Author Topic: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality  (Read 37866 times)

tschak909

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2009, 09:53:08 pm »
I'm going to talk to the other devs in #linuxmce-devel.

It may very well be me doing orbiter / media work, and hari handlng home automation  team leads, from first guess, but I can't speak for anybody except myself.

-Thom

geekyhawkes

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2009, 10:00:00 pm »
Thom sounds good.  In an attempt to move us forward i have created the following wiki;

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Community

PLease add you details and lets see who is willing to step up!

tschak909

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2009, 10:11:47 pm »
I've been talking, and the cold hard facts are that we simply do not have enough people willing to step up.

So I guess things continue as they are until we get more self motivated people.

-Thom

wierdbeard65

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2009, 10:18:31 pm »
I've been talking, and the cold hard facts are that we simply do not have enough people willing to step up.

So I guess things continue as they are until we get more self motivated people.

Please define "step up". I, along with several others, have expressed a desire to get involved here. We just need some guidance as to how.

Surely, the investment in writing some guides will pay dividends not only in fewer stupid questions here, but a shared workload?

Or am I missing something here?
Paul
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tmoore

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2009, 10:20:38 pm »
Thom,

If you're looking to recruit more people to do development work, you need to talk to the community, not the existing developers.  There's plenty of people here willing to step up.

How about posting a sticky thread to ask people to submit their interest to the wiki page that geekyhawks just posted?  Let's see how many people we get in 1-2 weeks.  Most people don't have time to check in daily.

Tim

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2009, 10:31:21 pm »
I'm sure we all understand that the core devs have a lot on their plates right now. So I offer an alternative idea: those of us that are interested in stepping up but may not be experts can start the teams. The core devs could do business as usual, but act as advisors of sort to the teams. Since the same questions would probably get asked anyway, no additional work is required from core devs. Actually, the non-experts will probably learn even faster this way.

So, offer yourselves up!

Thom, if you still want to lead Team UI it's all yours. If not, I volunteer.

Let's get a list of teams going:
* User Interface
* Documentation
* Home Automation
* Media
* Website
* Computing Integration? (office suite and the like)

:Matt

tschak909

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2009, 10:54:13 pm »
No, you're not understanding...

We do not have enough TEAM LEADERS to lead teams.... But even more to the point, we do not have enough INDIANS...but PLENTY of people wanting to be CHIEFS (Managers) ....

Sorry, this situation is a wee bit too lopsided. We need a few more self motivated developers.

-Thom

tmoore

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2009, 11:06:07 pm »
Matt,

I agree.

I think we also need a product management team, which would ensure that the other teams are coordinating their efforts and not going off in their own directions.  The product management team would define future strategy of the product, and include a team leader from each of the other teams plus a chair to coordinate meetings and to record and communicate decisions.  I'm happy to volunteer for the chair position.

Also, expand the website team to include all marketing efforts.  This would also include communicating with the press, building a "brand" and ensuring that branding is common across all efforts.

Tim

tmoore

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2009, 11:18:23 pm »
Thom,

I don't think it's possible to reach that conclusion without first having given the community to respond.  This is going to take a few weeks to organize most likely.  We have a wiki page asking for volunteers, and we should post a sticky to get people to respond.  As this is an extraordinary event, perhaps an email to all registered forum users would be in order, too.

As a number of people have pointed out, we will get more developers once there is a management structure in place ("goto" people, as one person posted) and the documentation and support to help them.

Lets get organized first and not jump to the conclusion that no one is willing to help.

Tim

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2009, 11:35:51 pm »
Thom,

I don't think it's possible to reach that conclusion without first having given the community to respond.  This is going to take a few weeks to organize most likely.  We have a wiki page asking for volunteers, and we should post a sticky to get people to respond.  As this is an extraordinary event, perhaps an email to all registered forum users would be in order, too.

As a number of people have pointed out, we will get more developers once there is a management structure in place ("goto" people, as one person posted) and the documentation and support to help them.

Lets get organized first and not jump to the conclusion that no one is willing to help.

Tim

Tim,

The facts are that we dont need more 'management'...'working groups' or any such new 'management structures'... what we need is experienced & motivated developers. We dont have any resource spare to spend months training you guys up to be that new development resource. If we could 'bake' some new developers that easily we'd do it to be frank. The coding needed on this project is not going to happen, with all due respect, by having inexperienced people do the coding. This aint beginners territory I'm afraid.

What we need is people with good existing development skills who want to get involved.

Andrew
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wierdbeard65

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2009, 11:50:45 pm »
The facts are that we dont need more 'management'...'working groups' or any such new 'management structures'... what we need is experienced & motivated developers. We dont have any resource spare to spend months training you guys up to be that new development resource. If we could 'bake' some new developers that easily we'd do it to be frank. The coding needed on this project is not going to happen, with all due respect, by having inexperienced people do the coding. This aint beginners territory I'm afraid.

What we need is people with good existing development skills who want to get involved.

Andrew,

I kind of sit on the fence about management, I reckon both sides are making very good points.

I disagree about developers, though. Firstly, I quoted a post from Thom only two years or so old in which he was asking similar questions that others are now asking. As he said in that post, what a difference a couple of years makes.

Speaking for myself, I had a need to program in Java a couple of years ago. I went from knowing nothing to having a fully developed app (having figured out how to download and install the SDKs etc along the way) in about 2 weeks. I haven't touched Java since, so am rusty! The difference was the easy availability of good quality documentation, online, and free.

The simple fact is, anyone who is experienced in the whole MCE system is already developing for it. There are a lot of experienced developers out there who may well be interested in becoming involved, but who will need explanations of how DCE works, how the database is structured and used etc etc.

I'm not saying the information isn't there, but it sure as hell isn't easy to find.

Added to this, not ALL development is at that kind of level. Some is bound to be mundane, tedious and repetitive. Ideal for someone in the position Thom was in two years ago (I believe it was you mentoring him on that thread!)

All I (and others) ask for is some pointers and to be given a chance. Point me at a clear explanation of how DCE works between devices. Examples of an Orbiter network interface. (For example, when an orbiter starts up, what is the format the UI is sent in?) IS this documented? If so, where? (The correct answer is not "on the wiki") If not, then how on earth can you guys ever expect the developer base to expand? We all have to start somewhere!
Paul
If you have the time to help, please see where I have got to at: http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User:Wierdbeard65

geekyhawkes

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2009, 12:02:11 am »
Still pimping the wiki;

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Community

Please fill it out, at least the few can then make an educated decision as to the way forward.  Currently we have a community with lots of will but the guys in the know need to understand who can do what and when.  The wiki should give them an idea where we stand right now and who they can use to produce which bits!  Please fill it out.

From there we can talk about who is managing which part of what development to get 810 out and then move us all forward!

tmoore

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2009, 12:09:14 am »
Andrew,

So, you want experienced developers, but without LMCE coding experience, to get experienced in LMCE without either training them or providing documentation?  I'm sorry if I'm missing something here, but it seems like you're asking for the impossible which explains why it's not happening.

Or are you expecting experienced developers to just pick everything up themselves and get on with the job with minimal or no assistance?  If so, you're asking too much of unpaid contributors with only a small amount of time to give.  Even if they had the time, it would not be much fun, which defeats the purpose of getting involved.  Again, it explains why it's not happening.  All the experienced developers that I know have demanding jobs, and many of them have young families.

There's only one sure way to get experienced people to commit that much time and effort.  Pay them.  If you insist on that being the right approach, then raise the funds and employ some talent.

You and Thom say that you don't need any more team leaders.  The community is saying that they don't have team leaders to go to in order to contribute.  If there are enough team leaders now, then they are not effectively leading the teams.  It's one or the other.

I know that writing documentation sucks.  So can training new people.  It's what this project needs, however.  How long have "the Devs" been asking in vein for senior developers?  When something isn't working, a change of tack is needed.  And, with the greatest of respect, a lack of ability to see that or do anything about it shows a lack of effective management.

I'm not trying to be argumentative.  This is just how I see it.  I troubleshoot the strategies of IT companies for a living, so this is just my professional opinion - my contribution to the effort (and yes, I know the project is not a company, but most principles still apply)

Tim

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2009, 12:09:43 am »
Tim,

I like the idea of a Product Management Team, but think it should actually incorporate the website, PR, etc. We do not want to add layers of management for management's sake. The PMT would still make sure the other teams are working towards a common set of goals and interface with the core devs but without being a management committee.

Andrew,

You are right about having inexperienced coders, but not all of the teams are code-based:
*Product Management - only coding needed is website
*User Interface - short-term new skin/button layout is HADesigner mostly, long-term new orbiter platforms would require experienced coders but it's just that... long term.
*Documentation - wiki skills, which can be easily learned
*Media, HA, and CI, well... you're right about those :)

We can at least get started with the parts that do not require "baked" devs. The success of LinuxMCE may depend mostly on experienced coders, but there is definitely less important work that still needs to be done. It seems to me that we already have at least three people interested in such less important work. In fact, having more organized documentation, an updated (or at least alternative) look, and some PR exposure might attract the experts the project *really* needs.

:Matt

tmoore

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Re: Letter to the Community: LinuxMCE 0810 - The Cold Honest Reality
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2009, 12:19:04 am »
Matt,

Works for me.

Tim