Author Topic: pls dont nuke me, I have a question  (Read 3055 times)

chipppy

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pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« on: September 20, 2009, 04:20:49 pm »
Good Eveing

At the risk of being nuked I would like to ask a question relating to the base distro that LinuxMCE is based on.
Please correct me for my misunderstandings and mistake, but in a constructive manner.
I ask this question in the hope of helping the LinuxMCE development team of producing big and better version in as fast a time frame as possible.  i also want to free up the valuable developer tim for developing the really cool, bleeeding edge stuff that you guy do instead of bogging you guys down in the more mundane stuff that has already been completed by others in other distros

Firstly full respect to all that have worked hard to get LinuxMCE to where it is today.

Your try to release a new rev every 12 months.  I feel that this is hard to achieve, due to the size of the development team.
Why not base you rev's on the LTS from the Ubuntu team.  this means a longer 18months between major releases but these are supported but the ubuntu team longer and therefore you have more chance of getting a super stable release over time. 
This will allow LinuxMCE to develop a name as a super stable projec that is super reliable (eg Debian distro type respect)

Also
LinuxMCE is based on Kubuntu the KDE version of Ubuntu but doesnt use a huge amount o the KDE desktop features.
LinuxMCE has a small developmen team, when compared to other projects (especially the Ubuntu team).
                This help people to understand why LinuxMCE is a couple of releases behind the Kubuntu release version (9.10 very shortly)
LinuxMCE used a fair few components from MythTV, as far as I understand

Is it possible to use the Mythbuntu distro instead of the Kubunt distro.  This would mean that the Ubuntu team has already completed a heap of the MythTv intergration into ubuntu for you guys.  I dont know what percentage this would reduce your work load by but anyamount is more time on the cool features.

Anyone i hope people take this the way it is intended.
As a possitive couple of questions, with the intent to create positive discussion to help the development team.

Anyway here hoping

Cheers
chipppy
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posde

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2009, 05:01:32 pm »
nuke

The current release is so much behind the Kubuntu release, as this is the first release which 100% community created. We had to understand a lot of things, and provide a lot of infrastructure, before we were able to really do any work. Especially Zaerc has invested a gargantum amount of time to understand the build system, and provide a structure that we can now rely upon for building stuff.

I strongly believe after 810 is out, the next release will not be as much behind as 810, and might even be faster than the 710 release.

Basing on the LTS version of (K)Ubuntu is not a good idea, as especially the media area of Linux changes quite rapidly, so it makes sense to be as close to the latest version as possible.

Initially, Kubuntu had some windows management APIs that we use. That's the reason, why LinuxMCE is based upon Kubuntu.

I hope this clarifies a few things.

chipppy

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2009, 04:10:52 pm »
Good Evening

Thanks for the info.

Cheers
chipppy
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Ray_N

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2009, 02:56:03 pm »

Is it possible to use the Mythbuntu distro instead of the Kubunt distro.  This would mean that the Ubuntu team has already completed a heap of the MythTv intergration into ubuntu for you guys.  I dont know what percentage this would reduce your work load by but anyamount is more time on the cool features.


What about the Mythbuntu aspect of his question? I haven't played w/Mythbuntu yet, but it seems like a reasonable question...

chipppy

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 03:22:40 pm »
Good Evening

I agree with above.. What is people thoughts about using the Mythbuntu distro instead of Kubuntu.  This has the possibliity of reducing development time and therefore reduce time between releases.

I was thinking about the LTS side of things.  I agree with trying to keep up with the latest developments in Linux world.  The only thing is I have read alot of bad press about LinuxMCE simply because of the old distro and therefore the 'instability' of it.  I think this is a misnoma because of the age of the base distro is the instability issue. 
While LTS is another 6 months between distro upgrades it is always possible to add special patches in if there is the mass benifit in doing so.  Eg a kernel upgrade due to specfic support for problem hardware that is super popular.
I refer to the name that the 'Debia' distro has.  It has a rel period of 12-18months and is renown for support of older hardware and being super stable.  The super stable and support is the key point here.
A lot of people just want a HTPC that works.  Once it is setup they dont want to have to touch it again, unless they find a new 'toy' to add or it breaks. 
It breaks can be hardware or software.
We all know the mean time to crash for windows systems.  Linux has a great name for massive uptime and support for older hardware.  It would be great is we could build on that name with a system that is support for many years (6 years for LTSreleases)  remember Windos XP is 8+ years old and most people are still using it today.  Ask any office work what window OS they are using today XP or Vista?

People like the fimilar beast.  It makes then feel secure. 

Remember
1 happy customer tells 3 people per year
1 unhappy customer tells 10 people per year.
happy X 6 years =18 new customers 

While not strictly true this is a business, we are selling a product/service.  We need to promot LinuxMCE in it best possible light.

Anyway thats my 2 bobs worth

Cheers
chipppy
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totallymaxed

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2009, 03:43:11 pm »

Is it possible to use the Mythbuntu distro instead of the Kubunt distro.  This would mean that the Ubuntu team has already completed a heap of the MythTv intergration into ubuntu for you guys.  I dont know what percentage this would reduce your work load by but anyamount is more time on the cool features.


What about the Mythbuntu aspect of his question? I haven't played w/Mythbuntu yet, but it seems like a reasonable question...

Well its still the same MythTV version in either so I cant see any advantage at all...Mythbuntu is a great Myth distribution...but its does not help in anyway with what we have to do to integrate Myth within LinuxMCE I'm afraid...believe me if the Devs thought that would be of any help...they'd jump at it ;-).

All the best

Andrew
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posde

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 07:37:18 am »
While not strictly true this is a business, we are selling a product/service.

I don't know about you, but I am not selling anything. I work on LinuxMCE to make LinuxMCE better, more stable, more PnP friendly.

totallymaxed

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 09:13:36 am »
While not strictly true this is a business, we are selling a product/service.  We need to promot LinuxMCE in it best possible light.

I'm afraid your comment isn't even vaguely true...this Forum/Community 'sells' nothing. In fact we give 'away' our time, effort, code, expertise and openly accept anyone who wants to join us. Simple as that.

All the best

Andrew
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ShamIAm

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 10:27:50 am »
Oliver and Andrew,

Stop jumping on the Open-Source horse.

Quote
this Forum/Community 'sells' nothing

I would have to say that this forum, and it's illuminati, frequently sells the pros/cons of LinuxMCE. Selling does not require the exchange of money, sometimes "selling" just means getting someone to like an idea. The orginal poster is obviously implying that we sell this great idea, and all the work that has been put into it so that we can broaden the user base and thus hopefully the development base.

Quote
openly accept anyone who wants to join us

The forums have gotten better since moderation, but the fact that this is being said means it probably isn't completly true. For instance, when someone makes a suggestion that they think would help lighten the load they should have that question addressed, not some missinterprettation of a corner of their post rode. Point posts like this in the right direction, why won't the Mythbuntu help? Is it a KDE thing?

I apoligize for further devolving this thread, because I don't have any answers either.


tschak909

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2009, 12:26:39 pm »
Those of you not working on the code base, if you actually jumped in, and dug in, you would understand that going to MythBuntu is basically moot, because:

(1) we also use VDR.
(2) we have an entire plug and play system that overlays the underlying distribution, with massive sets of setup script to support it.

These mechanisms would not change in any shape or form simply because we transposed things. Keep in mind, that we have to extensively test changes to see how they affect the surrounding subsystems, because we integrate things in ways that "media centers" do not even begin to think of.

-Thom

totallymaxed

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2009, 01:18:47 pm »
Oliver and Andrew,

Stop jumping on the Open-Source horse.

Quote
this Forum/Community 'sells' nothing

I would have to say that this forum, and it's illuminati, frequently sells the pros/cons of LinuxMCE. Selling does not require the exchange of money, sometimes "selling" just means getting someone to like an idea. The orginal poster is obviously implying that we sell this great idea, and all the work that has been put into it so that we can broaden the user base and thus hopefully the development base.

Quote
openly accept anyone who wants to join us

The forums have gotten better since moderation, but the fact that this is being said means it probably isn't completly true. For instance, when someone makes a suggestion that they think would help lighten the load they should have that question addressed, not some missinterprettation of a corner of their post rode. Point posts like this in the right direction, why won't the Mythbuntu help? Is it a KDE thing?

I apoligize for further devolving this thread, because I don't have any answers either.



No 'Horse Jumping' going on here at all....read Thom's post above... he actually writes an enormous amount of code for all of us here...and therefore he knows intimately how LinuxMCE is architected and coded.  You actually need to spend some time reading the code and understanding how LinuxMCE works 'under the hood'...then you would understand why MythBuntu is not going to help at all.

All the best

Andrew
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trentend

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2009, 04:37:51 pm »
.....Basing on the LTS version of (K)Ubuntu is not a good idea, as especially the media area of Linux changes quite rapidly, so it makes sense to be as close to the latest version as possible.......

On the basis of my limited understanding, I'm going to disagree with that.

What matters most to someone who has successfully installed a system - that it continues receiving security updates and keeps working, or it supports more and more hardware (that that person probably doesn't have access to)? Sure you want the system to support as much modern hardware as possible, but you want it to be secure first and foremost - especially as the system is designed to use the core as a visible device on the wider internet.

My situation is unusual, when I setup my system it wont be easy.  At home I need to support two different networks (one work based, and one for linuxmce). Currently we only have seven months security support left for the operating system on which the development version of linuxmce is based.  This is a system that hasn't been released yet.

My network will need to be secure. It will be linked both to my home work network and also to a critical work network at a larger site. I do not feel that I can entrust routing and security of my home system to linuxmce in its current form.

tschak909

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2009, 04:41:37 pm »
Then help us improve it. Or are you too busy for that?

I'm seriously tired of people who go out of their way to do insane customizations and requirements, yet they CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO HELP US MELD THOSE REQUIREMENTS INTO THE SYSTEM FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS.

-Thom
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 04:43:58 pm by tschak909 »

trentend

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2009, 05:18:13 pm »
Then help us improve it. Or are you too busy for that?

I'm seriously tired of people who go out of their way to do insane customizations and requirements, yet they CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO HELP US MELD THOSE REQUIREMENTS INTO THE SYSTEM FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS.

-Thom

I'm sorry if I have somehow offended you, by stating my opinion.

How would you have me improve it?  I'm certainly intending to contribute everything that I learn during my install - which hasn't started yet, and to further contribute particularly in areas like KNX integration which is a specific interest of mine, and any other areas where I can add to the collective knowledge already available.

In the short term, I'm not going to be able to help so much.  Partly because I am building a house in my spare time so time is an issue (as well as me being an employer of nearly fifty people in manufacturing in the UK - a sector already under immense pressure, as am I, at a time of global recession), and partly because I'm trying to learn what I need to successfully implement a linuxmce system - which is non-trivial given the state of the documentation, the application itself, and the generosity with which the asking of questions is sometimes greeted on here.

Please do not see every stated opinion as an affront to your dignity. Feedback and help from users is often considered of value to projects such as these.  If you discourage them you will lose the benefits of this feedback, and wonder why nobody with slightly varying opinions is interested in helping you at all, when all you do is shout them down.

I have broadly a hundred questions about linuxmce and the specifics of what I want to implement. On the whole I'm trying to determine the answers myself, rather than ask.....because having slightly non-standard needs, or asking technical questions on here (except for a small number of generous respondents) is often met with enough frustration and aggression to encourage people to seek every possible alternative, rather than getting more deeply involved.

.....for the record, for even a technically adept user, the quality and structure of the documentation isn't good enough to get even close to encouraging people to join the project.  I will do so because I am thick skinned and interested in linuxmce for its technical merits rather than how friendly the community is.  I shall contribute back to the project with every piece of knowledge that I verify first hand, that I cannot find here elsewhere.

I don't think it's very nice the way you express yourself in this matter, and it certainly wont be something I'm doing as a response to your crude apparent lack of understanding in how open source projects grow and evolve.

jimbodude

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Re: pls dont nuke me, I have a question
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2009, 05:20:25 pm »
trentend: The documentation is in Wiki format for a reason - if you'd like to contribute for it, that would be great for everyone - go for it.  ;)