Well guys, I hate to admit it but the wife has been somewhat unhappy with LMCE from the start. She loves the idea of a central media center and various frontend MDs, as well as the potential for all the home automation stuff, integrated security and phone system, etc. Unfortunately she hates the interface. Ugly, non-intuitive, sometimes glitchy. She wants to be able pick up a remote and have everything make sense, not need to learn where stuff is or how to do things.
Since I had a spare 500G SATA drive in my closet, I went ahead and installed Mythbuntu for her to try. The wife is happy with it, so it looks like I'll be stepping away from linuxmce for a while. To be completely honest, I like it much better myself except for the lack of HA features.
I'll be keeping an eye on LinuxMCE. After the orbiter re-write I hope to come back - there is so much potential functionality I want to use. Unfortunately user friendliness is just not there. LinuxMCE is also quite glitchy, but I've been using 810 BETA, it's expected.
Don't take this as a typical LinuxMCE sucks, I'm using something else type post. If anything, think of it as a reminder of what is important to end users - the user experience. I know some of the devs here get uptight and defensive when any criticism is given, but lets try to get past that. I want LinuxMCE to succeed. I think it has the potential to be great. I know it's early in it's life and is trying to shake off the shackles of the commercial product that spawned it. As an end user that has been using and following this project for more than 2 years let me throw out a few general suggestions:
*rip out, rewrite, or otherwise get away from any proprietary code. LMCE needs FOSS programmers, some FOSS programmers may shy away from a project built from and still limited by non-free licensing, even if it's just some areas.
*stop chasing away potential users and developers. Rude belittling posts do nothing but hurt the project.
*listen to the users. If a question or complaint comes up often, there is a reason.
*more linux standard stuff, less wizardy stuff. Think of how many people run into the "black screen, press 1, 2, 3, etc." on hardware where a standard linux install works fine.
*If at all possible, get this to run on other distros.
*Do not force PXE booted MDs. Net booting is nice, it's slick, but sometimes being able to boot a MD from a local HD is a better option.
*Put an end to the constand "need to reload router" and "need to regenerate orbiter" stuff.
Of course these are all suggestions, nobody can demand or even expect the devs to work on anything they don't want to (unless they are being directly paid for specific items). I'll still be lurking from time to time, I may even setup a test environment and continue to play around.
You should have gotten her a remote with idiot buttons, as navigating the "Media" menu has proven too difficult for her.
"When you ground up re-architect the project and make it look like an Iphone I might use it again for free sometime."
Gosh. I bet they are really looking forward to that.
Yes, I have modified the post...
A good number of your points are valid, however, there is only so much the developers can do with limited time and resources. We need help,
You haven't been following any development discussions, so how could you possibly know how things are going?
I am a bit miffed at your tone of, "make it nice and perfect and MAYBE i'll come back." but I'm sure that was unintentional.
-Thom
Typical responses. My second point in fact - rude belittling posts hidden behind a a thin veil of sarcasm.
Hand a guest in your home who has never seen LMCE a remote and tell them to set a program to record any time it comes on.
You don't have to like my suggestions, or even agree with them. I'm just trying to be honest and unbiased. If anything, I'm biased in favor of LMCE.
Thom - as much as you have contributed to this project and as much good as you have done, LinuxMCE would be better off without you. Or at least better if you were banned from the user forum. Stick to coding and leave the PR to others. Newsflash - not everyone's life revolves around LMCE. You can claim I have a complete lack of contribution, disregard 2+ years of answering what I could in the forums and what little of my posts made it to the wiki. I understand your ego is fragile and anyone that doesn't submit code to the project is inferior to you, has no valid opinion, and are only to be tolerated but not allowed to speak freely. You did notice this was posted in the users forum right?
BTW, I didn't say I was leaving. I said I was going to hang around, watch how things progress, maybe even setup a test box for LMCE. In fact, I specifically said I hope to replace Myth with LMCE in the future. Think of my going back to MythTV as a temporary thing while the usability issues are worked out.
If the goal of the project is still to make a simple to setup, simple to use, all-in-one appliance type device you HAVE to listen to the users. Who is the target audience for the future? If it's techies or people who are willing to learn lots of detailed stuff like most everyone here in order to get the functionality of LMCE, then things are fine the way they are. I am fine with the learning curve. If the target audience is non-technical people or those who just want things to be easy to use without a steep learning curve then the opinions of people like my wife should be important.
Or just continue the way things are, keep chasing people away while begging people to help. Keep all the options limited with a high learning curve to weed out anyone that may want to just download it for and use a hassle free system. Ignore all the reasons why other options such as boxee, xbmc, mythtv, etc. are more successful. And most important of all, ignore the suggestions by those of us who have been using LinuxMCE for a while.
Quote from: tschak909 on June 04, 2010, 05:12:17 AM
Yes, I have modified the post...
A good number of your points are valid, however, there is only so much the developers can do with limited time and resources. We need help,
You haven't been following any development discussions, so how could you possibly know how things are going?
I am a bit miffed at your tone of, "make it nice and perfect and MAYBE i'll come back." but I'm sure that was unintentional.
-Thom
Since you modified the post after I started my last reply, then was away from my computer for a bit, let me reply to this directly.
I'm still going to leave my original reply as is because your "don't let the door hit you on the way out" is far too common and I think my reply is valid. Ok, I may have been a bit unfairly harsh, but I'm leaving my knee-jerk reaction to your knee-jerk reaction.
I'm not a coder. Probably never will be. I'm a Unix admin. As part of my unix work I sometimes do ksh scripting all day long. I've also done a bit of python programming. The LAST thing I want to do after work is code especially if it means learning/re-learning a language. I don't follow the dev forums, although I do pick up the occasional bit here and there, such as the plan to re-write the orbiter.
My tone may have come across as "make it perfect and maybe I'll come back" but it certainly wasn't meant that way. To put it simple: My wife does not like the LinuxMCE interface so I finally gave in and switched to MythTV, now she is happy. I plan to come back to LMCE as soon as it's user friendly enough that she is ok with it. I have confidence that this will be the case once the orbiter has been re-written. I'm technical, she is not. Things that I, and most everyone here, are fine with she sees as ugly, unintuitive, or a hassle. I think it would do everyone some good to sit down with a non-technical person with no LMCE exposure and get their honest opinion.
My suggestions, and they are only suggestions, are based on what I have seen here and with other projects like MythTV. Additional coders will come with a larger user base. A larger user base will come with easier, more flexible install and a more user friendly UI.
You honestly think i don't see the faults?
Really?
Like I said, if you were part of the development discussions, you'd know this is the furthest thing from the truth.
I work constantly, to try and come up with a development plan to virtually address most of your criticisms (the diskless workstation concept is staying in place as is however. not going to change.)
Ask anyone here who has worked beside me.
-Thom
I can see some of skeptic points are valid but telling one of the main coders that the project is better off without him is not going to help the project grow. This project is by far the best all-in-one package I have ever come across.
The only complaint I would have is that it is very very hard to get started with helping you guys in some of the coding as people coming from a non linux background find it hard to setup the project from source...(i still have not managed to follow the instructions) so maybe a bit more help is needed in that area, then when people get setup they will gladly be able to contribute!!
P.S. I love the PXE booting option so I for one would hate to see that go!!
This is a tricky one. I am a hardcore geek and live by myself, but have now phased LMCE out of everything except lighting control. In that area I find it hard to replace linuxmce as the next best thing is Misterhouse which is quite primitive.
I think the problem is that LMCE tries to bite off too much and there is really too much work to do on the project for the limited number of devs. It will perhaps never catch up with the Ubuntu release cycle and who knows if it will make it onto other distros. It will be hard to get myth developers to come over to LMCE. Wouldn't it be better if LMCE was a set of plugins for mythtv? We use the mythtv interface, keep everything simple, and get all those mythtv devs excited in our project. Keep the DCErouter, but user mythtv as the front end - always running. Or, different approach - use XBMC and make mythtv a set of plugins on that. It was good enough for Boxee....
Quote from: skeptic on June 04, 2010, 06:50:50 AM
My tone may have come across as "make it perfect and maybe I'll come back" but it certainly wasn't meant that way. To put it simple: My wife does not like the LinuxMCE interface so I finally gave in and switched to MythTV, now she is happy. I plan to come back to LinuxMCE as soon as it's user friendly enough that she is ok with it. I have confidence that this will be the case once the orbiter has been re-written. I'm technical, she is not. Things that I, and most everyone here, are fine with she sees as ugly, unintuitive, or a hassle. I think it would do everyone some good to sit down with a non-technical person with no LinuxMCE exposure and get their honest opinion.
Is it just the interface for the TV part that's causing the friction? I have to say, I recently switched to the N800 as my main remote, and that uses all the myth menus for recording, browsing recording, guide, etc, and I have to say I much prefer it. I would have thought that any touchscreen mobile orbiter would help the WAF.
Regarding your point "Hand a guest in your home who has never seen LinuxMCE a remote and tell them to set a program to record any time it comes on." is not really fair I don't think. Take any standard PVR machine that is on the market right now, and I know people that would still have trouble. I don't think that LMCE (with a touchscreen orbiter) is really any more difficult.
Quote from: skeptic on June 03, 2010, 10:42:09 PM*stop chasing away potential users and developers. Rude belittling posts do nothing but hurt the project.
I have to totally agree with this comment. However I think it is unfair to single Thom out in the way you did later on, he isn't the only (or worst) culpret!! It's supposed to be a
community and, AFAIK, Linux is about
choice, so various views are all valid as are different configurations and any resulting, open discussions. Having said that, if you deliberately don't follow advice, don't expect the main guys to bail you out!
Quote from: chrisbirkinshaw on June 04, 2010, 10:46:38 AMIt will perhaps never catch up with the Ubuntu release cycle and who knows if it will make it onto other distros.
Perhaps I mis-remember, but I'm sure I read that part of the reason 810 is such a big deal (and a big job) is that the close tie with Kubuntu version is being un-picked. My understanding is that it will go from a system embedded in the OS, to one installed on top. I'm sure I read that once this process is complete, moving to newer Kubuntu releases will be a much faster, and less painful, process. Or have I mis-remembered?
Quote from: skeptic on June 03, 2010, 10:42:09 PM
Well guys, I hate to admit it but the wife has been somewhat unhappy with LinuxMCE from the start. She loves the idea of a central media center and various frontend MDs, as well as the potential for all the home automation stuff, integrated security and phone system, etc. Unfortunately she hates the interface. Ugly, non-intuitive, sometimes glitchy. She wants to be able pick up a remote and have everything make sense, not need to learn where stuff is or how to do things.
Since I had a spare 500G SATA drive in my closet, I went ahead and installed Mythbuntu for her to try. The wife is happy with it, so it looks like I'll be stepping away from linuxmce for a while. To be completely honest, I like it much better myself except for the lack of HA features.
I'll be keeping an eye on LinuxMCE. After the orbiter re-write I hope to come back - there is so much potential functionality I want to use. Unfortunately user friendliness is just not there. LinuxMCE is also quite glitchy, but I've been using 810 BETA, it's expected.
Don't take this as a typical LinuxMCE sucks, I'm using something else type post. If anything, think of it as a reminder of what is important to end users - the user experience. I know some of the devs here get uptight and defensive when any criticism is given, but lets try to get past that. I want LinuxMCE to succeed. I think it has the potential to be great. I know it's early in it's life and is trying to shake off the shackles of the commercial product that spawned it. As an end user that has been using and following this project for more than 2 years let me throw out a few general suggestions:
*rip out, rewrite, or otherwise get away from any proprietary code. LinuxMCE needs FOSS programmers, some FOSS programmers may shy away from a project built from and still limited by non-free licensing, even if it's just some areas.
*stop chasing away potential users and developers. Rude belittling posts do nothing but hurt the project.
*listen to the users. If a question or complaint comes up often, there is a reason.
*more linux standard stuff, less wizardy stuff. Think of how many people run into the "black screen, press 1, 2, 3, etc." on hardware where a standard linux install works fine.
*If at all possible, get this to run on other distros.
*Do not force PXE booted MDs. Net booting is nice, it's slick, but sometimes being able to boot a MD from a local HD is a better option.
*Put an end to the constand "need to reload router" and "need to regenerate orbiter" stuff.
Of course these are all suggestions, nobody can demand or even expect the devs to work on anything they don't want to (unless they are being directly paid for specific items). I'll still be lurking from time to time, I may even setup a test environment and continue to play around.
Firstly Thom commits an enormous amount of his personal time and energy at all levels of this project - and yes he can often be 'heard' here voicing a somewhat acerbic opinion or just venting his frustration here in the forum... but after all is said and done no one here has put more into this project than he has - including me or indeed you. So who are we to criticise him?
Hmm... what i fail to understand is that you want to make such a big deal about 'leaving'...since you are by your own admission not contributing at a code/technical level then I would have thought it more appropriate to just stop using LinuxMCE and to focus your energy on raising the WAF in your home with Myth or whatever else you find works for you.
All the best
Andrew
Quote from: skeptic on June 04, 2010, 06:29:35 AM
Typical responses. My second point in fact - rude belittling posts hidden behind a a thin veil of sarcasm.
Hand a guest in your home who has never seen LinuxMCE a remote and tell them to set a program to record any time it comes on.
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s153/69GTFastback/bs/mceremote.gif)
Choose an upcoming show (with the arrow keys). Press "ok" and record whatever scheme you want (again using those pesky arrow keys).
That is also a function of myth. Aren't you now on mythbuntu?
Splain to me how it is better. How is the scheduled recording different? How has it become easier for your wife? Because you have a big button on the tv which takes you to the same place?
I am not associated with lmce. I just found your "this isn't a lmce sucks thread but this is why lmce sucks" not only disingenuous, but a labor of the obvious or just painfully myopic. Literally my eye hurt after reading your suggestions. I have a headache in my eye now. If this wisdom is the culmination of your 3 years of experience... well... there you go.
I am sorry somewhere down the line Thom hurt your feelings. Perhaps you are a little to gentle to be on the internet just yet.
Quote from: skeptic on April 16, 2010, 01:05:03 AM
I agree, and disagree. I'm not saying LinuxMCE should go the way of MythTV, but the whole UI gently overlaid is certainly not true either. I really like the way the main menu doesn't block the other stuff when media is playing, but go into the video menu, or audio, etc. and it blocks everything (or blends with the background).
(http://wiki.linuxmce.org/images/0/0e/FileBrowserUI2M-small.jpg)
If you want coverart and enough movies per screen it kinda has to.
Start a movie that you were previously watching and the entire screen is covered while asking to continue or not. There are plenty of places where LinuxMCE blocks whatever on-screen media is playing, some make perfect sense while others do not. While I agree that trying to copy MythTV or any of the other eye-candy UIs is not the way LinuxMCE should go, I do think there are a few areas where using at least the bulk of the screen makes sense. Possibly scaling the media to a PIP type box.
Just to be clear, I like the way LinuxMCE works. I still only use it for media, no HA stuff yet, and I'm still using LinuxMCe with no plans to switch. I'm also happy to hear you are working on re-writing the orbiter.
My how a few weeks changes things...
Didn't mean to start an uproar. Let me see if I can respond to some of the main points/questions.
The stuff directed toward Thom was a reaction to his original reply. I don't want to dwell on it, but my comments refer to his posting and attitude toward others, NOT on his contributions as a dev. There seems to be somewhat of a confrontational tone between devs (and others) and anyone wanting to make a suggestion. I've seen people join the forum, say they are a coder or want to learn, then get chased off when they suggest ideas or new approaches. I wasn't singling out or implying anyone specific in my first post.
PXE boot - I think I may have been misunderstood, I would not want to see PXE booting go away. I do think the ability to install a MD on a local drive and boot from it could be handy in certain circumstances. Mainly for things like a wireless laptop that may move around. In fact, I'm PXE booting a MythTV frontend now. Very handy feature that I wouldn't want to see go away.
WAF - simply put, she doesn't like the interface and finds the Myth one more intuitive. I/we have never used a webpad mobile orbiter, she may have been happy had I bought one for her to use.
I wasn't trying to make a big deal about leaving. Quite the contrary. I was trying to throw out ideas to help LMCE appeal to a larger audience. I started with 0704, ran 0710 for most of the time, then switched to 0810 beta. I want LMCE to succeed, I want it to grow and become the standard by which all other media centers are judged. Yes, LMCE is far more than just a media center, but that's how it's going to be seen and compared to by others. Sometimes I think people here get tunnel vision and it helps to get another point of view.
l3mce - I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over how much easier one product is than another. I'm fine with LMCE, the wife thinks other options are easier to use and look nicer. End of discussion. Clearly you have issues with reading comprehension as well, but thank you for taking the time to search through my older posts and quote one that supports what I am saying in this thread.
Quote from: skeptic on June 04, 2010, 05:38:24 PMl3mce - I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over how much easier one product is than another. I'm fine with LinuxMCE, the wife thinks other options are easier to use and look nicer. End of discussion. Clearly you have issues with reading comprehension as well, but thank you for taking the time to search through my older posts and quote one that supports what I am saying in this thread.
It is the same product. Scheduling functions the same way because it is the same interface. There is no discussion to be had. If your wife cannot, after a single explanation, "work it"... I do not see how that would change.
Your quoted post, while still whining that it isn't good enough, is in contrast to what you are saying now, and supported by your decision to move to the "eye candy" option you did not think LMCE should go.
What did you expect this thread to accomplish? That everyone would drop the current product and re-engineer it to suit you so you will come back? Seriously? If you want a feature, make it. If you want to criticize it, you might want to contribute first to lend your opinion weight. My opinion has no weight... that is why I bother talking to you about this. It is not your place, nor mine, to complain about what "I think it should do" or state the obvious as if it is a revelation. There is nothing of merit in your contradictory posts, and this thread serves no purpose but to offend... my reading comprehension not withstanding.
Quote from: l3mce on June 04, 2010, 06:01:21 PM
Quote from: skeptic on June 04, 2010, 05:38:24 PMl3mce - I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over how much easier one product is than another. I'm fine with LinuxMCE, the wife thinks other options are easier to use and look nicer. End of discussion. Clearly you have issues with reading comprehension as well, but thank you for taking the time to search through my older posts and quote one that supports what I am saying in this thread.
It is the same product. Scheduling functions the same way because it is the same interface. There is no discussion to be had. If your wife cannot, after a single explanation, "work it"... I do not see how that would change.
It's not a question of her being able to, she can. LMCE adds an extra layer on top. LMCE -> MythTV (dumps you into live tv) -> back out to the MythTV menu (different look and feel from LMCE main menu). From there it's the same. That was just one random example, but clearly you are living in denial so you just be happy with yourself.
Quote
Your quoted post, while still whining that it isn't good enough, is in contrast to what you are saying now, and supported by your decision to move to the "eye candy" option you did not think LinuxMCE should go.
Reading comprehension owns you. Most everyone agrees LMCE would benefit form a face-lift. That doesn't mean eye-candy. I switched to MythTV because it's the option my wife likes better.
Quote
What did you expect this thread to accomplish? That everyone would drop the current product and re-engineer it to suit you so you will come back? Seriously? If you want a feature, make it. If you want to criticize it, you might want to contribute first to lend your opinion weight. My opinion has no weight... that is why I bother talking to you about this. It is not your place, nor mine, to complain about what "I think it should do" or state the obvious as if it is a revelation. There is nothing of merit in your contradictory posts, and this thread serves no purpose but to offend... my reading comprehension not withstanding.
Don't confuse suggestions with criticism. The amount of contribution one makes has no bearing on the validity of a suggestion. Sure, it carries more weight if a main dev suggests something, but that doesn't in and of itself make it more valid.
My posts do not contradict each other in any way. This thread was never intended to offend, but it did go off-track a bit, thanks largely to you. I don't expect anyone here to care what product I use or make major changes to keep me using LMCE. The only thing I hoped to accomplish was to get people thinking about ways to attract people to the project, expand the user and developer base. Few (none?) are new ideas, but no harm in mentioning them again.
Quote from: skeptic
It's not a question of her being able to, she can. LinuxMCE adds an extra layer on top. LinuxMCE -> MythTV (dumps you into live tv) -> back out to the MythTV menu (different look and feel from LinuxMCE main menu). From there it's the same. That was just one random example, but clearly you are living in denial so you just be happy with yourself.
Speaking of reading comprehension... my suggestion was that she use a $10 remote. I even made a picture for you.
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s153/69GTFastback/bs/mceremote.gif)
QuoteReading comprehension owns you. Most everyone agrees LinuxMCE would benefit form a face-lift. That doesn't mean eye-candy. I switched to MythTV because it's the option my wife likes better.
So... because I am slow... maybe you can help me along with this... I take face lift to imply an improvement of appearance. I take eye candy to imply visually appealing features. Can you reconcile these for me so that they produce a different logical conclusion? Use small words.
QuoteI'm fine with LinuxMCE, the wife thinks other options are easier to use and look nicer.
I again do not seem to grasp why pushing the button is harder than navigating a different OSD with the same number of clicks. I get your point... the overall media interface is easier to navigate. That is because media is all you can do with it... see this all seems obvious... and I don't really get a valid point from you other than a "prettier but dumb" interface would draw more attention... but the point of this project, unlike any other I am aware of, is that this media interacts with your entire house. An event triggers a response. The magnitude and flexibility of the system, which you seem to think "does too much", does precisely what it is desired to do. I would relate your disparaging position, which is insulting to contributors, to trading your car in for a GPS, because the interface is more intuitive than the one in your car was. I find that regardless of your intent, the end result of your post is only going to be demoralizing and seen as ungrateful in the eyes of the readers you are intending, evidently, to send a "wake up call" to. You don't seem to know what you are talking about... and attacking me for not understanding your "feelings".
QuoteDon't confuse suggestions with criticism. The amount of contribution one makes has no bearing on the validity of a suggestion. Sure, it carries more weight if a main dev suggests something, but that doesn't in and of itself make it more valid.
Again, it is weightless to the intended reader. They need help, you don't help, then "suggest" they:
*rip out, rewrite, or otherwise get away from any proprietary code. LinuxMCE needs FOSS programmers, some FOSS programmers may shy away from a project built from and still limited by non-free licensing, even if it's just some areas.
Drop pluto. Brilliant. I mean... I just don't even know how to address that. You seem to basically want mythbuntu with a couple of the "features" of lmce.
*stop chasing away potential users and developers. Rude belittling posts do nothing but hurt the project.
Not a criticism obviously... just a suggestion eh? I don't like the way Thom talks to me either... but until he says something that is INCORRECT in a condescending way... he is kind enough to waste his time explaining things to me. His frustrations are logical and blunt. I prefer people that way. It's honest... grow a thicker skin.
*listen to the users. If a question or complaint comes up often, there is a reason.
Implies they do not. My limited comprehension reading this board has led me to a very different conclusion. The board itself exists for that function.
I am not going to go line by line anymore. I see that you are naively unaware that the post is insulting. At this point I am fueling something negative here, bumping the post. I wish you luck... and more dimension.
let's close out this thread, hm?
-Thom
Quote from: l3mce on June 04, 2010, 07:46:03 PM
<useless drivel removed>
Again, it is weightless to the intended reader. They need help, you don't help, then "suggest" they:
*rip out, rewrite, or otherwise get away from any proprietary code. LinuxMCE needs FOSS programmers, some FOSS programmers may shy away from a project built from and still limited by non-free licensing, even if it's just some areas.
Drop pluto. Brilliant. I mean... I just don't even know how to address that. You seem to basically want mythbuntu with a couple of the "features" of lmce.
I would not go so far as to call it brilliant, but as a long term goal it's important. If I'm not mistaken, it's also in the plan.
Quote
*stop chasing away potential users and developers. Rude belittling posts do nothing but hurt the project.
Not a criticism obviously... just a suggestion eh? I don't like the way Thom talks to me either... but until he says something that is INCORRECT in a condescending way... he is kind enough to waste his time explaining things to me. His frustrations are logical and blunt. I prefer people that way. It's honest... grow a thicker skin.
Don't worry about me, my skin is plenty thick. I just hate to see other people driven away. This was not directed at Thom, BTW.
Quote
*listen to the users. If a question or complaint comes up often, there is a reason.
Implies they do not. My limited comprehension reading this board has led me to a very different conclusion. The board itself exists for that function.
Agreed, but the prevailing attitude, which you have perpetuated here in this thread, is the opinions of users don't matter. Only those that contribute an arbitrary "enough" should be allowed to comment.
Quote
I am not going to go line by line anymore. I see that you are naively unaware that the post is insulting. At this point I am fueling something negative here, bumping the post. I wish you luck... and more dimension.
Perhaps you should grow thicker skin. Suggesting improvements or pointing out deficiencies should not be taken as insults. Without your input this thread would have been far less negative.
why cant this thread just die!?!?!?!?!?!?
can I have some popcorn with this?
br Hari
Quote from: hari on June 04, 2010, 10:04:15 PM
can I have some popcorn with this?
br Hari
I worked at a movie theater once.
Quote from: hari on June 04, 2010, 10:04:15 PM
can I have some popcorn with this?
br Hari
Here you go...enjoy
(http://www.gordonsquare.org/images/capitol-gala/popcorn-1.jpg)
Quote from: skeptic
I would not go so far as to call it brilliant, but as a long term goal it's important. If I'm not mistaken, it's also in the plan.
If you honestly believe it to be the plan, then why bother to suggest it? This would be the sort of thing I refer to as disingenuous. Your OP simply says "Ground up re-architect the back end, or steal it, because the license sucks. Redesign the front end with a more attractive, but not necessarily pretty, UI that I find more intuitive. I love the system, but if you would just trash it and start over, I might find it worthy to use without contribution."
Kind of like me saying "If your wife was prettier, and a different race, I'd bang her."
Quote from: skepticAgreed, but the prevailing attitude, which you have perpetuated here in this thread, is the opinions of users don't matter. Only those that contribute an arbitrary "enough" should be allowed to comment.
Let's shoot for an arbitrary "anything". I agree, however, that my opinion is equally useless as an end user who has contributed nothing to date. I think the prevailing attitude here is more along the lines of "I work my ass off and all people do is complain. Why spend xx hours a day helping you, for you to switch and call my work 'ugly' and 'not intuitive'."
Quote from: skepticPerhaps you should grow thicker skin. Suggesting improvements or pointing out deficiencies should not be taken as insults. Without your input this thread would have been far less negative.
It doesn't offend me... I was just trying to explain why it was offensive. If you still do not understand, I doubt I am going to be able to make it clearer to you. Without my input, this thread would have been less negative to you.
With that I will give you the last word... at least I will try.
You are either clueless or a troll. Clearly unable to understand what I have written while trying to change the meaning around. No point in trying to explain what has already been explained, you'll never get it. Thank you for staying out of my thread, now that you've turned it into a flame war.
Mods - you may as well lock this thread, it's pointless now.
Quote from: skeptic on June 05, 2010, 01:35:23 AM
You are either clueless or a troll. Clearly unable to understand what I have written while trying to change the meaning around. No point in trying to explain what has already been explained, you'll never get it. Thank you for staying out of my thread, now that you've turned it into a flame war.
Mods - you may as well lock this thread, it's pointless now.
*calls fire dept in leiu of adding more gasoline*
Quote from: skeptic on June 05, 2010, 01:35:23 AM
You are either clueless or a troll. Clearly unable to understand what I have written while trying to change the meaning around. No point in trying to explain what has already been explained, you'll never get it. Thank you for staying out of my thread, now that you've turned it into a flame war.
Mods - you may as well lock this thread, it's pointless now.
I am a recovering troll.
I am sorry.
No hard feelings. I have just been in similar situations, and I am a frustrated little man.
Olive branch.
Quote from: hari on June 04, 2010, 10:04:15 PMcan I have some popcorn with this?
br Hari
LMAO. These threads do get a bit like that, don't they? This isn't the first, nor, I suspect, will it be the last!
Quote from: skeptic on June 05, 2010, 01:35:23 AMMods - you may as well lock this thread, it's pointless now.
I disagree. If we return to your initial posting, you
did, IMHO, make some valid points. Unfortunately, they hav been lost in the ensuing flame war!
Various people have commented on the whole "if you don't contribute, your opinion is worthless" debate (on both sides). For my own part, I think a lot depends on what you mean by contribute. If you mean coding, then I disagree with the statement. If you mean involvement in all aspects (testing, documenting, helping, etc.) then I would agree with it. FWIW, I am considering going down Skeptic's path, at least until it's beyond Beta. My reasons are twofold:
- At a Beta level, as various people have said in other threads, it isn't ready for production. I work away and I need the system to jus keep working. Without failure or excuses. My own WAF / FAF depends on it. My wife is doing an MSc., my kids their school exams and the simply cannot have the internet go down. Even showing them which cable to move is not an acceptable solutions (you haven't met my family) so if MCE needs to be the router, then at a Beta level I cannot use it as I would like to.
- At this time, I ONLY want Media. I have no interest in (or use for) HA, Security, Telephony etc. Therefore the interface is cluttered. If I stick with MCE, I will hav to re-skin the interface to exclude the stuff I don't want or use (if that can be done). Again, I don't want to start a debate on this, but IMHO, the Telephony "row" in the Orbiter shouldn't even be shown until Telephony is set up. Same with Lighting etc. etc. Perhaps in the Orbiter re-write?
I am not, however, ready to move away from MCE yet. My reasons for staying are:
- I do want a unified system. Off-air TV. Recording TV. DVD's Music. Pictures. All with one interface. So far, I havn't seen anything else that does this.
- Whilst I support skeptic's desire for a non-PXE option for MD's. I want PXE booting. At least with MCE, I don't have to really think about it!
- I have already invested a lot of time and effort into MCE. I haven't (yet) got it up and running (!) but I don't want to chuck all that away. Plus, you're such a great bunch! (And I do NOT say that with any sense of sarcasm!)
Returning to Skeptic's original posting. What we MUST recognise, is that (almost without exception) everyone here is a techie. Getting genuine feedback from the target "end user" community is valuable and should not be ridiculed in this way. l3mce, your postings with pictures are inflamatory and pointless. It ISN'T about whether YOU find it easy, it's about whether the USER finds it easy. Call it personal preference. Call it stupidity. It doesn't matter. This user has made a comment and that comment is vslid.
Whenever I complete any work at all. Techie or otherwise. I always seek comment and approval from "outside". Often, a fresh pair of eyes sees something differently and can offer suggestions that I would not have considered, which may improve my project. Hell, I even get my wife to proof-read SMS messages to my ex-wife! Please, guys, see this thread in that light. You may not agree with Skeptic's wife, but you have to value her opinion (even if you ultimately ignore it!)
I would like to take his posting point-by-point though. Each point could well spawn its own thread!
Quote from: skeptic on June 03, 2010, 10:42:09 PM
Well guys, I hate to admit it but the wife has been somewhat unhappy with LinuxMCE from the start. She loves the idea of a central media center and various frontend MDs, as well as the potential for all the home automation stuff, integrated security and phone system, etc. Unfortunately she hates the interface. Ugly, non-intuitive, sometimes glitchy. She wants to be able pick up a remote and have everything make sense, not need to learn where stuff is or how to do things.
Since I had a spare 500G SATA drive in my closet, I went ahead and installed Mythbuntu for her to try. The wife is happy with it, so it looks like I'll be stepping away from linuxmce for a while. To be completely honest, I like it much better myself except for the lack of HA features.
So, a user finds the interface counter-intuitive and doesn't like the bugs. Furthermore, they have sited an example of something they prefer. Fair enough.
Quote from: skeptic on June 03, 2010, 10:42:09 PM
*rip out, rewrite, or otherwise get away from any proprietary code. LinuxMCE needs FOSS programmers, some FOSS programmers may shy away from a project built from and still limited by non-free licensing, even if it's just some areas.
Yes, he may be simply re-stating MCE "policy" here, but it's a worthy aim. I know a lot of FOSS developers are highly principled and wouldn't consider involvement in a project that wasn't totally open. Even here, the thought of integrating a proprietary system is met with hostility!
Quote from: skeptic on June 03, 2010, 10:42:09 PM
*stop chasing away potential users and developers. Rude belittling posts do nothing but hurt the project.
I ahve already commented on this above.
Quote from: skeptic on June 03, 2010, 10:42:09 PM
*listen to the users. If a question or complaint comes up often, there is a reason.
This is true, although not often a technical one! Maybe it's the documentation that's at fault. The one that springs to mind (for me) is the whole issue of having 2 NICs. We ALL know by now why 2 are required, but I'd bet every one of us cn think of reasons (at least for now) why we would rather it not be like that!
Quote from: skeptic on June 03, 2010, 10:42:09 PM
*more linux standard stuff, less wizardy stuff. Think of how many people run into the "black screen, press 1, 2, 3, etc." on hardware where a standard linux install works fine.
I agree. If I want to change something, I want that change to stick. Maybe better documentation is the key? For example, what if I want to keep my 2-NIC core, but have a second machine act as my internet router? (I.E. have two machines that are dual-homed) Where do I change the default gateway in MCE's setup? (I may have chosen a bad example here, but you get the idea.)
Quote from: skeptic on June 03, 2010, 10:42:09 PM
*If at all possible, get this to run on other distros.
I don't think this is practical, although (as I said above) I was under the impression that once 810 goes to release, future versions will be much faster to produce and we should be able to pretty much keep up with the Ubuntu releases. (Can anyone confirm this?)
Quote from: skeptic on June 03, 2010, 10:42:09 PM
*Do not force PXE booted MDs. Net booting is nice, it's slick, but sometimes being able to boot a MD from a local HD is a better option.
Again, I like this, but can see times when a local MD boot would be useful. Say I want to put an MD in a place where I simply cannot get a network cable? WiFi is the obvios solution, but PXE over WiFi?
Quote from: skeptic on June 03, 2010, 10:42:09 PM
*Put an end to the constand "need to reload router" and "need to regenerate orbiter" stuff.
Err. Yes. But how?? Would it be possible to have the orbiter regeneration be a background task so that the system can still be used while the regeneration is done? If I add something to the system which requires all orbiters to regenerate, that shouldn't stop people form using existing functionality (like watching a dvd) elsewhere.
Quote from: skeptic on June 03, 2010, 10:42:09 PM
Of course these are all suggestions, nobody can demand or even expect the devs to work on anything they don't want to (unless they are being directly paid for specific items). I'll still be lurking from time to time, I may even setup a test environment and continue to play around.
Like the man says, they are only suggestions!
thanks marrandy!
jeez this thread is a waste of space. Sounds like a bunch of middle managers going on about nothing. ::)
my only comment is that im a user too, and I dont seem to find things as difficult to deal with as others. But then maybe thats because I understand that people are DONATING their time to the project and try to involve myself in a CONSTRUCTIVE way instead of making useless comparisons to other software. There are clearly things that need improving, but to make all these public forum posts because nobody has time to implement your ideas for you or work on what you decide is the most important thing is frankly bs. I personally have yet to come across anything in this thread that doesn't sound like a bunch of 'waaah, listen to my ideas because they are so awesome!' I dont think its a bad idea to chase away people who have no concept of community and think that because they install something, they are owed something.
Maybe I should start sending bon bons and a Designing Women dvd to these people to help them cope...
-golgoj4, tired of the bitching.
I will single out one point to prove a bigger point,
"the issue with 2 NICs"
Sure, we'd love more intelligent configuration to adapt to existing networks, while keeping the existing functionality, the question is, who is going to do it?
If the answer is "One of the existing LinuxMCE" devs, be prepared to wait a few years while we get more pressing concerns out the door.
Myself, I am dividing my time between squashing bugs, giving user support, developing new features to provide examples, and trying to solve long standing systems issues by investigating other stacks. I suppose there is an unused slice of my body near my ass somewhere... *looks* .. nope.
-Thom
Glad to see the thread is at least sorta back to the original intent. After reading through my posts again as well as others I can see where some of the reactionary stuff comes from. I'm not going to apologize for anything, but if I could start over I would have left a few things out and worded things a bit differently.
The biggest "tiny little thing" that may have helped the thread go where I was hoping would be to call the original list "things to think about" instead of suggestions. Really, that's all I wanted to accomplish. Hope to get more of us thinking about ways to attract more people, both users and devs, to LinuxMCE. I tried to avoid specifics, although I did mention the "reload router" "regenerate orbiter" stuff because it comes up all the time and the wife always lets out a big "this again" type hmm and as far as I'm aware it's something that has never been discussed. Or if/when the orbiter is re-written it becomes a non-issue. It may be completely impractical to get away from it, I freely admit I have no clue. But in the spirit of "lets think about ways to improve the end user experience" I felt it was worth at least mentioning.
Peace.
*tosses hari another bag of popcorn*