Author Topic: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality  (Read 70475 times)

tkmedia

  • wants to work for LinuxMCE
  • **
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
    • LMCECompatible
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2009, 05:21:14 pm »
A simple google of LinuxMce and dce and even simpler search LinuxMce programmer's guide yields.


http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Category:Programmer%27s_Guide

I think more questions should be specific to that.

I hope everyone considering development has read that.

If you haven't  and you have posted in here as a prospective programmer shame on you.

Take that much initiative


just my 2cents



Tim
My Setup http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User:Tkmedia

For LinuxMce compatible  systems and accessories
http://lmcecompatible.com/

MarcoZan

  • Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
    • View Profile
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2009, 05:48:17 pm »
Peer,

Ok, the numbers I got were from Thom's original posting. But even if everyone did an average of 10 installs, it's still a huge number for 5 people to support.

I didn't say you had written it, I said you were responsible for it.

My other comments stand though. You guys work hard, we know that. You guys feel under-valued, well so would I. BUT you guys (whether you like it or not) don't make it easy for people to join you. There shouldn't be a "rite of passage" for new devs. Even if we assume my 10 average installs, that's still 11200 users, and 5 devs. I simply don't believe that only 1 in 2240 users can become a useful developer.

We're knocking on the door offering help, but you aren't letting us in ;D

Look its not about 'paying your dues' or needing new Devs to do a 'rite of passage'. We need experienced developers who can dig into the code and get up and running under their own steam. That is totally not to say that a new Dev wont get help and assistance from all of us...but we dont have the time to 'train people' to be Devs. We need people who are further down the road than that I'm afraid...its not a criticism of anyone its just a practical fact.

Andrew

Brief consideration:

Like most of the guys around here I don't have the required level of competences in order to be considered helpful.

As it seems that no spoons are allowed, it looks like I have to dive into the code, bang my head by myself, and find my way around.

Assuming that for a guy like Thom (that was starting surely from a competence level much higher than mine) it took a couple of years to study the code and become a full blown LMCE Dev, I think that for me it should be wise to double such timeframe.

So if I start now, maybe in 4 years I will be suitable to LMCE Project needs. Say in 3 years, because I'm an optimistic guy.

If you're fine with this, so this thread can stop right here.

If not (and I guess you're not fine with this), we have to find a compromise.

We all know that the project needs very skilled, experienced, creative, smart developers to jump in exactly like every other huge project on this earth.
Unfortunately this is not happening to LMCE, and considering the estimated time to climb the learning curve it looks like it won't happen soon.

It sounds like anyone that is asking for training is considered too lazy, while the point is that if you let people to learn by themselves they will reach a good skill when probably the project has died already.

So what are we going to do? Wait for a miracle to happen, keep on giving sarcastic answers to anyone that at least shows some good will to be helpful, or try a different approach?

Thx
Marco

tschak909

  • LinuxMCE God
  • ****
  • Posts: 5549
  • DOES work for LinuxMCE.
    • View Profile
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2009, 10:00:26 pm »
Since we're talking about the documentation, can we give some specific examples of documentation where things need improvement?

It would be of benefit to everyone if the problem areas were linked and cited.

The reason I say this is that there is tremendous amounts of documentation already, it's how we the core devs got started.

-Thom

geekyhawkes

  • Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 230
    • View Profile
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2009, 10:25:19 pm »
-Thom

I for one think the newbie documentation is a bit weak. Not kicking anyone, but it is not as logical as it could be for new guys and the wiki contains lots of "out of date" information. 

I think we are at the stage that we can archive most of the wiki and keep the entries that are valid for 810 onwards.  Most of the other linux communities have had to go through a similar process over the past year or so (look at the DVB / V4l wiki at the moment), and are better for it.  Lots of posts are newbie simple questions (of which i have posted my fair share) because the information isnt as obvious as it could be.  As mentioned in the wiki thread I am more than happy to rememdy this side of the documentation and also pull togeather a more newbie friendly install guide.  I also feel a list of supported hardware (even if its just the setups of the big 5 devs then it would be useful).  Clearly we can all contribute to hardware that is working but we need to guard against "plug and play" comments when it turns out you actually have to do quite a lot of work to get the hardware working (my Kworld USB card is a good example under 810!). 

 

qball4

  • Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2009, 10:39:23 pm »
geekyhawkes,

There's a sticky FAQ post that would be a good place for you to start with a new-user wiki page.

To anyone that has shown interest in a particular area: I think we've gotten past the point of discussion and are on the task of getting some work done! For example, I'm already working on new orbiter graphics and putting together a LMCE icon repository. If you want to help document, start making an outline and post it. As more people join in, everyone can flesh it out.

The only thing that is going to impress anyone now that all has been said is action.

:Matt

colinjones

  • Alumni
  • LinuxMCE God
  • *
  • Posts: 3003
    • View Profile
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2009, 03:41:16 am »
Thom

I believe I already suggested some areas. In short....

A break down of exactly what each component of the code does and is responsible for, and how they link together... even a single line for each would be a vast improvement and provide a skeleton for others to expand on... this doesn't exist at all at the moment...

"Media Plugin - responsible for accepting media manipulation commands such as MH Play/Stop, creating stream objects for the house...."
"Xine_Wrapper - an instance for each MD, responsible for receiving media manipulation commands from Media Plugin, and playing media on each MD...."
"DCE Router - DCE protocol routing hub, all DCE devices connect to this device, and use it to relay DCE commands, events, etc to all other DCE devices in the house..."
"AppServer - one instance per MD, responsible for MD volume levels, spawning new DCE devices(?)...."
"MD device - one instance per MD, 'virtual' object acting as a parent object for each MD to which you can relay DCE commands which will be passed on to each child device on that MD...."
etc...

Once we have that, we can then link from each 'device' entry, and detail each .cpp .h etc that are used to implement each device, what each is responsible for and so on. Even relatively simple devices like PSS are composed of _many_ pieces of code, and it is far from clear even from the name of each .cpp exactly what it does....

Whatever we think about people being 'lazy' for wanting this information, and whether that is objectively a fair or true assessment.... if this documentation existed, people _would_ start getting involved. Lets not get hung up on if it is or isn't lazy for people to want this information.. if it existed, people would be doing work on the project.... who cares if they are lazy or not, all we are really interested in is getting hands on the project and if this is the way to do it... then so be it!!

Che

  • Regular Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2009, 05:09:18 am »
Yes, I agree completely. If we are to become an OS success story, we need a product that just works. A massive goal I know, because of the complexity of the thing. But this should be our first major goal. New features can come after that (and let's be honest, that's quite enough as it is).

I am a complete Newb, and am thus only suitable for bitch work, but I'm sure in a product such as LMCE, there's going to be a large call for that.

I'm sure the devs must get bored of hearing this, but OMFGWTFBBQ you lot are good. I mean, Really, REALLY good.

Okay, I propose the following goals, in order of importance:


1. It just works. For everyone, all the time (obviously with exceptions)
2. The UI becomes unified throughout.
3. Plug-ins, and supporting architechture.
4. Updated UI (A little less 2000)

Obviously 4 is a long way off, and it should be. All efforts should go towards 1 for the moment, as I can guarantee we'll have a huge infux of people when that is completed. Who's with me?

tschak909

  • LinuxMCE God
  • ****
  • Posts: 5549
  • DOES work for LinuxMCE.
    • View Profile
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2009, 06:28:52 pm »
Hmm...

How about this?

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Developers_Guide

...tmoore...maybe you need to spend some time in the wiki and read, instead of criticising. It might make your credibility carry more weight.

-Thom

totallymaxed

  • LinuxMCE God
  • ****
  • Posts: 4660
  • Smart Home Consulting
    • View Profile
    • Dianemo - at home with technology
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2009, 07:15:36 pm »
Thom

I believe I already suggested some areas. In short....

A break down of exactly what each component of the code does and is responsible for, and how they link together... even a single line for each would be a vast improvement and provide a skeleton for others to expand on... this doesn't exist at all at the moment...

"Media Plugin - responsible for accepting media manipulation commands such as MH Play/Stop, creating stream objects for the house...."
"Xine_Wrapper - an instance for each MD, responsible for receiving media manipulation commands from Media Plugin, and playing media on each MD...."
"DCE Router - DCE protocol routing hub, all DCE devices connect to this device, and use it to relay DCE commands, events, etc to all other DCE devices in the house..."
"AppServer - one instance per MD, responsible for MD volume levels, spawning new DCE devices(?)...."
"MD device - one instance per MD, 'virtual' object acting as a parent object for each MD to which you can relay DCE commands which will be passed on to each child device on that MD...."
etc...

Once we have that, we can then link from each 'device' entry, and detail each .cpp .h etc that are used to implement each device, what each is responsible for and so on. Even relatively simple devices like PSS are composed of _many_ pieces of code, and it is far from clear even from the name of each .cpp exactly what it does....

Whatever we think about people being 'lazy' for wanting this information, and whether that is objectively a fair or true assessment.... if this documentation existed, people _would_ start getting involved. Lets not get hung up on if it is or isn't lazy for people to want this information.. if it existed, people would be doing work on the project.... who cares if they are lazy or not, all we are really interested in is getting hands on the project and if this is the way to do it... then so be it!!

Colin this information is in plain sight in the Wiki... and has been for ever... see Thom's post above. If people moaning about lack of docs can't even look in the most obvious of places for the information...then it tends to suggest that maybe they should do a little homework before being so 'vocal' in this thread about lack of docs.

Andrew
Andy Herron,
CHT Ltd

For Dianemo/LinuxMCE consulting advice;
@herron on Twitter, totallymaxed+inquiries@gmail.com via email or PM me here.

Get Dianemo-Rpi2 ARM Licenses http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=14026.0

Get RaspSqueeze-CEC or Raspbmc-CEC for Dianemo/LinuxMCE: http://wp.me/P4KgIc-5P

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dianemo-Home-Automation/226019387454465

http://www.dianemo.co.uk

nite_man

  • NEEDS to work for LinuxMCE
  • ***
  • Posts: 1019
  • Want to work with LinuxMCE
    • View Profile
    • Smart Home Blog
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2009, 07:48:24 pm »
I agree with tmoore. It should be good project management to successfully release new versions of LinuxMCE. We should create a development team with some hierarchy, have team leaders (current developers who work with 0810 can/should be them), have clear project management (we have users with such experience). We shouldn't  re-invent the wheel. Let's see how other open source projects are organized - MythTV, KDE, Gnome etc. Otherwise we may loose our project. Because the number of tasks is growing and a few persons physically cannot implement all of them. Personally I'm very appreciated to all who work hardly with 0810. This is a really great job!
Michael Stepanov,
My setup: http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User:Nite_man#New_setup
Russian LinuxMCE community: http://linuxmce.ru

totallymaxed

  • LinuxMCE God
  • ****
  • Posts: 4660
  • Smart Home Consulting
    • View Profile
    • Dianemo - at home with technology
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2009, 08:13:05 pm »
I agree with tmoore. It should be good project management to successfully release new versions of LinuxMCE. We should create a development team with some hierarchy, have team leaders (current developers who work with 0810 can/should be them), have clear project management (we have users with such experience). We shouldn't  re-invent the wheel. Let's see how other open source projects are organized - MythTV, KDE, Gnome etc. Otherwise we may loose our project. Because the number of tasks is growing and a few persons physically cannot implement all of them. Personally I'm very appreciated to all who work hardly with 0810. This is a really great job!

Look...project management is not whats lacking here...believe me. We need real software developers who really can write code - period. Its really simple...What we dont need is some corporate like structure with loads of people 'managing'. If anyone contributing to this thread or reading it can offer those types of skills...then stop posting in this thread and get started.

Andrew
Andy Herron,
CHT Ltd

For Dianemo/LinuxMCE consulting advice;
@herron on Twitter, totallymaxed+inquiries@gmail.com via email or PM me here.

Get Dianemo-Rpi2 ARM Licenses http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=14026.0

Get RaspSqueeze-CEC or Raspbmc-CEC for Dianemo/LinuxMCE: http://wp.me/P4KgIc-5P

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dianemo-Home-Automation/226019387454465

http://www.dianemo.co.uk

nite_man

  • NEEDS to work for LinuxMCE
  • ***
  • Posts: 1019
  • Want to work with LinuxMCE
    • View Profile
    • Smart Home Blog
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2009, 12:46:56 am »
I'm not talking about corporate structure. I just suggest to make things clearer. write code - good. I can write code. But what code I should write? From the tickets? Personally I'm not so creative as Tom or you. It's a good idea to read doc and dig system. But how much time it'll take? One, two, three monthes or more? Instead of that Tom, you, Posde can manage newbie developers and help them to learn system quickly.
Michael Stepanov,
My setup: http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User:Nite_man#New_setup
Russian LinuxMCE community: http://linuxmce.ru

totallymaxed

  • LinuxMCE God
  • ****
  • Posts: 4660
  • Smart Home Consulting
    • View Profile
    • Dianemo - at home with technology
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2009, 02:18:40 am »
I'm not talking about corporate structure. I just suggest to make things clearer. write code - good. I can write code. But what code I should write? From the tickets? Personally I'm not so creative as Tom or you. It's a good idea to read doc and dig system. But how much time it'll take? One, two, three monthes or more? Instead of that Tom, you, Posde can manage newbie developers and help them to learn system quickly.

But thats the point that we have made numerous times here in this thread...we need experienced developers. Your previous posting, that I was responding to, only spoke of 'hierarchy', 'project management' & 'team leaders'. We're dont need more of those things...we need more experienced developers who can work on this code-base. Its simple really project managers dont write code...and to be frank newbie developers are not what we need in the core development team...we need developers who already have the skills required to get upto speed quickly. That is not to say there is no role for the newbie...but the core developers dont have the time to train newbies...newbies will have to dig into the codebase and learn by doing...sure ask questions but dont expect 'one on one' training.

All the best

Andrew
Andy Herron,
CHT Ltd

For Dianemo/LinuxMCE consulting advice;
@herron on Twitter, totallymaxed+inquiries@gmail.com via email or PM me here.

Get Dianemo-Rpi2 ARM Licenses http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=14026.0

Get RaspSqueeze-CEC or Raspbmc-CEC for Dianemo/LinuxMCE: http://wp.me/P4KgIc-5P

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dianemo-Home-Automation/226019387454465

http://www.dianemo.co.uk

Techstyle

  • Addicted
  • *
  • Posts: 674
    • View Profile
    • Techstyle UK Ltd.
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2009, 09:38:04 pm »
You are correct we need experienced Developers and all should be actively spreading the LMCE word and trying to recruit people with such skills.  What would these new developers work on?

What we do have though is a bunch of regular users, regular forum posters that have expressed an interest to help, which I think is good.  It is apparent that the existing devs do not have time to teach these users while they are busy heading towards 0810 release.  That being said these users could help in some areas but what should they work on?

I am an experienced PM managing New Product Development and Off shoring Projects both with global teams.  These projects can need varying levels of Management but all need a focused task driven plan.  For LMCE I would not suggest heavy management or team leaders but I would suggest developing a list of tasks required to get us from where we are today to Production release.  This list of tasks would make it easier for new developers to get involved and for the regular user group to take on the non-programming tasks.  It would also help to give visibility to what was ahead.

Techstyle
(Project Management Professional)

wierdbeard65

  • Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 449
    • View Profile
    • My Quest
Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #74 on: June 28, 2009, 10:42:51 pm »
Hmm...

How about this?

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Developers_Guide


Ok, I'm on to it, so I'm reading and according to section 4:

Quote
The DCERouter process is listening on 3450 port.

Very clear, but.... TCP or UDP? Neither is mentioned. From the talk of connections, I'm assuming TCP, but I don't want to waste time trying to make something work when my basic assumptions are wrong ;)

Also, I see from the CVS download (I haven't downloaded it yet, just browsed it online, so don't flame me!) that DoxyGen is used. Can we get to the documentation produced?

What I'm after is a technical reference guide. A complete reference to all the classes, their methods etc. with a full explanation of what each is for, where and when it is used blah blah blah!  ;D  Is that on the wiki anywhere? If so, PLEASE lead me by the hand and show me how to find it.....

I don't know what others mean when they talk about developer documentation, but I don't think it is helpful to have to unpick source code to work out how it all fits together.
Paul
If you have the time to help, please see where I have got to at: http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User:Wierdbeard65