out to be a different in how the wizard asks for user/pass between UI1 and UI2/3... later to find out if you use !@#...etc symbols in the pass, lmce won't mount that either. I had to resolve this issue with some guidance from the community, and after reviewing the huge post, it had nothing to do with my setup or hardware, it was the unreliable nature of the detection scripts and device wizards.
Then myth would lock up, and from what I understand this was a big problem among alot of users. It happen to be the way mythtv was called from the MythTV_Player plugin, I had to modify and recompile the code, and it was accepted as an official fix and applied to the code.
Do I need to write the guide now, so you guys can see how it's done? It's nothing special, with only 1 network card, you give both eth0 and eth0:0 different IP addresses but in the same subnet, for example 192.168.0.100 for eth0 and 192.168.0.101 for eth0:0, then disable dhcp server and everything works perfectly.
But i've got people telling me it's not possible?
You guys are kind of hostile when it comes to what you "think" is right... the word of the day should be "open-minded" and not "i'm right all the time because i've got green stars on my name"....
tschak, I found this comment you made in another post...
(b) use the Single NIC configuration defined in the wiki. However, if you turn off DHCP, you lose network plug and play, and will have to define all of your network resources in the Web Admin manually.
Except this was a response to another person posts saying this
3. All my media is stored on a network file server. I have read on the forums here that this is supported out of the box. I wish this was correct. In order to even get the MC to even detect the file server, I had to disable the DHCP server and Firewall (already have one, at a loss as to why there is one installed by default). Now the MC detects the server and the shares,
Did you miss the part where he said he disabled his DHCP server and then it was detected? His share still didn't work, but he says it picked it up.
and in the same post, he repeated
Once I disable the DHCP Server and the Firewall the system, the system stops trying to act as a router and automatically detects the file server and all of the network shares
reference: http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=3429.0 (http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=3429.0)
You guys crack me up, i'm searching through other threads as i'm writing this, and I see soooooo many people talking about how lmce HAS to have dhcp running to detect anything, and it HAS to be setup as it was intended.... this is total bullshit... have any of you guys even tried? wow this is ridiculus, I can't believe so many of the contributing devs believe this, is there something i'm missing? I mean seriously... i'm sitting here, watching my shit work perfectly fine without dhcp ont he lmce box. If I am wrong, then please explain/elaborate because i'd love to know why i have 3 boxes and 2 virtual machines detecting shit just fine without a dhcp server running.
Look, I have 3 production lmce box's, and 2 boxes in a vmware machine, and all 5 of these has dhcp disabled and all 5 of them also detect all my network shares AND configures them perfectly.
Here is another set of quotations from a thread where I solved the guys problem for him. He started off saying
How do I open the external interface on the core for file sharing?
My core is on our internal network. I have the external interface obtaining an address from our router and the internal interface connected to an independant switch that all the MD's are connected to.
I advised him to disable his firewall and he responds with
Works beautifully, thanks.
now in retrospect, he says his automatic detection of network shares on his external interface works beautifully now... well his externel interface certainly isn't serving DHCP address, so why did his network shares get detected? simple, because it used Netbios names not the DHCP server to find shares.
reference: http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4636.0 (http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4636.0)
here is a thread where they discussed disabling dhcp, and never showed back up to report problems...
Go to the webadmin page, then go to Advanced > Network > Network Settings. From there you can unselect the DHCP server and save the page to finish the job. Had the same problem, the installer seemed to ignore my request that it not be a dhcp server.
reference: http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=1298.0 (http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=1298.0)
here is another
I just didnt understand why MCE is trying to setup 2 IPs with one card, especially since I turned off DHCP server on the MCE machine.
I think im good though.
this thread also discussed disabling dhcp, and they appeared to be satisfied also.
reference: http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=2080.0 (http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=2080.0)
Then I found this in /usr/pluto/bin the file Dhcpd-Plugin.sh and in that file I see
/usr/bin/tail -F /var/log/syslog | grep --line-buffered 'dhcpd: ' | bash -x /usr/pluto/bin/Dhcpd-Plugin-Parser.sh
So I understand how dhcp is SUPPOSED to help the pnp functions... by calling dhcpd-plugin-parses.sh when it sees a new dhcpd request from the syslog. So to make sure i'm not making myself look like a fool here, I deleted all my network shares (by the way, to get them fully deleted so they'll be detected again and not ignored, I have to manually use somthing like phpmyadmin to delete the shares/fileservers ip address from plut_main -> pnpqueue table.) enabled my dhcp server, and watching /var/log/pluto/dhcp_pnp.log, this file remained empty as I was adding my automatically deteced network share... so with my next fileserver I watched the syslog for dhcpd entries just like the script is, when I saw a dhcpd entry for my second fileserver that booted up, I checked the /var/log/pluto/dhcp_pnp.log and again still empty, so I watched top, and never even saw the script being called... is this an old feature or something? Maybe this is just to help determine if a device is online or not? Or is it used for detecting other kinds of network devices like I mentioned earlier.
For the normal user who will probably only want to use the TVTuner, Remote Network Shares, this configuration of mine will work perfectly. Beyond that, as I said to start with, i'm not sure. But the basics... network share detection, works great. In fact, after reviewing /usr/pluto/bin/StorageDevices_SambaRadar.sh and /usr/plut/bin/StorageDevices_Radar.sh reveal no depencies on the dhcp server... and in fact, it's using netbios names, and a for loop using the current subnet to ping ip's. Not dhcp.
Besides, after research all this, I already see a very simple way to enable an external DHCP server AND retain lmce pnp function as you guys claim.
If those scripts are operating the way I think, then using an NFS share exported from the machine where the DHCP server is running, with the dhcp configuration files, the lease file, and the syslog all residing on this exported share... then mount it under lmce, create symbolic links for the dhchp server config files and leases file... then point the script I mentioned to the nfsmountedshare/syslog instead of it's own.... eh.. just a wild stab in the dark...
back on subject... this is neither a rant or a rave, this is a plea for you guys to understand the most common function of network shares is NOT affected by the dhcp server... and I would honestly like to know what is, in case I run into this problem in the future with other network based devices.
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@orionsune:
I also ran lmce without dhcp for some weeks. When you search the forum I even came up with a solution to use arpwatch to feed the dhcp log parser.
Yes, if one is skilled as you, of course you can run lmce without dhcp. If you trigger device detection, create records on the other dhcp server and use things like next-server statements you will have a working system. But that setup is not for the newbie. They will wonder why the plugged in squeezebox don't work or why the cisco phone does not configure itself.
So I'm sure you understand why the general recommendation is to use LMCE as dhcp server. And its the only way to have this beast working as an appliance.
Now I use LMCE as dhcp server.. i have enough hazzle with IT at work.. so why make my life harder. LMCE handles that pretty good. And if you are that skilled it's easy to seperate networks and make a distinct vlan for lmce.
best regards,
Hari
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and thanks for that myth patch! Keep up the great work!
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@orionsune:
I also ran lmce without dhcp for some weeks. When you search the forum I even came up with a solution to use arpwatch to feed the dhcp log parser.
Yes, if one is skilled as you, of course you can run lmce without dhcp. If you trigger device detection, create records on the other dhcp server and use things like next-server statements you will have a working system. But that setup is not for the newbie. They will wonder why the plugged in squeezebox don't work or why the cisco phone does not configure itself.
So I'm sure you understand why the general recommendation is to use LMCE as dhcp server. And its the only way to have this beast working as an appliance.
Now I use LMCE as dhcp server.. i have enough hazzle with IT at work.. so why make my life harder. LMCE handles that pretty good. And if you are that skilled it's easy to seperate networks and make a distinct vlan for lmce.
best regards,
Hari
But hari, what i'm trying to say, is I have not done any of that. The only modification I had to make, was my actual dhcp server setup to serve MD's and use LMCE box's filesystem instead of it's own. I've made no other modification, and my shares were still detected fine. I guess I was trying to say, for the normal user who will never get as far as using ip phones, and the sort... that this setup would suffice if they don't want to use it as a drop-in replacement of their current router. Considering they'll probably never use devices that require the dhcp for detection.
I guess it comes down to whatever works and is easier for the user. For me, tt was easier to disable dhcp and use lmce box as a client node, instead of a gateway. My main reason for doing this is that i'm stubborn and don't like being told something isn't possible. No just kidding, I did it because I spent alot of time and effort setting up my linux firewall for intrustion detection and alertting (i do network security irl), I didn't feel like trying to set all that up again under Ubuntu, because i'd have to learn a new flavor on top of the footwork (fingerwork, whichever you prefer) needed to set it up to begin with. So it really was easier for me the way I did it.
Yes and I read your post about the arp method, and I was wondering why it was never implemented, I like it alot and believe it to be a GREAT choice for people in this situation.
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If running lmce with only one nic and no dhcp is so easy then why are so many people having trouble with it? Even more important why aren't you answering their questions and fixing their systems?
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Well first of all, everyone that has had problems with it in the past, those posts were made in 2007
I haven't seen many recent posts regarding this problem, and the two posts that were made regarding this, I have responded to. The first one, I actually fixed his problem. This post, I attempted to help, but then all these "think we are right" dev's and contributors started telling me i'm wrong, when I have 5 systems working exactly as I have said, and as you guys say won't work. I think you guys are EXTREMELY confused with yourselves.
After being confirmed correct by one of the more respected contributors, you guys are still telling me i'm wrong. Wow, you guys are never going to get anywhere. I guess, since i'm fed up with this community, now is a good time to say this.
I witness you guys working on some stupid ass projects. You guys trying to broadcast games across all MD's, getting your obscure bluetooth phones to work as orbiters, etc... maybe you guys should be concentrating on some of the more common problems people are having. Like this one for example. Or mythtv freezing, oh wait I already took care of that.
Back to the actual subject, since this is probably one of my last posts. You guys are obviously very closed minded. After a detail analysis on how automatic detection actually works, you still post condescending comments. Are you guys blind or just self-absorbed? How much more proof do I have to provide?
In retrospect:
Automatic PNP of network shares work perfectly with or without DHCP enabled. Network shares will detect on both the external nic and the internal nic. External nic pnp may require the internal nic to be in the same subnet. I haven't tested this since I automaticlly put my internal virtual nic in the same subnet by default.
In addition to the pnp for shares working perfectly, it didn't require ANY extra configuration for this work. I even have pnp working over a vpn link with no extra configuration.
Yes I understand cisco ip phones, or whatever devices you guys are wasting your time with, that are ip based, and do not advertise netbios names but recieve ip address from dhcp, yes in that case, dhcp would be required for PNP operation. But now think logically, the majority of people that will use devices of this nature, are more than likely advanced users and would have no difficulty configuring their devices manually. So with that said, I still stand my ground, for those of you that wish to keep your existing gateway/dhcp setup and wish to disabled the dhcp on the lmce box. Yes this is very possible and have a very small affect on the operation of lmce. I don't know where these other guys are getting their information, but they are obviously very confused and probably need to take another logical analysis of the detection scripts as I have several times before making any of these posts, to make sure I am not just crazy. I even cited examples, man you guys are striking me as very dumb. Well you know what they say, technical people usually lack all common sense (as observed here) and vice versa. The trick is to maintain a balance.
To answer you question AGAIN Z, I haven't helped because if you do your own research (as I did and cited examples) you'll see everyone single one of those were made in 2007, or the user had already been lulled into a false sense of proper configuration by you guys and is happy and stable already, and I just started participating in the community last month. So why am I going to bring back old posts like that for users who most likely don't even use lmce anymore? Why do you ask stupid ass questions Z? I really did respect all of you guys until I started watching you in IRC chat and how hostile and closed minded you guys are on the forums. There are a few of you I do still respect, collinjones, hari, daniel, and some others i can't remember at the moment, you guys have shown nothing but open-minded honest analysis and resolution of just about everyones problem you know something about. I will just refrain from participating in this community and just become like the other 90% of lmce users and just search for information on the forums to help us analyze our problems and screw everyone else. I mean, thats basically what you guys do, so... no more posting from me. This place is too hostile and too full of douche pickles. And yes, you can be a programmer, network engineer, etc... and still be a fool.
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well orionsune.....when youre right, youre right.
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I would like to point something out, here.
We're not "wasting time" as you so eloquently put it...
We are catching up.
Huh?
Let me explain,
You see, Pluto has let us use this major chunk of code, most of which, simply isn't documented. So given this massive chunk of code that does so many things..how do you figure out how it works?....by building stuff for it.... which is precisely what we all are doing....
We each picked an area that we felt was fun, so we could dive our energies and concentration into what we were doing. I am building a media type...which just happens to play games...which happens to be one of the most complex undertakings of system extension in this code base. Why? Because it touches EVERYTHING, from orbiter UI (40% of the code), to the media_plugin, which comprises as much as 10% of the code. You have to make parts of the system which interact with the router, and dce devices that can run to control the media player in question. You have to touch so many parts of the system to get this to work, and we have uncovered so much in the last 3 months from our work, it's nothing short of staggering..but we had to learn it...
Hari, is writing a Mobile Orbiter, to run on java phones, which...let's see...by my last count, comprise the vast majority of compatible phones that will be released in the future, as well as what is currently here in the present... The mobile orbiter requires understanding of DCE, as well as underlying structures of other libraries, is this time wasted?
Daniel, is working on getting this system buildable for other people so that other people can join the effort to build pieces for this system... He's one of the mythtv developers as well, who has also committed patches to fix various problems in mythtv, also using suggestions from users like yourself to help get the mythtv portions working properly....is this time wasted?
but i guess, you know this already, huh?
-Thom
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teege77, man that isn't even the point... I don't care if i'm right or wrong. I was actually expecting someone to bust out with a totally sound explination of how I was wrong... seriously, i was waiting to get shot down, which still isn't a big deal to me, i'd rather be shot down and know the proper solution than patronized and remain ignorant. But when someone tried to shoot me down they did not even offer an explination, just that "it won't work"... and I couldn't accept that as an answer since I was currently staring at a box where it DID work. So I started researching on why my box worked fine, and these people claim it shouldn't be. Come to find out, both of us were wrong and right... Yes automatic pnp still works for network shares, but automatic pnp of other ip based devices not storage related will not happen. OK, cool, so now I know and knew where to look, but then people continued to tell me it won't work and it's not a good idea etc...
I simply tried to point out the logical point of normal users will probably NEVER use those "other" ip based devices, and most likely only want the ability to play their downloaded movies on their tv from any computer/storage device in the house... and be able to weatch/record tv. Maybe an ip camera here or there, or even one of those cisco phones... but again, if a user is gong to go that far, then most likely they are advanced users already and can handle the manual config. Otherwise it's nothing to turn the dhcp server on for a second to configure the device then turn it back off and turn the main one back on. I mean... logic here people...
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i just meant the "douche pickle" part. if you look around its funny that some people will post that you shouldnt do anything against the grain....and two posts later say how much they admire people who go against it. as you well know, they also have a tendency to just say "it has to be done this way" and then give you a good "do it or get lost statement". tschak has some good points though. they were just handed this and have had to figure it out themselves. they do work really hard on doing all this and each part is just more pieces to the puzzle. its just sad you see a post from someone everyday either degrading someone or someone asking why they are being degraded when all they did was ask a question. im actually hoping you dont quit posting just because of this stuff youve been talking about. theres a few people on here that argue all the time but they seem to figure out a lot and end up being helpful to everyone. hopefully youll stick around and help some more.
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Ok TSCHAK, I understand completely now. And that is the kind of unbiased non-hostile explination I expected the first time, instead of this thread turning into what it has become.
Off topic about Daniel trying to get the source functional for others to help out. I have been trying to recompile a plugin forever, you've probably heard me talking about it in IRC, i'm going to start a new thread regarding it int he dev section later. I didn't know that was his current focus.
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I simply tried to point out the logical point of normal users will probably NEVER use those "other" ip based devices, and most likely only want the ability to play their downloaded movies on their tv from any computer/storage device in the house... and be able to weatch/record tv. Maybe an ip camera here or there, or even one of those cisco phones... but again, if a user is gong to go that far, then most likely they are advanced users already and can handle the manual config. Otherwise it's nothing to turn the dhcp server on for a second to configure the device then turn it back off and turn the main one back on. I mean... logic here people...
plain wrong.. the ha system is all about networked devices. My dad can connect an IP cam to the network.. but there is no way he could even configure a single line in a device web configuration interface or such..
The DHCP plug and play was one of the first pnp subsystems of pluto (even the PNP table is named DHCP..).
Just because you don't use sth like that don't decide for others whats "wasted time"..
It's a hobby of you to run a DHCP server at home.. most users don't even get the network basics behind a single nic configuration. If sb has an existing router with dhcp, fine, plug in another nic (some bucks today). That really eases network configuration.
Until you come up with a fully comparable solution that works with all existing devices and out of the box I see no point in discussing this further or recommending this to newbie users. But even then somebody will come around and cry: it does not create objects in my active directory... and i need that for my l33t h0m3 n34w0RX
best regards,
Hari
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lol, but hari I thought everyone was entitled to their opinion.
you are claiming that most newbie users ARE going to use complicated devices like that... I doubt that very seriously.
and by the time they solve all their initial issues and start considering using other devices, they'd likely have to expertise to configure them manually anyways.
as for ip cameras, what ip camera did you use, no seriously? Because during this discussion, I plugged my ip camera into my box and re-enabled dhcp, and it was not detected. I didn't spend too much time with that, it could have been something I screwed up in the process, so I went my buddies house that has a vanilla install from 2 days ago, and is using dhcp... still no pnp on the ip camera. Unfortunately this is the only ip based device I have of this nature. I really need to get this working so I have a baseline for what works for developing an alternative pnp system. I don't want to have to buy even more stuff...
I had already started on a system and believe I have a fully working system using an EXTREMELY basic pinging for loop. It creates a delay in detection, but I believe it will work, as soon as I get ahold of an ip device that is detected correctly by default so I have a baseline to test with, then I will share it with you guys.
For recommending to newbies? I will continue recommending this setup to newbies with the hardcore passion of your hostility. Why? Because lmce boxes are inherently insecure, are bullish towards existing networks, and as I said, most newbies will never bother with other devices of the nature you claim. I see this product mainly for home automation enthusiasts, and if you are one of those, you most likely an advanced user. This mis-conceived notion of your about your dad not being able to set anything up, I bet he didn't find the product on his own either, you most likely introduced it to him, so I don't believe that counts. Under normal circumstances he probably never would have found the product, downloaded it, installed it, and then know how to seek help using the forums. This is just an assumption based on your comment about is inadequacies as a computer nerd.
Most people that have enough sense to find this forum and seek help are more than capable of using my recommended setup.
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lol, but hari I thought everyone was entitled to their opinion.
of course ;)
and I still disagree, you are claiming that most users ARE going to use complicated devices like that... I doubt that very seriously.
we should do a poll and ask installers like Totallymaxed..
Today even cable tuners and AV Receivers have ethernet.. and no, they don't utilize rendevouz or sth like that..
as for ip cameras, what ip camera did he use? Because during this discussion, I plugged my ip camera into my box and re-enabled dhcp, and it was not detected. I didn't spend too much time with that, it could have been something I screwed up in the process, so I went my buddies house that has a vanilla install from 2 days ago, and is using dhcp... still no pnp on the ip camera. Unfortunately this is the only ip based device I have of this nature.
what type of cam is that? maybe the mac range is new and not yet in the database.
I had already started on a system and believe I have a fully working system using an EXTREMELY basic pinging for loop. It creates a delay in detection, but I believe it will work, as soon as I get ahold of an ip device that is detected correctly by default so I have a baseline to test with, then I will share it with you guys.
nice..
For recommending to newbies? I will continue recommending this setup to newbies with the hardcore passion of your hostility. Why? Because lmce boxes are inherently insecure, are bullish towards existing networks, and as I said, most newbies will never bother with other devices of the nature you claim. I see this product mainly for home automation enthusiasts, and if you are one of those, you most likely an advanced user.
the whole point about lmce is home automation ;)
whats the problem with letting LMCE have its own HA network behind your existing infrastructure? The price of the second nic? I think you like to swim against the mainstream ;)
Most people that have enough sense to find this forum and seek help are more than capable of using my recommended setup.
I hope you are right but experience tells me otherwise ;)
We should do that device poll (USB, RS232, Firewire, Ethernet)..
best regards,
hari
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I like the poll...
Camera Type;
It's an AXIS 2100, I actually completely re-wrote the IP Cameras guide on the wiki to reflect how to setup IP cams under motion. There was no clear guide on how to do that, and the IP guide that was there, was an ancient method.
nice..
I'll let you know my progress since you once played with the idea.
the whole point about lmce is home automation Wink
whats the problem with letting LMCE have its own HA network behind your existing infrastructure? The price of the second nic? I think you like to swim against the mainstream Wink
Ok, you are probably right, I do like swimming upstream alot of time. But as far as why I have a problem with letting lmce be my router are probably more personal to me. And your right, i'm assuming this for other users as well, but remember hari, i'm not pushing this on users who are already setup, i'm only suggesting this to the users with this specific issue. It started off as only a suggestion, then turned into a debate, now it's just a long ass thread that needs to go away.
The main problems (in my case) I see with allow lmce to be your gateway are this.
I already have a stable network setup with a stable and secure gateway. I didn't want to have to reconfigure everything on the lmce box to perform the same tasks as my already existing gateway. There is just far too much to do, not to mention some compilation and the flavor differences (Fedora vs Ubuntu).
As I have been building this box, i've run into so many unstable issues, I didn't want to risk using it as my gateway, be at work one day, need to reference some material I have on my PC's at home, and not be able to remote in and retrieve the information because my lmce box locked up, or other malfunction.
The default setup is not very secure, and in newbie users defense, some of these people I bet still haven't changed their default passwords, and if they have their firewalls disabled, or those ports open for access, anyone can just ssh into their box and really screw stuff up. Also, if by chance they have phpmyadmin on there or something of that nature, and port 80 is open to the outside or firewall disabled, i'll just be helping myself to their database also. Actually, if one can ssh in i'll just put phpmyadmin on it oneself, well I am not going to go on about lmce's inherit vulnerabilities, I made my point.
But yeah, your right, as I said in another post I believe, I mentioned that lmce is about home automation and attracts mostly home automation enthusiasts, and if your a HA enthusiasts, then you problably are a slightly more advanced user than just plain newbies. So it defeats the whole dhcp vs newbie argument thing because of that little assumption.
I hope you are right but experience tells me otherwise
experience tells me the same thing, but I have this annoying habit of having faith in humanity. I believe all my faith does is reliably let me down.
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I witness you guys working on some stupid ass projects. You guys trying to broadcast games across all MD's, getting your obscure bluetooth phones to work as orbiters, etc... maybe you guys should be concentrating on some of the more common problems people are having. Like this one for example. Or mythtv freezing, oh wait I already took care of that.
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Nice flame bait, excuse me if I don't read the rest of your drivel.
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I witness you guys working on some stupid ass projects. You guys trying to broadcast games across all MD's, getting your obscure bluetooth phones to work as orbiters, etc... maybe you guys should be concentrating on some of the more common problems people are having. Like this one for example. Or mythtv freezing, oh wait I already took care of that.
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Nice flame bait, excuse me if I don't read the rest of your drivel.
hey, let's ignore the fact that danielk fixed race conditions regarding the remote control functionality
and did many other improvements in mythtv to increase stability with lmce. Hail orionsune, the big "-v" remover..
@orionsune: you don't even care to try the system at is was designed but mock about our priorities...
And it seems like you don't know how open source development works. People code because of personal fun or need. So if you want something fixed you should ask nicely if you can't do it yourself. Don't bash about other peoples projects even if there is no use for you. But hey, you can't even think about ethernet devices for LMCE, so how could you understand the orbiter concept..
Go install some dhcp servers..
Hari