I'm completely new to Linux MCE, but I've searched and read through discussions on this topic; I think I may have confused myself with information overload. It sounds like Insteon is the best way to go, although much more expensive. Since it is backwards compatible with X10, I might start with X10 and plan to upgrade in pieces later. What I don't quite understand is this whole "bi-directional" business. Insteon was designed to be bi-directional, which I can understand could be very helpful, given that X10 is sometimes unstable, according to some. So with Insteon (using the Powerlinc modem a/k/a PLM), every time a light is turned on, the Core will ultimately receive a notification that the light is now on (whether the light was turned on by the Core or by someone flipping the switch in the room with the light). Will this be true even if the light switch is an X10 unit and not an Insteon switch?
In any case, X10 apparently does not do this, so with X10, when the Core turns on a light, it has no way of verifying that the light actually turned on. Also, when someone goes into a room and turns a light on, the Core has no way of knowing this.
But what about Devices that are designed to send information to the Core, rather than the other way around? For example, a motion sensor is designed to tell the Core that motion has been detected - the Core must be "listening" to that sensor (compared to the light which must be "listening" to the Core). So if I had an X10 adapter CM11A interfacing my Home Automation devices to the Core, would the Core be able to even sense motion devices at all?
In other words, my question is whether using a a CM11A would allow me to interface with cheap X10 motion sensors, thermostat adapters, etc. and not just light controls. If it will allow this I'm considering getting this cheaper adapter to start with and later upgrade to the Insteon PLM. Any help, comments, or thoughts would be appreciated!
Your on the right track.
With motion sensors, the device code i.e. A1 is transmitted down the powerline whereas this doesnt occur with regular switches. The way the code works (and im no expert) is that the x10 equipment (cm11) listens for the motion sensor commands that are transmitted. So that in a very simplistic way is why x10 motion sensors would work. i have not tried anything else outside of motion detectors though.
hope that helps.
As far as the comparison goes, you get what you pay for. Insteon is fast, stable and fully bidirectional
However, X10 is still a very feasible home automation solution (I exclusively use X10 in my home). It can be just as stable as the others if it is set up right (phase coupling). It is a little slower to react (about a half second delay).
X10 protocol and the CM11A are both bidirectional. The problem is that most modules don't fully utilize the X10 protocol. In fact, there have been only a few devices that do. However, it doesn't mean that LMCE will be totally dumb about the state of X10 devices. LMCE will track the states if turned on/off by LMCE, or by any wireless X10 remote - or any X10 powerline signal for that matter. The only part that LMCE remains dumb to is only when a switch is used locally (flipped with your finger). Levetron did make some fully bidirectional wall switches in the past, but they are hard to find now.
X10 support isn't 100% at the moment though.. X10 climate devices aren't supported yet by the driver (though this is a project I will be working on). There are also some X10 protocol items not yet implemented (Direct dims, All Lights/Units off, etc). This should all be ironed out shortly though. For now, it works great with Lights (switches, plugin modules, socket rockets, even outlets), sensors and relays (Powerflash, Universal Module) and motion detectors though.
Lastly, remember the the power of LMCE is that you can mix and match. Start out with X10 - use it for some lights and chap motion sensors, etc. You can add Insteon at any time and even use ZWave at the same time.
Perfect - thanks for the detailed replies. I'll probably start with the CM11A and upgrade from there.
One more question regarding phase couplers. The Insteon Phase coupler claims to couple X10 signals as well as Insteon signals. i wonder if the X10 phase couplers will couple Insteon signals as well? As expected, they are cheaper. In fact one guy on eBay appears to simply be selling the correct capacitor (just the capacitor) for like $1.50. I assume the X10 couplers would couple Insteon signals if they used the same frequency and thus the capacitor would let through both since they were on the same frequency. Does anyone know? If not, I'll probably just go with the slightly more expensive Insteon couple to be sure. Thanks again.
Sorry for maybe "hijacking" the thread but I was under the impression that Plcbus was the way to go if you wanted bi-directional communication under LMCE.
Now I get confused on what to buy (since there will be Alot of modules in the house)
-johan
Currently the bi-directional list is:
* Z-Wave (thanks to Hari's KICK ASS DRIVER)
* Insteon (thanks to ddamron's ALSO KISS ASS DRIVER)
* PLCBUS (again, thanks to ddamron!)
X-10 could feasibly be on this list, but am unsure of the reliability of polling the interface. jondecker76?
-Thom
Who are you guys buying your Zwave parts from online? Cheaper the better!
Thanks,
Krys
X10 wouldn't be a good candidate to be listed as "Fully" bidirectional. The reason being that there are only a few X10 modules that are fully bidirectional (and are no longer made), and because of this the X10 status request function has not even been implemented in the CM11A driver.
I guess this puts it in the "Semi-bidirectional" category, at least for now
Quote from: krys on November 12, 2008, 04:47:14 PM
Who are you guys buying your Zwave parts from online? Cheaper the better!
Thanks,
Krys
http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Where_to_Buy
Quote from: johanr on November 12, 2008, 03:15:52 PM
Sorry for maybe "hijacking" the thread but I was under the impression that Plcbus was the way to go if you wanted bi-directional communication under LMCE.
Now I get confused on what to buy (since there will be Alot of modules in the house)
-johan
PLCBUS is sloooow...
I've never used PLCBus.. Is it slower than X10? (about a half second delay)
dunno, never used X10. I got rid of all PLCBUS pieces after seeing the speed of Z-Wave (40k). Only had three schuko plugs, but sometimes it took some seconds to switch them all.
best regards,
Hari
oh, this post came right on time.
Thanks Hari, Then I will start looking for the insteon instead. Guess it's easier to get hold of hw locally here Scandinavia.
-johan
Scandinavia? Insteon is only for US frequencies/power levels.
I'd strongly recommend Z-Wave for Europe.
best regards,
Hari
yeah, I noticed that.. :'(
I mixed it up with another product known be be sold here..
Hmm.. Zwave, I am trying to avoid wireless products as much as possible so I guess the Plcbus is still valid for me then.
Thanks!
I can understand your aversion against wireless :-)
The 868mhz ISM band is pretty reliable because of the 1% duty cycle limitation in Europe. What I can tell from my tests Z-Wave is much more reliable than powerline based communications like PLCBUS. If you want wires, go KNX/EIB.
best regards,
Hari
Now I really hijacked the tread, sorry for the OT theminor.
KNX/EIB products needs a separate cable to each switch or device to be controlled and since Sadly I noticed this Kick ass project after the building plans where already made and walls had been "shut".
This means pulling new cables all over which can=will be a pain. My plan is more or less Full controll via LMCE :)
-johan
Quote from: johanr on November 13, 2008, 01:09:57 PM
Now I really hijacked the tread, sorry for the OT theminor.
KNX/EIB products needs a separate cable to each switch or device to be controlled and since Sadly I noticed this Kick ass project after the building plans where already made and walls had been "shut".
This means pulling new cables all over which can=will be a pain. My plan is more or less Full controll via LMCE :)
-johan
AFAIK, EIB/Knx has also possibility to run over existing cables. It will cost you more money, but I think modules are there (I think there is one manufacturer that is specialized in those modules over 220V wires)...
There seems that also Knx-RF is emerging.
HTH,
regards,
bulek.