Author Topic: Network layout question - all-in-one router.  (Read 3961 times)

pw44

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2010, 10:57:55 pm »
Well, very simple for me:
1) router with tomato - my working notebook, lmce (external nic) and my soundbridge plugged to it.
2) on the lmce internal NIC, a 1Gb switch and wireless AP, sip phones, security camera, md plugged on this switch
router firewall configured with forwarding rules, and lmce firewall with open ports for remote access.
All works well.
Not complicated.

phenigma

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2010, 11:22:19 pm »
GUYS!
STOP DOING THIS!

Please! just use the system as it is meant to be used, put everything on one network, let the core control and provision. It really does work!

Damn it, I'm getting _VERY_ tired of yelling at you all.

-Thom

If you use beta software for a production environment you are an idiot and deserve everything you get.

And there's my 2 eurocent.


So which is it then?  What is the developers consensus?  If I do as Thom says and put the core in control of everything then I would be an idiot as Zaerc says...  Excellent.  You have both been working on this system for a long time and people look to you both for guidance.  How are users supposed to know what to do now?

J.

trentend

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2010, 12:03:10 am »
I think it's relatively simple.

LinuxMCE is designed to be a consumer level all-in-one solution.  So connect it as the wiki suggests to your router and it will work (mainly, once you've twiddled with it a bit).  for most people this is all that you will need.

There are other people, who have specific requirements, and specific knowledge, that may use it in other non-supported (as much as anything is around here) ways.  Personally I have a problem with any one element being a single point of failure, as I have a problem with essential systems relying on computers/servers.  So what I have is a series of self-contained systems that work without any requirement for server level control.  I have a self contained heating control system, a knx based electrical and intrusion detection system (door sensors and PIR's), a 1-wire sensing system, a separate asterisk server integrated with POTS. I have quad LNB's on my satellite dishes so that they can run a setop box as well as DVB-S2 tuners in LinuxMCE.  I have purchased other items (like my Onkyo receiver) so that they give me what I want as a stand alone unit, as well as being capable of being integrated into LinuxMCE.  I have put together these items, and planned the construction and layout of my house in such a way that everything works without LinuxMCE, but can do more and work better with it.  I have not placed all my eggs in one basket - for example my heating control system has an integrated webserver with the capability for remote control, but I have also wired so that I could replace the thermostats, timers, and valves with KNX units if I later choose to go down that route.  I also have allowed for z-wave capability if KNX doesn't meet all of my needs.  I have a lot of spare power and CAT6 dotted around the place.  I have TV aerials, radio aerials (dab and FM) as well as my eight satellite feeds (from two separate dishes, one motorised).  I'm just not the sort of person to rely on one critical system working.

In addition to my LinuxMCE network I have a need for a work network (I work from home and integrate using vps with a number of sites that I administer from an IT perspective).  The scope of LinuxMCE just does not meet my needs in this area.  So my intention is to split LinuxMCE and my work network using VLANS over a Level2 smart switch (I've been working on that today, actually).  My router will connect to both subnets (work and LinuxMCE) but LinuxMCE will totally control, as designed, the home subnet.

I need it to work this way.  I may very well get shouted at here, and I expect it to require a lot of time and effort on my part to get it working, but then this is a long slow project for me and I accept that.

So that's where you need to be.  You either need to use the system as designed and take recommendations on equipment that it is known works well with LinuxMCE (something that I have found difficult to achieve in Europe when most of the available advice doesn't always apply as well), or you need to define your own requirements and be prepared to do your own legwork to get it working.

LinuxMCE is a marvelous piece of work almost without peer.  That does not mean that I agree with all design decisions, nor with what is well supported and what is poorly integrated or supported.  The framework is there to make it something special though, and I'm going to have a crack at making it work for me. 

If you really want an easy push to play system, then you need to speak to one of the system integrators and buy an off the shelf system.  If you want to do something against that intended usage of the developers you have to accept that you are on your own - they're stretched enough as it is.  Having said that, I believe that LinuxMCE can integrate with my requirements for a system, and my needs are outside the intended scope of LinuxMCE as designed.

wierdbeard65

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2010, 02:08:01 am »
If you use beta software for a production environment you are an idiot and deserve everything you get.
Good point, well made. As I see it, there are four options currently open:
  • Wait. Either use something else, or use nothing until 810 is "released".
  • Use 710. This is the only released version, but if you try to use it and ask questions, you are told in no uncertain terms to go with 810 as 710 is dead.
  • Be creative. That's what this thread (and others like it) are about. You do, however, risk breaking it all and getting a *thwack* from Thom  ;)
  • Go with 810 Beta. But then, as Zaerc says, you are an idiot.
So, guys, as phenigma says, which is it then? Thom, Zaerc, use 810 or not?
Paul
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totallymaxed

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2010, 06:51:59 pm »
If you use beta software for a production environment you are an idio
t and deserve everything you get.
Good point, well made. As I see it, there are four options currently open:
  • Wait. Either use something else, or use nothing until 810 is "released".
  • Use 710. This is the only released version, but if you try to use it and ask questions, you are told in no uncertain terms to go with 810 as 710 is dead.
  • Be creative. That's what this thread (and others like it) are about. You do, however, risk breaking it all and getting a *thwack* from Thom  ;)
  • Go with 810 Beta. But then, as Zaerc says, you are an idiot.
So, guys, as phenigma says, which is it then? Thom, Zaerc, use 810 or not?

Look as ever life is never quite a 'black & white' as that. We continue to ship stable 7.10 based Dianemo/Cascade systems that have about 95% of the 810 code integrated and working. These systems are designed to work 24/7 365 days a year and they do.

However if your someone who wants to mess around with your system from time to time...and you cause it to fail or have to take it offline from time to time... and you have a girlfriend or family then this may cause some friction ;-). So in those cases the various suggestions in this thread for 'insulating' yourself from the wrath of your significant others are valid. But in each case you are potentially creating a situation where you are adding complexity and distancing yourself from any support you might expect to get from the forum because your system is 'non standard'. But if your happy to support yourself technically then go for it.

Alternatively just make it possible to re-jig your LAN so that you can easily turn on DHCP on another device if you need to take your Core off-line for a while (thats what I do at home if I am testing something or need to change some hardware).

All the best

Andrew
Andy Herron,
Convergent Home Technologies Ltd

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wierdbeard65

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2010, 10:20:23 pm »
Valid points, Andrew (as always ;) )

I think these comments came about because of Zaerc and Thom's apparently opposing viewpoints. In all honesty, if I had the $$$ I'd beat a path to your door and purchase Dianemo/Cascade. I don't however, so I'm left with the forums as my support and a choice between Thom telling me to upgrade, Zaerc telling me not to, and doing something different whilst sheltering from the fallout :D

What I do see, however, is that I'm not alone in my frustration.....
Paul
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Zaerc

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2010, 02:37:23 am »
I made a general statement, and I stand by it. 

I said nothing about linuxmce, or the new version taking long to emerge, or the old version no longer being supported simply because the people who developed it are long gone (and never bothered to support anyone except the fiire customers anyway).  I never told anyone to upgrade or not, and as far as I know my views do not conflict with Thom's as I doubt he'd recommend anyone to use the beta version for a production environment that people depend on.

However some of the "clever" people around here seem to think that using a beta version gives them the right to bitch about their production systems getting fucked up.  Newsflash: your family and the abuse you put them through is no concern of ours.  And unless you are actually helping to get a release out the door you'd probably be better off keeping your frustration to yourself.  Now does that clear things up a bit?


Anyway, the simple emergency solution to faillure?

modem (DHCP) <---> LMCE (DHCP) <---> switch <---> ...

When the core breaks connect the switch directly to the modem.

modem (DHCP) <-------------------------> switch <---> ...

So one wire replug and a DHCP refresh later and everyone has internet again. 
"Change is inevitable. Progress is optional."
-- Anonymous


wierdbeard65

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2010, 10:07:14 am »
Zaerc,

I think offence is being taken when none is intended. This thread (as far as I can tell) started, like so many similar ones, by people trying to support each other in making the system more reliable whilst in beta. It attracted, as always, criticism and this discussion ensued.
And unless you are actually helping to get a release out the door you'd probably be better off keeping your frustration to yourself.
Please remember that help is not just sitting there coding. Without people trying to use it and having issues, a lot of the problems would not be found prior to release, that's what beta is all about (I've often heard it said that the world is Micro$oft's Beta test site ;)) In my own case, I'm having problems with the PXE boot of my MDs (I'm not alone, from what I've seen on the threads). As well as asking for help here, I am investigating elsewhere and, if I find the solution, I will report it and hopefully it will be integrated into the release. Is that not helping in some small way?

For my own part, I thought your comment about using Beta software seemed to conflict with other comments (not only from Thom) about not bothering with 710 and just going to 810. Maybe I misunderstood.

Anyway, I think enough has been said on this subject. There are clearly strongly held views! It is also clear that some people (for various reasons) need or want to use the system non-standard. I don't see that they should be prevented from discussing their needs here thoigh....
Paul
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Zaerc

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2010, 04:16:53 pm »
Zaerc,

I think offence is being taken when none is intended. This thread (as far as I can tell) started, like so many similar ones, by people trying to support each other in making the system more reliable whilst in beta. It attracted, as always, criticism and this discussion ensued.
And unless you are actually helping to get a release out the door you'd probably be better off keeping your frustration to yourself.
Please remember that help is not just sitting there coding. Without people trying to use it and having issues, a lot of the problems would not be found prior to release, that's what beta is all about (I've often heard it said that the world is Micro$oft's Beta test site ;)) In my own case, I'm having problems with the PXE boot of my MDs (I'm not alone, from what I've seen on the threads). As well as asking for help here, I am investigating elsewhere and, if I find the solution, I will report it and hopefully it will be integrated into the release. Is that not helping in some small way?

For my own part, I thought your comment about using Beta software seemed to conflict with other comments (not only from Thom) about not bothering with 710 and just going to 810. Maybe I misunderstood.

Anyway, I think enough has been said on this subject. There are clearly strongly held views! It is also clear that some people (for various reasons) need or want to use the system non-standard. I don't see that they should be prevented from discussing their needs here thoigh....

So how exactly do you expect that making a complicated mess of your home network will actually help with PXE booting?

And who or what is preventing anyone from discussing their needs then?  Surely not my remark about using beta software for a production environment... Or does that imply that only they are entitled to an opinion?

"Change is inevitable. Progress is optional."
-- Anonymous


wierdbeard65

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2010, 05:25:45 pm »
So how exactly do you expect that making a complicated mess of your home network will actually help with PXE booting?
This is, believe me, unrelated. At present, I have not (personally) made any changes to my network and have been using a similar aproach to the one you outlined with moving cables (the main difference is that when I'm not there, MCE is out of the loop). The PXE boot issue is discussed elsewhere and it would be silly to make comment here. If you think you can help, please take a look at this thread http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=9862.0
And who or what is preventing anyone from discussing their needs then?  Surely not my remark about using beta software for a production environment... Or does that imply that only they are entitled to an opinion?
Nobody is preventing it per-se, but do comments like
GUYS!
STOP DOING THIS!

Please! just use the system as it is meant to be used, put everything on one network, let the core control and provision. It really does work!

Damn it, I'm getting _VERY_ tired of yelling at you all.

-Thom
Actually encourage discussion?

Anyway, like I said, I think this discussion has run its course. and has certainly digressed from the OP's original question!
Paul
If you have the time to help, please see where I have got to at: http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User:Wierdbeard65

tschak909

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2010, 05:35:52 pm »
Yeah, I am sorry. I'm just frustrated when people take this system into areas where it was never intended to be supported, and people do not contribute patches so that the system CAN DO this in a supported manner...

-Thom

rperre

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2010, 06:36:21 pm »
I understand the frustration, but my setup does no harm to the lmce setup, which in my house is a completely separate network including it's own wireless (running 2 wireless in my house), biggest thing to me is that i can work on the system whenever i want to, and don't interrupt others that are on the internet. I'm not saying it's perfect, but in my case and maybe others it's a good solution with it's con's.

And to answer the question about dhcp, i am running 2 dhcp servers, 1 on the router behind the modem and the other one is the Core going to the lmce network. So the Core's eth0 get's an IP from that router, and this same router gives IP's to the "rest of the network". The Core than gives IP's to the lmce network over the eth1 nic. Hope this explains it.

With that said, when i'm satisfied with the system and it's running stable, i will put the Core as the main entry to my house and put everything on the lmce network saving me a bunch of switches and cabling.

BTW the NAS with dual NIC's sounds interesting in my case, thanks.

Richard

Zaerc

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2010, 03:38:55 am »
So how exactly do you expect that making a complicated mess of your home network will actually help with PXE booting?
This is, believe me, unrelated. At present, I have not (personally) made any changes to my network and have been using a similar aproach to the one you outlined with moving cables (the main difference is that when I'm not there, MCE is out of the loop). The PXE boot issue is discussed elsewhere and it would be silly to make comment here. If you think you can help, please take a look at this thread http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=9862.0
If you believe that is unrelated, then why bring it up in the first place?

And who or what is preventing anyone from discussing their needs then?  Surely not my remark about using beta software for a production environment... Or does that imply that only they are entitled to an opinion?
Nobody is preventing it per-se, but do comments like
GUYS!
STOP DOING THIS!

Please! just use the system as it is meant to be used, put everything on one network, let the core control and provision. It really does work!

Damn it, I'm getting _VERY_ tired of yelling at you all.

-Thom
Actually encourage discussion?

Anyway, like I said, I think this discussion has run its course. and has certainly digressed from the OP's original question!
So now people aren't allowed to have an opinion which discourages other people from making a mess of things?
"Change is inevitable. Progress is optional."
-- Anonymous


wierdbeard65

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2010, 04:06:47 am »
Man, you're really looking for an argument, aren't you?
If you believe that is unrelated, then why bring it up in the first place?
I mentioned this in relation to your comment saying people who aren't helping should just shut up.
So now people aren't allowed to have an opinion which discourages other people from making a mess of things?
If you read the rest of the thread, you'll see even Thom accepted he was a little agressive on that one!
Paul
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Zaerc

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Re: Network layout question - all-in-one router.
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2010, 03:39:26 pm »
Man, you're really looking for an argument, aren't you?
Unlike you apparently. :P

If you believe that is unrelated, then why bring it up in the first place?
I mentioned this in relation to your comment saying people who aren't helping should just shut up.
I'm not the one bringing up unrelated issues, just to turn around and say they aren't related.  And where exactly am I telling anyone to "just shut up"?

So now people aren't allowed to have an opinion which discourages other people from making a mess of things?
If you read the rest of the thread, you'll see even Thom accepted he was a little agressive on that one!
Now you are just making stuff up, I have read the this entire thread, I don't see Thom "accepting" anything.  But I guess that is your way of confirming that people aren't allowed to voice an opinion which discourages other people from making a mess of things.  In other words you're the one telling them to shut up (pot, kettle, surprise!).  And how exactly does that encourage discussion?


And would you mind not distorting what other people say?  Thanks in advance.
"Change is inevitable. Progress is optional."
-- Anonymous