Author Topic: Myth / VDR comparison.  (Read 2146 times)

wierdbeard65

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Myth / VDR comparison.
« on: June 11, 2009, 03:45:08 pm »
Hi,

I keep seeing various comments about both VDR and Myth but haven't (yet) found a feature comparison between the two.

General wisdom seems to be that VDR is preferable here in the UK as it works better with DVB. In what way is it better? What does it provide that Myth doesn't? What would I lose?

Also, can we use plugins with Myth and / or VDR. For example, if I was using Myth, I'd be interested in installing the TVWish, MythExport and MythVodka. Can I do this with MCE? Are there similar plugins for VDR?

What I'd really like to see is a feature comparison grid on the wiki. This would aid me (and, presumably others) in making an informed decision on which to use. Similarly, what features of Myth and VDR are not implimented in MCE? Again, it may well be preferable for some people to use those systems instead of MCE in certain situations.

So, can anyone point me at any documentation of this nature?

Thanks!
Paul
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totallymaxed

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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2009, 04:07:08 pm »
Hi,

I keep seeing various comments about both VDR and Myth but haven't (yet) found a feature comparison between the two.

General wisdom seems to be that VDR is preferable here in the UK as it works better with DVB. In what way is it better? What does it provide that Myth doesn't? What would I lose?

Also, can we use plugins with Myth and / or VDR. For example, if I was using Myth, I'd be interested in installing the TVWish, MythExport and MythVodka. Can I do this with MCE? Are there similar plugins for VDR?

What I'd really like to see is a feature comparison grid on the wiki. This would aid me (and, presumably others) in making an informed decision on which to use. Similarly, what features of Myth and VDR are not implimented in MCE? Again, it may well be preferable for some people to use those systems instead of MCE in certain situations.

So, can anyone point me at any documentation of this nature?

Thanks!

Hmmm... I cant think of any such comparisons on the Wiki. I know that I have made adhoc comparisons in the past in the Forums...so search here would be a start. Of course one great thing about this project is that if you cant find the information you need here or on the Wiki then you can go and correct that problem yourself and therefore start to make a very valuable contribution in your own right!

Andrew
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wierdbeard65

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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2009, 04:14:04 pm »
Indeed, and I'm happy to do so BUT what I don't want to do is spend time re-inventing the wheel! If this information is already there (either somewhere on the MCE wiki, somewhere on another site or even in an easily downloadable form from someone's head ;) ) then I'd rather not spend hours putting one together!
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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2009, 05:04:27 pm »
Indeed, and I'm happy to do so BUT what I don't want to do is spend time re-inventing the wheel! If this information is already there (either somewhere on the MCE wiki, somewhere on another site or even in an easily downloadable form from someone's head ;) ) then I'd rather not spend hours putting one together!

So if you've searched here...and on the Wiki...and not found anything then I guess that means there's a gap to be filled ;-)

Andrew
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wierdbeard65

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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2009, 05:09:39 pm »
So if you've searched here...and on the Wiki...and not found anything then I guess that means there's a gap to be filled ;-)

Ahhh, but the last time I checked, Google wasn't able to index people's brains! Maybe it's a new feature that you've encountered?

Something like www.google.com/Andrew???

Seriously, for me to go out and piece together the information is probably several hours' work. I'm happy to do that, but if there is someone else who has the information to hand and could rattle it off in a few minutes, it seems that I would be a bit stupid to do this!

I'll start trawling the threads and the web and try to put together a page. Perhaps if I get a skeleton, others would add to it ;D
Paul
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tschak909

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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2009, 11:59:00 pm »
hmm, instead of trying to duct tape on MythTV plugins, MAYBE a few of us developers could get together and actually make Orbiter screens for this stuff that's provided by the plugins so it could actually be DISTRIBUTED across the whole smart home!

damn it fellas,

Where are the developers?
Where are the coders?
Where are the hackers?

Are you all really just a bunch of users?

For all the time wasted duct taping things on, that time could be better spent actually integrating this stuff into the system correctly!

If you just want mythtv, go use something else, that's not why I am here. This is a smart home, and the UI is supposed to be distributed house wide, and if you're using a VDR or MythTV plugin, guess what? that's not house wide!

I'm getting tired getting down on my knees begging for help, because me, Hari, Uplink, and Possy can't do it all.. Jondecker76 has a life, with a wife and many kids....

I know more than a few of you are developers in here that use this software. PLEASE STEP UP AND HELP!!!!

-Thom

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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2009, 01:01:50 am »
hmm, instead of trying to duct tape on MythTV plugins, MAYBE a few of us developers could get together and actually make Orbiter screens for this stuff that's provided by the plugins so it could actually be DISTRIBUTED across the whole smart home!

damn it fellas,

Where are the developers?
Where are the coders?
Where are the hackers?

Are you all really just a bunch of users?

For all the time wasted duct taping things on, that time could be better spent actually integrating this stuff into the system correctly!

If you just want mythtv, go use something else, that's not why I am here. This is a smart home, and the UI is supposed to be distributed house wide, and if you're using a VDR or MythTV plugin, guess what? that's not house wide!

I'm getting tired getting down on my knees begging for help, because me, Hari, Uplink, and Possy can't do it all.. Jondecker76 has a life, with a wife and many kids....

I know more than a few of you are developers in here that use this software. PLEASE STEP UP AND HELP!!!!

-Thom



wheee  i think his whole point was finding documentation on what things are supported in both mythtv and vdr..   

not everyone has the time to invest to get to the point where they can be heavy into development..  wife..kids...work...

totallymaxed

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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2009, 06:03:02 pm »
hmm, instead of trying to duct tape on MythTV plugins, MAYBE a few of us developers could get together and actually make Orbiter screens for this stuff that's provided by the plugins so it could actually be DISTRIBUTED across the whole smart home!

damn it fellas,

Where are the developers?
Where are the coders?
Where are the hackers?

Are you all really just a bunch of users?

For all the time wasted duct taping things on, that time could be better spent actually integrating this stuff into the system correctly!

If you just want mythtv, go use something else, that's not why I am here. This is a smart home, and the UI is supposed to be distributed house wide, and if you're using a VDR or MythTV plugin, guess what? that's not house wide!

I'm getting tired getting down on my knees begging for help, because me, Hari, Uplink, and Possy can't do it all.. Jondecker76 has a life, with a wife and many kids....

I know more than a few of you are developers in here that use this software. PLEASE STEP UP AND HELP!!!!

-Thom


Hmmm...Thom you've misunderstood what this thread is about. wierdbeard65 wanted a comparison between what MythTV & vdr can deliver as standard...he was not asking for more plugins as far as I know. I was encouraging him to go do that comparison...

We need more developers I agree... but ranting at people here is not at all constructive...and just turns people off to be frank. I dont agree with you about adding plugins to either vdr or MythTV... You just cant expect people to hold off wanting extra plugins. If you want a unified UI across the whol LinuxMCE system then lets focus on making that possible for MythTV & vdr irrespective of what the plugin mix happens to be...but that discussion is for another thread in the Developers area ;-)

Andrew
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wierdbeard65

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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2009, 11:20:54 pm »
Thanks for leaping to my defense, Andrew! You are correct, although I accept Thom has a point.

The reason for my posting is that it would seem to me that the choice of PVR software is quite a fundamental one with possibly far-reaching consequences. It isn't simply a case of visiting the relevant projects websites to glean the different features, since not all of them are necessarily supported by MCE, and some will be enhanced! I really don't have the time (or inclination) to install each in turn, play with it etc before making a choice - apart from anything else, I have WAF to consider!

Thom, I don't fully understand your comments about plugins being distributed across the whole smart home. I accept that some plugins could well be seen as duplicating functionality found in MCE (at least dome of the ones for Myth!), but others relate ONLY to the PVR element of the software. For example, I'm very interested in a Myth plugin called TVWish, which allows you to supply a list of TV shows and / or films you would like to record should they ever appear on the schedules. I really don't see how this relates to non PVR elements of MCE, like telephony or security! The fact is that some very talented developers are enhancing all of the software that forms part of MCE. If we can add these enhancements to the MCE version as well, then we can make use of their efforts.

So, my information quest continues. Two basic questions that I need to answer one way or another:-

1) What are the benefits of Myth Vs VDR. What are the drawbacks of each?
2) Which (if any) plugins for each are known to work with the MCE implimentation, and which are known to break it?

Thanks, one and all :)
Paul
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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2009, 01:16:38 am »
What i was saying is, the UI is fully distributed, able to be used on virtually every display surface in the house.

For example, once i do my exposition of MythTV data, i'll be able to expose a full EPG, and scheduler to the Orbiter, so you could use your cell phone to schedule TV shows, for example.

-Thom

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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2009, 06:08:32 am »
Myth works with ATSC and DVB, but also analogue sources. VDR only works with DVB (currently) - if you only intend to use DVB, then this isn't relevent, as both do the job.

Myth is more feature-full out of the box, VDR is pretty "thin" although there are plenty of plugins to extend it.

VDR is far better integrated with LMCE than Myth. When using Myth it is pretty obvious that you are entering completely different software when you choose TV. VDR looks almost seemless - the only real give away is the OSD, which is slowly being reduced and should be phased out completely in favour of LMCE menus in due course.

VDR specifically targets DVB and so natively uses its features, like OTA EPG, etc, and will allow for seemless integration of multiple DVB-T/C/S tuners in one system with a combined interface.

wierdbeard65

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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2009, 10:31:38 am »
What i was saying is, the UI is fully distributed, able to be used on virtually every display surface in the house.

For example, once i do my exposition of MythTV data, i'll be able to expose a full EPG, and scheduler to the Orbiter, so you could use your cell phone to schedule TV shows, for example.

I fully agree with you on this one. I noticed an article on the wiki about using MythWeb, which seems to me to be counter-MCE as it means you end up with two Web interfaces to play with. Certainly, I (personally) wouldn't want to be adding any plugins that had a UI that I couldn't fully integrate (once I've learned how). TVWish (which I mention coz it looks SO cool) is based (I think) on a file. I guess it's about "back end" functionality-adding plugins, verses front-end interface plugins.

Is there a data dictionary anywhere for the MCE database? I couldn't find one on the Wiki, but then maybe I wasn't looking hard enough ;) It seems to me from what I've read that understanding the database is key to understanding MCE and adding functionality.

Myth works with ATSC and DVB, but also analogue sources. VDR only works with DVB (currently) - if you only intend to use DVB, then this isn't relevent, as both do the job.

Myth is more feature-full out of the box, VDR is pretty "thin" although there are plenty of plugins to extend it.

VDR is far better integrated with LinuxMCE than Myth. When using Myth it is pretty obvious that you are entering completely different software when you choose TV. VDR looks almost seemless - the only real give away is the OSD, which is slowly being reduced and should be phased out completely in favour of LinuxMCE menus in due course.

VDR specifically targets DVB and so natively uses its features, like OTA EPG, etc, and will allow for seemless integration of multiple DVB-T/C/S tuners in one system with a combined interface.

I see, this leads me to a real dilemma! It looks like I'm going to have to do the one thing I was trying to avoid and actually try them both :(

I want to end up with a single integrated system (so VDR) BUT I will be starting with a sky STB with an analog capture card (so Myth?). I will be adding some DVB-S cards later (either) but will have to keep the STB for the Sky encrypted channels. Adding in my desire for a couple of plugins (which I haven't fully researched for VDR yet) and it looks like I will have to forgo the full integration for the time being - although I'm sure that folks are working hard to tie them together. We as a family also have a couple of iPod Touches and iPhones which we want to use (hence my support for the concept of an iOrbiter). There are plugins for Myth which transcode media for the iPhone/Touch and publish these as an RSS feed which iTunes can pick up. Are there similar facilities available for VDR?

I did (briefly) consider going Mythbuntu initially, as I'm not interested in telephony, HA, Security etc. (at first) but having to give up the whole Orbiter concept, not to mention using a WiiMote as a gyro-mouse is just too painful :D

Only real question relates to recorded (off air) material. Does this show up in the media library alongside ripped media or do I have to browse that separately?

Of course, if anyone can explain to me / point me at a Wiki page that explains how to get VDR to work in this configuration - I'm all ears! I know Andrew has already indicated that my analog card with VDR will struggle with EPG data and has pointed me at a couple of resources concerning that, but has anyone actually managed it?

I am well aware of, and very grateful for, the work the devs put in on this project. I can also fully understand Thom's (and other's) frustrations with people jumping in and asking questions about hacking the system away from it's intended development course. I just wish I had more development skills to join you guys and help out - sadly I'm a little long in the tooth to start learning a completely new (and complex) development environment without an "idiot's guide to MCE development". I will spend some time reading the development guides however and if I am able to contribute, I most certainly will .
Paul
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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2009, 10:34:07 am »
What i was saying is, the UI is fully distributed, able to be used on virtually every display surface in the house.

For example, once i do my exposition of MythTV data, i'll be able to expose a full EPG, and scheduler to the Orbiter, so you could use your cell phone to schedule TV shows, for example.

-Thom

I know that I for one agree with that aspiration...and I would guess most others do to. However wierdbeard65  was not asking for 'Duct Tape' or any watering down of an all pervasive UI vision...he simply wanted a way to decide whether MythTV or vdr was the best choice for him. I wanted to encourage him to explore that and document it here and in the wiki.

Colin has kicked of that above now so wierdbeard65 you have not excuse now not to go and fill in any remaining 'blanks' and report back with your findings ;-)

all the best

Andrew

ps I am in the 'pro' vdr camp...so I did not feel it was a good idea for me to make the comparison...and it would be good for wierdbeard65 ;-)
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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2009, 10:55:07 am »
What i was saying is, the UI is fully distributed, able to be used on virtually every display surface in the house.

For example, once i do my exposition of MythTV data, i'll be able to expose a full EPG, and scheduler to the Orbiter, so you could use your cell phone to schedule TV shows, for example.

I fully agree with you on this one. I noticed an article on the wiki about using MythWeb, which seems to me to be counter-MCE as it means you end up with two Web interfaces to play with. Certainly, I (personally) wouldn't want to be adding any plugins that had a UI that I couldn't fully integrate (once I've learned how). TVWish (which I mention coz it looks SO cool) is based (I think) on a file. I guess it's about "back end" functionality-adding plugins, verses front-end interface plugins.

Is there a data dictionary anywhere for the MCE database? I couldn't find one on the Wiki, but then maybe I wasn't looking hard enough ;) It seems to me from what I've read that understanding the database is key to understanding MCE and adding functionality.

Myth works with ATSC and DVB, but also analogue sources. VDR only works with DVB (currently) - if you only intend to use DVB, then this isn't relevent, as both do the job.

Myth is more feature-full out of the box, VDR is pretty "thin" although there are plenty of plugins to extend it.

VDR is far better integrated with LinuxMCE than Myth. When using Myth it is pretty obvious that you are entering completely different software when you choose TV. VDR looks almost seemless - the only real give away is the OSD, which is slowly being reduced and should be phased out completely in favour of LinuxMCE menus in due course.

VDR specifically targets DVB and so natively uses its features, like OTA EPG, etc, and will allow for seemless integration of multiple DVB-T/C/S tuners in one system with a combined interface.

I see, this leads me to a real dilemma! It looks like I'm going to have to do the one thing I was trying to avoid and actually try them both :(

I want to end up with a single integrated system (so VDR) BUT I will be starting with a sky STB with an analog capture card (so Myth?). I will be adding some DVB-S cards later (either) but will have to keep the STB for the Sky encrypted channels. Adding in my desire for a couple of plugins (which I haven't fully researched for VDR yet) and it looks like I will have to forgo the full integration for the time being - although I'm sure that folks are working hard to tie them together. We as a family also have a couple of iPod Touches and iPhones which we want to use (hence my support for the concept of an iOrbiter). There are plugins for Myth which transcode media for the iPhone/Touch and publish these as an RSS feed which iTunes can pick up. Are there similar facilities available for VDR?

I did (briefly) consider going Mythbuntu initially, as I'm not interested in telephony, HA, Security etc. (at first) but having to give up the whole Orbiter concept, not to mention using a WiiMote as a gyro-mouse is just too painful :D

Only real question relates to recorded (off air) material. Does this show up in the media library alongside ripped media or do I have to browse that separately?

Of course, if anyone can explain to me / point me at a Wiki page that explains how to get VDR to work in this configuration - I'm all ears! I know Andrew has already indicated that my analog card with VDR will struggle with EPG data and has pointed me at a couple of resources concerning that, but has anyone actually managed it?

I am well aware of, and very grateful for, the work the devs put in on this project. I can also fully understand Thom's (and other's) frustrations with people jumping in and asking questions about hacking the system away from it's intended development course. I just wish I had more development skills to join you guys and help out - sadly I'm a little long in the tooth to start learning a completely new (and complex) development environment without an "idiot's guide to MCE development". I will spend some time reading the development guides however and if I am able to contribute, I most certainly will .

Well on the Sky side of things...I would suggest that, in 0810 at least, vdr is better suited as we have provided our Sky integration code that allows for either non streamed (ie control of Sky but video is send via a video matrix or switcher) and streamed versions (using a capture card). The lag is just there irrespective of which you use. The EPG data issue has nothing to do with the capture card at all... but all to do with the need to integrate a source fo Sky EPG data.

Andrew
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wierdbeard65

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Re: Myth / VDR comparison.
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2009, 11:08:33 am »
Well on the Sky side of things...I would suggest that, in 0810 at least, vdr is better suited as we have provided our Sky integration code that allows for either non streamed (ie control of Sky but video is send via a video matrix or switcher) and streamed versions (using a capture card). The lag is just there irrespective of which you use. The EPG data issue has nothing to do with the capture card at all... but all to do with the need to integrate a source fo Sky EPG data.

Thanks (again!) Andrew,

Is the Sky integration code there in the current 8.10 download? I'm planning on having a play this weekend and was going to try 7.10 as I have old equipment, so felt stability would win the day, but if 8.10 can do the job better ;-)

I must've mis-understood the whole discussion about VDR and EPG. I thought it was saying that VDR required a DVB card to obtain the EPG data and anything else would be a hack. If I can obtain the data via the 'net in some way, then I'm happy :) I know you've provided links in the past for this, so I'll investigate.

I understand what you are saying about lag, but I'm not hoping to be able to reproduce a "channel hopping" experience for the family. Very little of what we watch actually has to be watched live and, in fact, the ability to record it all and watch at a convenient time is a distinct advantage! Anyone who actually NEEDS to channel hop (=teenage son) will have to wait until nobody else is using the system and sit in the lounge with the STB and a direct connection to the TV  ;D

So, looks like the pendulum is swinging back in favour of VDR. Can anyone tell me how scheduled recording information is stored? I may have a go at hacking my own plugins for my much-desired TVWish function!
Paul
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