Author Topic: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"  (Read 4317 times)

unsolicited

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2009, 06:48:23 pm »
Problem 2: Who is your customer?
you are aware that LinuxMCE is free? Which customers are you talking about?

best regards,
Hari

I'll rephrase: For whom are you developing for? What is the nature of your customer?

It includes, at least, black box lmce implementers (DVD?), and others, with presumably various levels of expertise (CD?).

Define your consumer. What levels of expertise. What is expected to be in place beforehand? What other criteria of user are you assuming? (No chicken-and-egg please, where you have to entirely grok lmce before you're allowed to try or use lmce.)

Who and what are your target audience of users?
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unsolicited

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2009, 06:57:59 pm »
... Hey, he does not even know which features the devs _must_ implement for him, just let it be "ubber".

br, Hari


I have not asked for anything other than information, particularly if anyone knows of any good links.

All I have asked is: What all goes in to a gateway / router / central network service machine in a home network. I've suggested such would include, at least, firewall, dhcp, ntp, asterisk, proxy, something for IM, and so on and so forth. I've asked what people might list on their checklist of such items.

I've asked for people's thoughts and opinions. I haven't asked for features. I posted in developers as it seemed reasonable to get the opinions of those who would be able to list "what's already in there", first.

Call it ubber, or whatever you like. I've merely asked, in a perfect world, what might be on such a machine. Let's stop getting hung up on definitions, and move on to intent.
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posde

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2009, 06:59:05 pm »
I'll rephrase: For whom are you developing for? What is the nature of your customer?

I am developing for MYSELF. And I hope, other people like what I develop. And if someone has some things they like, I think about these things. And if I can, I implement them, if I feel like it. That's the nature of unpaid open source software. I am spending most of my waking hours for LMCE in one way or another. I do it, because I love doing it. Not because I need to feed a market, or have something for a customer.

dlewis

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2009, 09:38:23 pm »
We have people that are new and people that are seasoned... Either way, I think we're all on the same page...

colinjones

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2009, 01:10:11 am »
Firstly, Hari was correct - this is nothing to do with development, it is a Feature Request/Roadmap topic and has been moved there, as appropriate.

Unsolicited - several points...

On your initial question - I see no reason why everybody would not want the LMCE core to perform many of the services you list, with the level of sophistication that you desire. But the practical fact is, at this point these functions are well down the priority list. There isn't anywhere like the person-power needed to address every point on that list, and so prioritisation is needed, and you will be happy to know that there are movements in progress to make that process more formal, and a "shared vision". True, that doesn't mean your points are any closer to being addressed, however it should at least give you comfort that there will be some structure around the process in future to ensure that they don't get lost indefinitely.

You need to be careful about using terms like "Customer" or discussing things in a way that assumes that the product and its developers are here to address desires, requirements or needs of some notional paying client. I'm sure you don't need to be reminded that nobody pays anything to the developers, it is for their own satisfaction and altruism that they do it, and understandably get irritable when someone starts telling them what their customer wants. This may not have been your intent, but as an independant third party (I am neither you, nor a dev!) I can assure you that is how the tone of your posts came across.

Weirdbeard -

I understand your concern, at the same time, the objective of the ops is "moderation" not "lobotomisation"! We need to take the heat out of discussion, not act like nannies. People are allowed to disagree and object, it is only when it gets into pointless, topic-less, aggressive and offensive slanging matches that it needs to be stopped. There are also the issues of "written tone" and language. One sentence can be written with one intent, but by changing the emphasis, can be read in several different ways - sarcastic, helpful, derisory, chiding, etc. Don't always assume that it was intended how you read it... that is a limitation of written language, not the writer or reader. Also, particular words chosen are often affected by the writer's first-language and even culture. Even though (with a certain generosity of spirit!) the guys in the US and myself in Australia, both speak the same first-language, that doesn't mean we always use the same words and phrases to express the same concept. Throw a whole range of European languages and others into the mix, and you should expect that there will be misunderstandings...

With that all in mind, my subjective reading of the comments - it was clear to me that Hari was directing Unsolicited appropriately. You are being unnecessarily sensitive, and reacting to "tone" that isn't there. Read the previous paragraph again with this in mind.

All - the technical definition of a "Gateway" is not relevant to this thread. It is functionality that Unsolicited is referring to. If you want to discuss the definition, start another thread (and then I will make the comment that none of VoIP, ISDN and CIFS are layer 7 protocols or anything close :) )

unsolicited

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2009, 04:14:10 am »
I'll rephrase: For whom are you developing for? What is the nature of your customer?

I am developing for MYSELF. And I hope, other people like what I develop. And if someone has some things they like, I think about these things. And if I can, I implement them, if I feel like it. That's the nature of unpaid open source software. I am spending most of my waking hours for LinuxMCE in one way or another. I do it, because I love doing it. Not because I need to feed a market, or have something for a customer.

DOH! You're right, of course, and well put.

So, first, for you, all I was asking was ... what checklist (?) of 'things' are / were / would be in there or of concern to you?

Second, given that you have posted your code, to share with a like-minded and interested group, re-apply that last paragraph, changing 'you' to 'the group'.

Also, everyone please change the word 'consumer' (or like words) in anything you've read, to 'end user.'

All I asked for was ... anyone have a list, or know of one?
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unsolicited

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2009, 04:58:34 am »
Firstly, Hari was correct - ..

Thank you for this most excellent post.

... On your initial question - I see no reason why everybody would not want the LinuxMCE core to perform many of the services you list, with the level of sophistication that you desire. But the practical fact is, at this point these functions are well down the priority list. There isn't anywhere like the person-power needed to address every point on that list, and so prioritisation is needed, and you will be happy to know that there are movements in progress to make that process more formal, and a "shared vision". True, that doesn't mean your points are any closer to being addressed, however it should at least give you comfort that there will be some structure around the process in future to ensure that they don't get lost indefinitely.

I take your point, but I say again, I have asked for nothing but if someone knows of a useful link (to a checklist sort of network services list) could they please post. And, with or without such links, if people had such a list, what might be on it.

I have not asked for development, or usage, or anything other than "Shall we make a list?"

You do make a good point - if we can come up with a list, ranking them would seem appropriate.

You need to be careful about using terms like "Customer" or discussing things in a way that assumes that the product and its developers are here to address desires, requirements or needs of some notional paying client ...

I hear you. A reasonably common phrase is "Who's your customer?" As you point out, people can read that poorly if they choose.

Please, wherever customer has been used, replace it with 'end user'.

As in, you probably have, in your mind's eye, a sense of whom you might give or suggest lmce to, or who you might like to. Be that person Linux guru or newbie. And I ask, if I remember correctly, because the intended target audience would impact the nature of the list. So, for example, if the target audience were the Linux guru you would expect / require them to deal with any anti-virus issues they might have on their own. If the target audience is a black box rank newbie, they you might reasonably expect to have in place an anti-virus solution. Note - I did not ask if it was, is, or will be, present in lmce. Merely, if we had such a list, what would be on it.

... One sentence can be written with one intent, but by changing the emphasis, can be read in several different ways - sarcastic, helpful, derisory, chiding, etc. Don't always assume that it was intended how you read it...

In some cases, the pointless non-productive sarcasm  spans many posts and are not one-off accidents of typing. More like "Boy, you are some STUPID for asking THAT question."

With that all in mind, my subjective reading of the comments - it was clear to me that Hari was directing Unsolicited appropriately. You are being unnecessarily sensitive, and reacting to "tone" that isn't there. Read the previous paragraph again with this in mind.

I cannot disagree that the direction was appropriate, but the truth of the message became lost in the abrasiveness of the delivery. There are assumptions that I even knew that threads could be moved (never come across that before), that 'feature requests' includes 'roadmap', and that I knew my target audience, developers (which includes more than coders), would be present. Let alone how.

I cannot agree that the sensitivity isn't warranted. The tone is clearly there.



Can we please get back to the original intent of the question posed:

"What's a gateway?" (What all is it composed of?)

I haven't come across any good links as to "What's a gateway?" / "What all a gateway does?"

- a simple checklist would be a good start, e.g. It has this and this and that and that.

Anyone with any good links / references / etc.?

And add ... links or not, shall we make such a checklist?

[It's just a checklist, a discussion, people, nothing more. Full stop.]
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colinjones

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2009, 05:05:16 pm »
Quote
Can we please get back to the original intent of the question posed:

I think you will see from my comment that I am keen for us to get back to your topic.

Quote
In some cases, the pointless non-productive sarcasm  spans many posts and are not one-off accidents of typing. More like "Boy, you are some STUPID for asking THAT question."

Agreed, but I cannot moderate within a single thread, on issues across multiple threads. That would make no sense within the thread. But you can rest assured, if there is an ongoing pattern, I do address it "off line".

Quote
I cannot agree that the sensitivity isn't warranted. The tone is clearly there.

On tone, that is your assessment, to which you are entitled. I have made my assessment and I do not agree on this point. My objective is to apply consistent standards, and this is in line with that. I didn't say that sensitivity isn't warranted, just that we need to avoid being "unnecessarily sensitive". Particularly when there are language/culture/medium issues involved... I would ask you (again) to step out of your "comfort zone" and recognise that we are dealing with a global community and all that this entails. I am not going to get involved in vivisection of grammar or phrasing except to ask once again for recognition that the initial redirection to another 'board' should be seen in the light of the potential misunderstandings that come from contrasts in language, culture and medium. I feel that I should not need to be any more explicit on this in a public forum.

donpaul

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2009, 01:56:42 am »
Problem 2: Who is your customer?
you are aware that LinuxMCE is free? Which customers are you talking about?

best regards,
Hari

Yes, LinuxMCE is free, we all read that several time throughout the forum. And yes, because of that we all have to take sarcasm and rude comments when we ask for help or make suggestions, I get that to a point. But I assure you that there ARE customers on these forums who have PAID for their LinuxMCE implementation by a company who sells the solution licensed by Pluto.

Just because LinuxMCE can be downloaded free, don't be so quick to assume that there are no customers - that is foolish and damaging to people who make a living selling and/or supporting LinuxMCE.

dlewis

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2009, 01:59:19 am »
I think we all understand our points and are all good with our opinions... No harm, no foul...

wierdbeard65

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2009, 12:42:50 pm »
I seem to have been guilty of the very crime I am accusing others of, namely having my intended meanings mis-interpreted! I know it's off-topic, but I don't want to start another thread and miss the links. So may I offer my apologies. I will shup up after this posting.

Language is difficult and not all my comments related directly to this thread. You are quite correct, ColinJones when you say
Quote
the objective of the ops is "moderation" not "lobotomisation"!
Sadly, some are too quick to perform the latter.

I have re-read this thread a few times. I cannot see how an entire posting that reads
Quote
and this is related to lmce development in which exact manner?
can be taken as anything other than a sarcastic comment. It certainly doesn't re-direct the OP to the correct forum. We all get tired and fed up from time to time, however, and I guess this is one of those occasions.

Ok, shutting up now  ;)
Paul
If you have the time to help, please see where I have got to at: http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User:Wierdbeard65

hari

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2009, 01:12:36 pm »
I have re-read this thread a few times. I cannot see how an entire posting that reads
Quote
and this is related to lmce development in which exact manner?
can be taken as anything other than a sarcastic comment. It certainly doesn't re-direct the OP to the correct forum. We all get tired and fed up from time to time, however, and I guess this is one of those occasions.
Go read that thread again, you seem to have missed some bits. You have to read that posting in context. Also look at my other posts (like the first reply from my side). The reply to my Q lead us to the fact that the original poster has no intention to code this himself. And he even stated in the first post that this is not even LinuxMCE related. So my Q was not sarcastic but helped to clarify that this belongs into feature requests and not the developer forum. Please also note this post from Zaerc: http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=7212.0

Quote
Ok, shutting up now  ;)
a bit late as you don't really contribute to this thread in a positive way. Your first reply was wrong ignoring the context of definitions, and now you are trolling and misinterpreting my posts consciously.

To stay on topic, does anybody request any "gateway" features? Let's discuss possible options.

br, Hari
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Zaerc

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2009, 03:10:31 pm »
Well, since we can't seem to stop beating a dead horse, I would like to clear this misconception up a bit.

Problem 2: Who is your customer?
you are aware that LinuxMCE is free? Which customers are you talking about?

best regards,
Hari

Yes, LinuxMCE is free, we all read that several time throughout the forum. And yes, because of that we all have to take sarcasm and rude comments when we ask for help or make suggestions, I get that to a point. But I assure you that there ARE customers on these forums who have PAID for their LinuxMCE implementation by a company who sells the solution licensed by Pluto.

Just because LinuxMCE can be downloaded free, don't be so quick to assume that there are no customers - that is foolish and damaging to people who make a living selling and/or supporting LinuxMCE.

Just because some people or companies are selling LMCE (bundled with hardware) does not mean we have customers.  This community of volunteers is not here to make other people money, who then in turn can't be bothered to provide proper support for their own paying customers themselves, and it would be really foolish to expect otherwise. 

So as far as we're concerned there are no customers here as we don't sell a "product".  Now if you have a problem with that I'd like to suggest that you take it up with whoever took your money and sold you LMCE.
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colinjones

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Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2009, 12:16:59 am »
Agreed Zaerc! But sorry, I'm going to beat that horse again :)

Hari - stop it now please!

I'm going to contradict myself now, and disect grammar a little... while the comment may have been satirical, ironic or sardonic, it was not sarcastic .... sarcasm is when you specifically say the opposite of what you mean, for emphasis, and is the lowest form of humour.

Now this thread has seriously gone off topic (with my assistance!), and isn't adding value in any meaningful way... locking.