Author Topic: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality  (Read 37188 times)

nite_man

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #90 on: June 28, 2009, 12:46:56 am »
I'm not talking about corporate structure. I just suggest to make things clearer. write code - good. I can write code. But what code I should write? From the tickets? Personally I'm not so creative as Tom or you. It's a good idea to read doc and dig system. But how much time it'll take? One, two, three monthes or more? Instead of that Tom, you, Posde can manage newbie developers and help them to learn system quickly.
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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #91 on: June 28, 2009, 02:18:40 am »
I'm not talking about corporate structure. I just suggest to make things clearer. write code - good. I can write code. But what code I should write? From the tickets? Personally I'm not so creative as Tom or you. It's a good idea to read doc and dig system. But how much time it'll take? One, two, three monthes or more? Instead of that Tom, you, Posde can manage newbie developers and help them to learn system quickly.

But thats the point that we have made numerous times here in this thread...we need experienced developers. Your previous posting, that I was responding to, only spoke of 'hierarchy', 'project management' & 'team leaders'. We're dont need more of those things...we need more experienced developers who can work on this code-base. Its simple really project managers dont write code...and to be frank newbie developers are not what we need in the core development team...we need developers who already have the skills required to get upto speed quickly. That is not to say there is no role for the newbie...but the core developers dont have the time to train newbies...newbies will have to dig into the codebase and learn by doing...sure ask questions but dont expect 'one on one' training.

All the best

Andrew
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Techstyle

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #92 on: June 28, 2009, 09:38:04 pm »
You are correct we need experienced Developers and all should be actively spreading the LMCE word and trying to recruit people with such skills.  What would these new developers work on?

What we do have though is a bunch of regular users, regular forum posters that have expressed an interest to help, which I think is good.  It is apparent that the existing devs do not have time to teach these users while they are busy heading towards 0810 release.  That being said these users could help in some areas but what should they work on?

I am an experienced PM managing New Product Development and Off shoring Projects both with global teams.  These projects can need varying levels of Management but all need a focused task driven plan.  For LMCE I would not suggest heavy management or team leaders but I would suggest developing a list of tasks required to get us from where we are today to Production release.  This list of tasks would make it easier for new developers to get involved and for the regular user group to take on the non-programming tasks.  It would also help to give visibility to what was ahead.

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wierdbeard65

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #93 on: June 28, 2009, 10:42:51 pm »
Hmm...

How about this?

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Developers_Guide


Ok, I'm on to it, so I'm reading and according to section 4:

Quote
The DCERouter process is listening on 3450 port.

Very clear, but.... TCP or UDP? Neither is mentioned. From the talk of connections, I'm assuming TCP, but I don't want to waste time trying to make something work when my basic assumptions are wrong ;)

Also, I see from the CVS download (I haven't downloaded it yet, just browsed it online, so don't flame me!) that DoxyGen is used. Can we get to the documentation produced?

What I'm after is a technical reference guide. A complete reference to all the classes, their methods etc. with a full explanation of what each is for, where and when it is used blah blah blah!  ;D  Is that on the wiki anywhere? If so, PLEASE lead me by the hand and show me how to find it.....

I don't know what others mean when they talk about developer documentation, but I don't think it is helpful to have to unpick source code to work out how it all fits together.
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geekyhawkes

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #94 on: June 28, 2009, 10:47:05 pm »
WB:

maybe as you go thorugh this process you could compile somethign that would guide others in a way you find easier.  As we are not limited in the number of wiki entries, anything extra (that is accurate) will always help as different people look for / respond to information in different ways. 

Also, as and when I finish my user guides for 0810, i can annex your findings in the back so "newbies" have the tools available to move forward.

Just an idea.

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #95 on: June 28, 2009, 11:15:48 pm »
Dude, if you're a developer and you can't read source code...

...you need to learn more before ever tackling a system like LinuxMCE.

hmm.

Give me a break, guys. Yes, this documentation assumes you are capable of inductive and deductive reasoning and being able to think for yourself.

Yes, port 3450 is mentioned.. but which? use a port scanning program, or lsof, or hell, just guess. It's either/or, isn't it? and when you figure it out, guess what? YOU PUT IT IN THE DOCS! IT'S A WIKI! OPEN COLLABORATION FOR ALL.

I do NOT have time for people who willingly refuse to learn, and I am sorry, spoon feeding is NOT learning. I have no time to spoon feed developers who MAY or MAY NOT contrbute later. You all feel as if you are ENTITLED to being lead by the hand. I have news for all of us. We are entitled to NOTHING in this life. Not even Living. Even that is a gift, so we should all consider ourselves lucky, and make the most of it.

I hate replying in this manner, because it paints me out to be the asshole. However, I need to make one thing exceedingly clear. I bend over backwards to those who try and put in effort and initiative. How do I determine those people? by the questions they ask. The more specific the question you ask, the more specific my answers will be. Those of you who have taken the time to learn know this to be true of me.

Stop being children. I am not your father figure. Grow up and take some initiative.

-Thom

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #96 on: June 28, 2009, 11:22:09 pm »
With that said... the code can be run through doxygen to produce api docs. After the 0810 release, I will personally set up a section on the builder to generate those documents to be placed on a public web server.

Unless somebody wants to take this task.

-Thom

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #97 on: June 28, 2009, 11:29:42 pm »
I didn't say I couldn't read the source code. What I said was that given DoxyGen is there, I shouldn'd need to!!!

I have to ask, have you actually READ most of the posts here? You devs who have posted need to decide what you actually want. Help or stress. It's THAT simple!

Let me use an analogy. If you invitred me to visit. Wouldn't you tell me how to find you? Or would you expect me to Google your post-code, find the nearest airport. Risk getting a hotel in a rough part of town and then just hope I can find the correct street? No, you already know that stuff so you'd save me the pain and tell me which airport, recommend a hotel and probably offer to come and pick me up.

Documentation is as much a part of development as coding is. Systems like DoxyGen semi-automate the process, to make it as least-hassle as possible.

I'm beginning to suspect that all this resistance is because all the documentation is in the heads of the developers and not in ANY way written down.

Earlier in this thread you said "ask specific questions". I just did "TCP or UDP" and did I get a straight answer, no. I was basically told to f**k off and work it out for myself. Quite frankly, if that is the attitude of the core devs, then you guys don't deserve any help or additional devs to join the team.

Andrew, you said it wasn't about a "rite of passage". You are wrong. There would only appear to be 5 people on this planet with the neccessary skills to develop for MCE, by the definition of those 5 people! If the only way to gain entry to the inner sanctum is to unpick the source code and not ask questions (the rite of passage) then you will be VERY lucky to find a number 6.

For crying out loud you guys. WHY the resistence to DOCUMENTATION? WHAT are you HIDING? Documentation is NOT spoon-feeding, Thom!
Paul
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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #98 on: June 28, 2009, 11:30:59 pm »
With that said... the code can be run through doxygen to produce api docs. After the 0810 release, I will personally set up a section on the builder to generate those documents to be placed on a public web server.

Unless somebody wants to take this task.

-Thom

You posted while I was typing my response.

That would be most helpful, but wouldn't it be even more helpful to take the time to add this to the build process now?
Paul
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hari

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #99 on: June 28, 2009, 11:39:06 pm »
* hari gets some popcorn.. (but not to feed any trolls)
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tschak909

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #100 on: June 28, 2009, 11:44:04 pm »
With that said... the code can be run through doxygen to produce api docs. After the 0810 release, I will personally set up a section on the builder to generate those documents to be placed on a public web server.

Unless somebody wants to take this task.

-Thom

You posted while I was typing my response.

That would be most helpful, but wouldn't it be even more helpful to take the time to add this to the build process now?

See, this is the problem...

Why doesn't somebody take to doing this? we're all stretched as it is, and there is nothing preventing you from checking out the source code, and running doxygen on it.

If you want it, come to the #linuxmce-devel channel and work with us, and we'll give you what you need to add this to our servers so it can be available for everyone.

If everyone expects someone else to do something, that something will never get done. It's that simple.

SO STEP UP.

-Thom

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #101 on: June 28, 2009, 11:46:27 pm »
See, this is the problem...

Why doesn't somebody take to doing this? we're all stretched as it is, and there is nothing preventing you from checking out the source code, and running doxygen on it.

If you want it, come to the #linuxmce-devel channel and work with us, and we'll give you what you need to add this to our servers so it can be available for everyone.

If everyone expects someone else to do something, that something will never get done. It's that simple.

SO STEP UP.

-Thom

Ok, as soon as I have my development rig set up, I'll head on over. If I can help by adding this, then I'll consider my contributions have started  ;D
Paul
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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #102 on: June 29, 2009, 12:18:13 am »
I didn't say I couldn't read the source code. What I said was that given DoxyGen is there, I shouldn'd need to!!!

I have to ask, have you actually READ most of the posts here? You devs who have posted need to decide what you actually want. Help or stress. It's THAT simple!

Let me use an analogy. If you invitred me to visit. Wouldn't you tell me how to find you? Or would you expect me to Google your post-code, find the nearest airport. Risk getting a hotel in a rough part of town and then just hope I can find the correct street? No, you already know that stuff so you'd save me the pain and tell me which airport, recommend a hotel and probably offer to come and pick me up.

Documentation is as much a part of development as coding is. Systems like DoxyGen semi-automate the process, to make it as least-hassle as possible.

I'm beginning to suspect that all this resistance is because all the documentation is in the heads of the developers and not in ANY way written down.

Earlier in this thread you said "ask specific questions". I just did "TCP or UDP" and did I get a straight answer, no. I was basically told to f**k off and work it out for myself. Quite frankly, if that is the attitude of the core devs, then you guys don't deserve any help or additional devs to join the team.

Andrew, you said it wasn't about a "rite of passage". You are wrong. There would only appear to be 5 people on this planet with the neccessary skills to develop for MCE, by the definition of those 5 people! If the only way to gain entry to the inner sanctum is to unpick the source code and not ask questions (the rite of passage) then you will be VERY lucky to find a number 6.

For crying out loud you guys. WHY the resistence to DOCUMENTATION? WHAT are you HIDING? Documentation is NOT spoon-feeding, Thom!

If you spent less time here moaning about what you think we 'dont' have and more time actually working through the system and trying to develop small improvements to it we all might benefit. I'm sorry the documentation is not too your liking...but of course you can personally fix that and show us all what good docs are all about ;-)

All the 'super human' elitist Devs hang out every day on irc in the #linuxmce-devel channel... development related questions are welcome there.

Andrew
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wierdbeard65

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #103 on: June 29, 2009, 12:23:45 am »
I'm sorry the documentation is not too your liking...but of course you can personally fix that and show us all what good docs are all about ;-)

Sorry, but errr, what documentation exactly? An architectural overview and "read the source code". That isn't the way to get more developers, experienced or otherwise, on board. THAT was the point I was making.

Anyhow, Thom has made a reasonable suggestion, and I have made what I consider to be a reasonable response.
Paul
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tschak909

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #104 on: June 29, 2009, 01:19:34 am »
Well um..

You know those little footers at the bottom of each developer page on the wiki?

You know the ones that say Category:Programmers Guide?

If you click on that, you get....

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Category:Programmer%27s_Guide

and while it's not perfect..and some of it isn't completely up to date.. It is relevant.

-Thom