Author Topic: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality  (Read 70899 times)

wierdbeard65

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #135 on: July 01, 2009, 08:54:38 pm »
Having read through this thread, I for one need a small portion of humble pie. The documentation is better than I thought (although maybe someone has been improving it without me noticing it) although I still think the indexing of EVERYTHING on the wiki could be improved.

But that's kind of where the humble pie comes in.

Let me explain, Tim.

You make statements criticising Thom for telling people to get stuck in, claiming we're not all coders. You are correct, but try thinking wider. For example, someone suggested that a Twitter feed might help with PR. Did they simply say "we need a twitter feed, anyone care to set one up?"? No, they just went ahead and did it. That isn't coding, it's someone who has a skill using it to the good of the project. I believe they are as much in the trenches as Thom (although maybe slightly further back from the front line!)

And that's the point. IF more managemt is needed, then management people just need to start DOING it and not TALKING about it. IF financial gurus think money would help, then they need to raise that money and not just say it is needed and so on.

I'm guilty of SAYING the wiki needs organising, when I should just go ahead and DO it. You see? Management isn't always about delegation.

Having said that, I don't understand the information in the Wiki well enough (yet) to be comfortable that I wouldn't be doing more harm than good, so if someone else (who does understand it better) wants to have a go, feel free.

Thom, may I personally applaud your initiative in providing mini "projects" to cut our teeth on? I suspect the DoxyGen one came out of earlier postings here, but the torrent one is really good. You understand the system well enough to be able to post these types of tasks in the knowledge that they are accessable to and achievable by lower-ability programmers. And maybe THAT's the type of management needed.

So, anyone who has objected to my comments, my unreserved apologies.

Can we all now get on with DOING and stop TALKING?

(One question, why did my Karma take a hammering and Tim's didn't? Not that I'm sensitive, you understand  ;D)
Paul
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tschak909

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #136 on: July 01, 2009, 09:16:48 pm »
*claps*

-Thom

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #137 on: July 01, 2009, 10:00:09 pm »
Please allow me to juxtapose two quotes:

IF more managemt is needed, then management people just need to start DOING it and not TALKING about it. IF financial gurus think money would help, then they need to raise that money and not just say it is needed and so on.

Before you cry, "well just do all that stuff and stop complaining", you need to know that all that stuff falls into one or both of two categories.  The first requires cooperation from the key developers (how can a graphic designer contribute to a GUI if he doesn't code, or how can a PR person describe to the press about where the project is going without a clear plan being agreed?). 

Similarly, how can a financial guru raise money for the project if there is no clear plan for him to present to potential investors? I think Tim's point is that there are roadblocks which are preventing people from DOING certain things, and there needs to be TALK about those roadblocks so that they can be identified and removed.

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #138 on: July 01, 2009, 10:11:13 pm »
Please allow me to juxtapose two quotes:

IF more managemt is needed, then management people just need to start DOING it and not TALKING about it. IF financial gurus think money would help, then they need to raise that money and not just say it is needed and so on.

Before you cry, "well just do all that stuff and stop complaining", you need to know that all that stuff falls into one or both of two categories.  The first requires cooperation from the key developers (how can a graphic designer contribute to a GUI if he doesn't code, or how can a PR person describe to the press about where the project is going without a clear plan being agreed?). 

Similarly, how can a financial guru raise money for the project if there is no clear plan for him to present to potential investors? I think Tim's point is that there are roadblocks which are preventing people from DOING certain things, and there needs to be TALK about those roadblocks so that they can be identified and removed.

Well this is not a 'startup' looking for VC funding so i am not sure your example above is quite on target - but i understand where your coming from. But look at wierdbeard65's post just above where he very effectively describes what this community is about... if your a person who has expertise in raising money then just use that ex[ertise to come up with a plan to help fund some of the activities here...sponsorship (without strings) maybe or companies willing to subsidise something for the benefit of all members...whatever it is. The important thing is to go and invent the the idea and figure out how it fits... or whether it fits into what this place is about and get the conversation going. Don't get all defensive if no one likes the idea...go and invent another one or adapt and improve the first one(kinda like optimising some 'code' ;-) )...show your putting valuable ideas into the 'pot' and people will respond positively to that.

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tschak909

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #139 on: July 01, 2009, 10:17:35 pm »
It is worth noting that the goals really are specific, and haven't changed since Pluto devised the system in 2004.

* Lights
* Media
* Climate
* Telecom
* Security

This feature set is present in the current iteration of the system, and just needs to be finished.

-Thom

wierdbeard65

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #140 on: July 01, 2009, 10:57:34 pm »
Please allow me to juxtapose two quotes:

IF more managemt is needed, then management people just need to start DOING it and not TALKING about it. IF financial gurus think money would help, then they need to raise that money and not just say it is needed and so on.

Before you cry, "well just do all that stuff and stop complaining", you need to know that all that stuff falls into one or both of two categories.  The first requires cooperation from the key developers (how can a graphic designer contribute to a GUI if he doesn't code, or how can a PR person describe to the press about where the project is going without a clear plan being agreed?). 

Similarly, how can a financial guru raise money for the project if there is no clear plan for him to present to potential investors? I think Tim's point is that there are roadblocks which are preventing people from DOING certain things, and there needs to be TALK about those roadblocks so that they can be identified and removed.

Ahh, nobody has said "don't talk" have they? IF you have a specific question, ask it. I really am getting my head around the whole MCE devs point of view. BUT where they are wrong (if I may be so bold) is in limiting it to coding. They say things like they won't spoon-feed new developers, but if someone has a question about a particular module, they should ask. They (and we) need to widen that out to all aspects of the project. Even with a "clear plan" as you put it, there will be no timescale as we have no paid developers, so it's all down to goodwill. IF you are talking to someone in your role as PR or Finance, and they ask a question that you can't answer from the Wiki or Forums searching, then ask here! For example "will the xxx widget be supported?" or "How much cash should I set aside for hardware?" or <insert difficult question here> can be passed on to the community. Someone will answer with "I'm working on a template for that" or "Well, I set mine up for tuppence ha'pny" or whatever. This isn't the type of thing that can be managed with GANTT charts, I'm afraid! IF you need a discussion on something, START THE DISCUSSION, don't ask why someone else hasn't!!!

XBMC - yes, well, very nice but I want to record stuff off-air mainly (main reason for MCE for me) does it do that? Not last time I looked - It's a PLAYER Dude. Why haven't I gone Myth or VDR? Two reasons - Orbiter Interface and Expandability for the future.

Good point that touches on a big sentiment maker/breaker in my opinion:
(One question, why did my Karma take a hammering and Tim's didn't? Not that I'm sensitive, you understand  ;D)
I find that a lot of people get some nice negative karma as a thank you for their contributions. I keep telling myself to not read too much into it, but it is just frustrating to see when people who try to help get hammered. At the time of writing, my karma just reduced to -5 and I wonder why. My only post this week or so was an attempt to get someone's problem a bit clearer.
The fact that your karma is at about -50 is just shocking  :o.
Personally, I'd like to be able to turn it off and not be frustrated by it anymore.
There. Now let's see what this does to my "karma".
Well, I applauded you, so you're up by one ;D Seriously, if that is to mean anything, the number of Smites etc should be on the posting. That way, it's clear where you're going wrong and the casual visitor can see that a posting has not been popular (without the need for flaming ;) )

I'd support it's removal though :)
Paul
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tschak909

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #141 on: July 01, 2009, 11:03:00 pm »
You will be missed.

It is unfortunate that you equate XBMC's focus and scope with ours, as they are not even close.

But, oh well.

-Thom

tschak909

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #142 on: July 01, 2009, 11:27:26 pm »
So did Pluto. The architecture and management was solid enough for them to build the core system with the original set of features. The last 10% wound up killing them off before they could finish it....short term investor pressures....

Stop assuming things. You're showing your lack of knowledge here.

-Thom

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #143 on: July 01, 2009, 11:45:44 pm »
This is not a constructive discussion
I see two people who do not want to step off from their standpoints
Agree that you disagree.

@Tmoore
Why not set up a framework of management, it is open source.
I will apply for CEO or CFO with bonus ;)

wierdbeard65

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #144 on: July 02, 2009, 12:02:43 am »
D'oh!  You missed/ignored the point again!

I have? Oh, sorry. Let me look at what you said:

There's little that XBMC can't do that LinuxMCE can, and pretty much all of the rest is in the pipeline.

So recording / showing off-air, controlling the lighting / heating / security, integrating with the telephone system (shall I go on?) are trivial are they?

Look, Dude, nobody is forcing you to stay here. Initially, like a lot of others, I criticized Thom for his outburst. Unlike many, however, I'm adult enough to listen to what he said, investigate the Wiki and acknowledge that this project is not some dead-in-the water waste of time and energy. I don't profess to understand everything on the wiki, and would prefer to have it in simpler terms, but I have to acknowledge it is there and anyone who is prepared to get involved (sensibly) will be welcomed and supported.

I am probably being unfair here, but the tone of your posts, particularly the first few smacked of "I'm a manager and you need management". Well, I'm an educator, but you don't see me suggesting setting up a development school (although come to think of it...) How many psychologists are posting offering Thom et al stress counseling? The simple fact is that not every skill has a place here. Many, however, do and if you have a skill you think you can use, use it, don't shout about how everyone else should ask you to use it.

What I find amazing is that despite saying goodbye several times, you are still here - something is keeping you. I hope it's a recognition that MCE is so much more than the alternatives. I suspect that part of it is a dogged determination to have the last word.
Paul
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hari

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #145 on: July 02, 2009, 12:15:40 am »
I hope this project succeeds, for the thousands of users who have put their hard earned time and money into trying to get the product to work.

hehe, that is a really good one. What a pity that you've deleted yor account Timothy. I still have some popcorn left..

br, Hari

EDIT: and just for the records: I never said that one can't contribute without coding. We have many contributors that don't code. But some might have missed the fact that we could use some additional ppl with coding skills. That does not imply that coding is the only way to contribute..
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 12:18:39 am by hari »
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wierdbeard65

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #146 on: July 02, 2009, 12:21:41 am »
hehe, that is a really good one. What a pity that you've deleted your account Timothy. I still have some popcorn left..

Looks like my main contribution so far (and Timmy's) was to provide some light relief for the developers ;D

Anyhow, shall we start a sweep stake on how long it will be before he's back under a different name? I'll put a Euro on a week.... Can you set up a scan on IP address to check??? <VBG> (New way to raise venture capital perhaps?)
Paul
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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #147 on: July 02, 2009, 12:24:25 am »
hehe, that is a really good one. What a pity that you've deleted your account Timothy. I still have some popcorn left..

Looks like my main contribution so far (and Timmy's) was to provide some light relief for the developers ;D

Anyhow, shall we start a sweep stake on how long it will be before he's back under a different name? I'll put a Euro on a week.... Can you set up a scan on IP address to check??? <VBG> (New way to raise venture capital perhaps?)

Look he is obviously frustrated, by himself or by your reaction, does not matter. But he raised some good points.
Also can wierbeard65 keep is sexlive private, what you do with the devs, can stay in #dev ;)

hari

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #148 on: July 02, 2009, 12:28:45 am »
when did I ask for relief? I've never said that I'm overworked or need relief :-) We just have tons of things left to do so it will be faster if more people help and invest time..

br, Hari
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Itsik

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #149 on: July 02, 2009, 01:08:46 am »
I've been following this post for the last couple of days and I have to say that some of the responses here really puzzle me.
As I understand it, Thom was simply trying to stress out to the community how badly this project needs more people to role up their sleeves and help the VARY few people that are working on it.
As a result I now see 10 pages of a discussion revolving around what people believe needs to be done and how they think it should be done. It seems to me that some of the people here are simply missing a vary simple point.

If you think the PR of this project needs to be better, take it into your hands and do something about it...

If you think the wiki needs to be improved, improve it...

If you think the gui/HW support/(put anything else here) needs to be added/improved, just do it...

If you think the project needs money, get up and raise it...

Its really that simple and this goes for any other area you'd like to improve.
If you run into obstacles while at it, ask for help, you will get it.

Don't expect any one to hold your hand and tell you that we need this or that. That's not gonna happen. Why ? Because we need EVERYTHING, be it Device templates, PR, Documentation, GUI/Usability improvements, better web presence and list goes on and on ...
So the idea is simple, there's basically nothing that you can add/improve in that system that is not "needed".

Just remember that you can create a kind of a band aid for something you need to or you can add it correctly. The amount of work you need to put in might be bigger but if you're doing it anyway, why not ask one of the devs for some guidance on how to achieve your goal correctly ?

If you think this project needs to be structured differently, that's cool. If, on top of it, you have, at least, spent a sufficient amount of time getting to know the system and it's inner workings, and you think you know enough to be able to determine what's good for the system and the community (and a good manager will know when he's ready to make any suggestions/comments about a new project he's getting into ...) , then by all means, come up with a plan that you think is suitable and bring it to the table where it can be discussed and decided upon. But remember that unless all of the above is true then any suggestion of this nature can not be taken seriously.

In short people: IF YOU WANNA SHOOT, SHOOT, DON'T TALK !!!

It seems to me that that's what the devs are trying to tell you again and again.

My two cents ...
Itsik