Author Topic: Micasaverde did scenarios/events handling become usefull and easy to operate...  (Read 3219 times)

bulek

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Hi,

I could swear I've read thread about Micasaverde product Vera, but now cannot find thread anymore to post this... Anyone knows what happened?

I've tried demo web interface and also scenarios and events handling capabilities...
All I wanted to say is that handling scenarios and event handlers looks really usefull and is exactly something we're after...

Will that change get into code tree ?

Thanks in advance,

Bulek.

Thanks in advance,

regards,

Bulek.

totallymaxed

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Hi,

I could swear I've read thread about Micasaverde product Vera, but now cannot find thread anymore to post this... Anyone knows what happened?

I've tried demo web interface and also scenarios and events handling capabilities...
All I wanted to say is that handling scenarios and event handlers looks really usefull and is exactly something we're after...

Will that change get into code tree ?

Thanks in advance,

Bulek.



Hi Bulek,

The Micasaverde codebase is really pretty much a re-write for the hardware they are targeting. Also much of the code is closed source. Therefore I cant seen any way that any of its code will be available in LinuxMCE.

However it maybe that some of the approaches taken to simplify some aspects of configuration/setup might be emulated in LinuxMCE.

All the best

Andrew
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Zaerc

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...
I could swear I've read thread about Micasaverde product Vera, but now cannot find thread anymore to post this... Anyone knows what happened?
...

As far as I know, that thread was removed because of the negative reactions from people who were upset at a new commercial product being presented while we are still trying to recover from the damage that was done to linuxmce's codebase in order to create it. 
"Change is inevitable. Progress is optional."
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bulek

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Hi,

I could swear I've read thread about Micasaverde product Vera, but now cannot find thread anymore to post this... Anyone knows what happened?

I've tried demo web interface and also scenarios and events handling capabilities...
All I wanted to say is that handling scenarios and event handlers looks really usefull and is exactly something we're after...

Will that change get into code tree ?

Thanks in advance,

Bulek.



Hi Bulek,

The Micasaverde codebase is really pretty much a re-write for the hardware they are targeting. Also much of the code is closed source. Therefore I cant seen any way that any of its code will be available in LinuxMCE.

However it maybe that some of the approaches taken to simplify some aspects of configuration/setup might be emulated in LinuxMCE.

All the best

Andrew

Hi,

thanks for info... I guess that they changed mostly the highest level of web interface for dealing with events and probably they didn't change event handling engine.... Got any info if web-admin look like part code will be exposed to public ?

Thanks in advance,

regards,

Bulek.
Thanks in advance,

regards,

Bulek.

totallymaxed

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Hi,

I could swear I've read thread about Micasaverde product Vera, but now cannot find thread anymore to post this... Anyone knows what happened?

I've tried demo web interface and also scenarios and events handling capabilities...
All I wanted to say is that handling scenarios and event handlers looks really usefull and is exactly something we're after...

Will that change get into code tree ?

Thanks in advance,

Bulek.



Hi Bulek,

The Micasaverde codebase is really pretty much a re-write for the hardware they are targeting. Also much of the code is closed source. Therefore I cant seen any way that any of its code will be available in LinuxMCE.

However it maybe that some of the approaches taken to simplify some aspects of configuration/setup might be emulated in LinuxMCE.

All the best

Andrew

Hi,

thanks for info... I guess that they changed mostly the highest level of web interface for dealing with events and probably they didn't change event handling engine.... Got any info if web-admin look like part code will be exposed to public ?

Thanks in advance,

regards,

Bulek.


Your best bet is to ask Micasaverde that question ;-)

Andrew
Andy Herron,
Convergent Home Technologies Ltd
United Kingdom
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chriss

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Bulek,

I've tried demo web interface and also scenarios and events handling capabilities...

can you send me a link to that demo? It seems I can find it on their web page.

I spent some thought about working on the current webadmin to get it a little more user friendly. Currently my plans are going in the direction of setting up something like a java application sever with ICEFaces or some other nice frontend. My intention is to make Webadmin a tool every user (not only the admin) can use easily, e.g., the media tagging would need some attention etc.
What do you guys think? Is it worth investigating this possibility or will the java app server be to heaviy for the system?

Regards,
Chriss

hari

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As far as I know, that thread was removed because of the negative reactions from people who were upset at a new commercial product being presented while we are still trying to recover from the damage that was done to linuxmce's codebase in order to create it. 

this was not a few people "upset" but also really insulting and offensive posts.

Regarding the damage:

1.) it is not as big/bad as some try to make it look like
2.) we can revert
3.) the guy who wrote most of the LinuxMCE code was in good faith that we are working on the charon tree. That was also bad communication from our side.

It looks like we totally ignore _who really did the 0710 release_ and now bash over a few glitches.

best regards,
Hari
rock your home - http://www.agocontrol.com home automation

Zaerc

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It was a few people and making insulting and offensive posts is what some people do when they get really upset, somehow I tend to call those negative reactions, silly me.

1.) if it is so trivial, then why haven't we still not recovered after months?
2.) and lose just about all the improvements/fixes that were made over the past 6-12 months.
3.) he was building a new commercial product that has little to do with linuxmce in the linuxmce SVN and could have at least done so in a branch.

If "_who really did the 0710 release_" were actually concerned about linuxmce and this community, they would have helped out instead of leaving us with this mess and making an anonymous announcement for their new product (that was created at our expense).  Some other points, that 0710 release was delayed almost 6 months (presumably mostly due to fiire's commercial interests) and it has some known security issues while no updates were ever released, all in all a pretty abominable job in my opinion.

The sad truth is (or at least so it seems to me) that these people obviously have no interest in working with us, apart from selling us their products.  Which is fine with me, just don't expect my everlasting gratitude considering what is actually going on here. 

"Change is inevitable. Progress is optional."
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aaron.b

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Zaerc.  Your comments are just plain wrong.  All of them, in every way.

>> 1.) if it is so trivial, then why haven't we still not recovered after months?

As a background, I had an svn server which was the official LinuxMCE SVN for a long time.  But, it was slow and there were some connectivity problems, so Hari and Daniel setup a new SVN server (CharonMedia) for LinuxMCE, and my old one wasn't used anymore.  Sometime in August I was testing a way to use UPNP for streaming media and committed some test hacks into my *old* svn server to test a proof of concept.  Unbeknownst to me, at some point the svn commits from the *old* server, which I thought wasn't used anymore, got committed into CharonMedia.  It *is* very trivial to revert an svn commit.  I do it every single day when a programmer commits something that breaks the builder.  It takes < 60 seconds.  You just do: svn log, note the rev #, and then do an svn revert.  No biggie.

I think Thom will confirm that what he and Hari and Daniel have been struggling with for months isn't figuring out how to revert that svn commit.  They're sharp guys, they could have reverted it in an instant.   Rather the struggle has been trying to setup a build environment and get the 0804 or 0810 release out.  In general the guys who are vocal and complain are *not* the ones who do the work.  Those of us who do the work, like Daniel, Hari, Thom, myself, etc., know it is a *HUGE* task to get each LinuxMCE release.  I worked 7 days a week, 16 hours a day without a single day off, for almost 9 months to get 0710 out, *and* I had a paid, full-time staff working on it the whole time.  What's taking Thom, Hari and Daniel so many months is getting the next release out; not reverting an svn commit.

>> 2.) and lose just about all the improvements/fixes that were made over the past 6-12 months.

What improvements did anybody lose?  If you lost something it has *nothing* to do with me.  Thom never mentioned that you "lost" stuff.  You really don't understand the concept of svn.  An errant svn commit doesn't make you *lose* anything.  That's the whole point of svn.  You have a history and can revert any mistakes, and everything is recoverable.

>> 3.) he was building a new commercial product that has little to do with linuxmce in the linuxmce SVN and could have at least done so in a branch.

As I said, I was *NOT* using LinuxMCE's SVN at all.  The LinuxMCE SVN is on charon media.  I have never committed anything to it.  I committed something to my old svn server not knowing it fed into the LinuxMCE SVN server.  And, it had nothing to do with the commercial product anyway.  Like I said it related to UPNP streaming.

>> If "_who really did the 0710 release_" were actually concerned about linuxmce and this community,they would have helped out instead of leaving us

"Leaving us"???  I'm on Thom's, Hari's and Daniel's buddy list on Yahoo IM, and they all have my phone number, and I'm online at least 15 hours/day.   Plus I have regular contact with Hari and Daniel.  Who left?  Further re: "concerned about linuxmce"...  Ok, let's compare...  5 years ago I sold a very nice  in Miami, moved to Romania, where I lived in a tiny hole in the wall for *years* working 365 days/years on LinuxMCE.  Every dime I ever had went into LinuxMCE and paying the team in Romania to keep going on it.  For 4 years.  Do you realize how big LinuxMCE is, and how much code there is, and how much work went into it?  Why would I have done that if I didn't "care"?  And what contribution have you made that you feel you can judge me and say I haven't done my fair share to contribute?  Remember, it's *free* software.  People doing this are volunteers.  Every time someone donates their time to work on it, it's a gift.  Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.  And certainly don't say that somebody isn't doing enough to ensure that you have a nice media server that you don't have to pay a dime for.

>> an anonymous announcement for their new product (that was created at our expense).

At your expense?  How was it at the expense of anyone in the LMCE community?  What you mean by "at our expense" is that up until June, every line of code in LinuxMCE, 5 million lines of it, was written by myself or the full time staff of Pluto.  The *only* contribution in 4 years was 60 lines from Tinia.  So it was *very* easy for the LinuxMCE community to 'coast' up through 0710 because nobody in the community had to do anything.  Pluto paid for the servers, all the developers, everything.  And the community got it for free.  Which is fine.  I don't have a problem with that.  But what's so whacky is that all you guys were constantly screaming "death to Pluto".  Do you remember what you and Barry wrote in that post?  You wrote: "We hope Pluto (ie aaron.b) will just die"...  "We'll be much better without them".  "Death to Pluto".  "Just die"...  Now, in this thread you write that you feel Pluto was "leaving us" (literally) because Pluto isn't doing all the work for you anymore and the community is going through a rough patch to take over.  Do you realize how absolutely *insane* that position is to call for the death of someone and then cry that he's "leaving you"?  Jeez.

>> that 0710 release was delayed almost 6 months (presumably mostly due to fiire's commercial interests)

Again, a totally whacky statement.  Fiire was Pluto's *ONLY* paying customer.  All the work Pluto did, our sole activity, was to write software which was incorporated into LinuxMCE.  There was no diversion of resources for a "commercial" interest; Fiire's interest and LinuxMCE's were the same: a stable 0710.  That's what Fiire paid Pluto to do, and put a lot of pressure on us to fix hundreds of bugs and make many, many improvements, all of which made it into 0710.  So how on earth do you say "0710 was delayed because of Fiire"?  Where on earth does such a ridiculous statement come from?  There wouldn't have been an 0710 if it wasn't for Fiire.  Fiire is what was driving our work because they paid us a license fee per unit.  So, again, going back to that flame post....  LinuxMCE was written completely by Pluto/me.  Fiire was Pluto's paying customer.  You guys were adamant that Fiire must die.  You guys put negative comments *everywhere* in the wiki saying 'death to Fiire', boycott Fiire, etc., because they're "commercial" and trying to build a business by selling LinuxMCE-compatible hardware.  But that commercial business is what paid for LinuxMCE's development!  Do you realize that if Fiire had been successful there would have been an 0804 release already??!!  Do you realize that your "burn Fiire to the ground" comments were really the worst thing you could do for LinuxMCE?

You question how much "concern" I have for LinuxMCE.  WTF???  You guys who are so insistent on destroying any commercial company that tries to build a business which can fund LinuxMCE's development hurt LinuxMCE way more than I ever could.  You say you're "concerned" about LinuxMCE, but then you go for the jugular and want to shut down everyone who pays to keep LinuxMCE going.

LinuxMCE's saviors and guardian angels, btw, are Hari, Daniel and Thom.  Hari somehow managed to get a bunch of kick-ass servers with mega bandwidth to keep things going.  I don't even know who's paying for it.  Did you thank them btw?

>> these people obviously have no interest in working with us, apart from selling us their products.

For years "those people" have done nothing but work day and night on LinuxMCE and contribute everything to the community.  You guys just assume that there's a bunch of fat cats getting rich off the community.  You are *SOOOOO* far off you can't imagine it.  I know the guys at Fiire.  They also gambled everything they had to fund development of LinuxMCE because they couldn't sell hardware unless the software was stable.  Nobody was getting rich, or even paying the bills, off Fiire.  Every dime went into funding LinuxMCE.  A couple guys in Fiire worked without a salary for months to keep things alive.  One suffered major health problems as a result of the stress and will never recover.  The fact is that when Fiire wanted to sell their products they wanted to do everything open source.  But, we couldn't find *any* video drivers that were stable enough for a commercial product.  nVidia was the closest, and their drivers crashed all the time and had bad video tearing.  ATI, Intel, etc. were much further behind.  I personally met with some top execs at nVidia, ATI, and Intel begging for them to put resources into their Linux drivers.  But they all said there was no commercial market for it.  Yeah, duh, it's because guys like you are so opposed to commercial companies using Linux and proclaim 'death' to any commercial company that tries to build a business around open source.  (shoot self in foot)...  nVidia, ATI, Intel, etc., have an obligation to their shareholders to only go after commercially viable markets, and all of them said "Linux is just for servers, there's no commercial market for Linux media centers."  Only closed platforms, like Broadcom and Sigma, have stable Linux drivers (ie TiVo).  Via agreed to develop a rock solid, commercially viable Linux driver and license it to Pluto & Fiire.  Fiire went in with the best intentions and started marketing the Fiire stations based on those assurances from Via.  As you know, the Via drivers weren't as good as we all expected them to be.  So, Fiire bought back lots of Fiire stations from angry customers.  Fiire's employees went without pay so the money could go to buying back Fiire stations.  *Nobody* was getting rich off Fiire.

That's why I wrote in my posts that if there's a company, like Fiire, that gambles on offering a LinuxMCE media center, rather than taking the safe route with Vista, it's in the LinuxMCE community's best interest to support them, not demand that they stop using LinuxMCE (ie switch to Vista).  When Fiire's customer service went to hell, it's much better, imho, to listen to the reason 'why' and offer constructive criticism as opposed to saying "die you bastards and rot in hell".  (Oh, and then cry that you've been "left" when you get your wish)

I just wonder if you realize how much these hateful remarks hurt the community?  You understand that most of the reason why guys like Thom, Hari, Daniel and me make so many sacrifices to develop open source is for the personal satisfaction, since there's little money to be made.  As an extreme analogy to make the point, it's like the people who donate their lives to, for example, Habitat for Hummanty (not that LinuxMCE compares to a home of course).  These people volunteer their time and money to build homes because it makes them feel good to do something nice for the community.  Imagine if after they spent months building a home to give to an underprivileged family, they hand over the keys to that family, hoping to put a smile on their face, and instead the Dad looks at the house and turns to the volunteers and "you filthy bastards giving me that nasty tile floor!  I want Terrazzo damn it.  If you cared about me and my comfort you'd have given me Terrazzo!  Die and rot in hell!", kicks dirt in the volunteers face and throws the keys at them.  How do you think the volunteers feel?  Do you think they feel like putting the effort into getting this family Terrazzofloors?  Do you think they feel excited about volunteering to build the next house?  Bottom line: I think if you showed more appreciation for the people who put in so much effort the community would be a lot better off.

tschak909

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Aaron, while your comments are correct,m I do want to point out here, that Zaerc has been working day and night with us to get the build system working..in fact..he's...the one guy working on it constantly. :)

aaaaanyway.. yeah...some bad blood, for sure.. let's just move forward.

-Thom

aaron.b

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Zaerc, sorry for suggesting you weren't contributing.  That wasn't fair.  I put my heart into lmce, so I'm appreciative of everyone who contributes and keeps it going.

bulek

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Bulek,

I've tried demo web interface and also scenarios and events handling capabilities...

can you send me a link to that demo? It seems I can find it on their web page.

I spent some thought about working on the current webadmin to get it a little more user friendly. Currently my plans are going in the direction of setting up something like a java application sever with ICEFaces or some other nice frontend. My intention is to make Webadmin a tool every user (not only the admin) can use easily, e.g., the media tagging would need some attention etc.
What do you guys think? Is it worth investigating this possibility or will the java app server be to heaviy for the system?

Regards,
Chriss

http://testvera.micasaverde.com/cmh/

First step should be to test event handling and timers at present system...I'm spotting few problems and don't know how to debug them...


Regarding Aaron's post: I'm with Pluto and LMCE since begining - when announcement was made that PlutHome V2 will go open source. All this time I've been in close contact with Aaron (at the times when all normal people are in "sweet dreams" sleeping state) and the great guys from team and of course leading developers in LMCE community - all developers that have put remarkable effort in this system... I'd just like to say THANKS AGAIN...

I'm so happy using LMCE, that I feel obliged to help as much as I can to this project... Before I post question or two, I always try to help other people with their questions too (I'm bad C++ code contributor), post everything I discover relating LMCE on Wiki... And I feel much better...

HTH,

regards,

Bulek (formerly Tinia).

« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 09:06:19 am by bulek »
Thanks in advance,

regards,

Bulek.

Zaerc

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Zaerc.  Your comments are just plain wrong.  All of them, in every way.

>> 1.) if it is so trivial, then why haven't we still not recovered after months?

As a background, I had an svn server which was the official LinuxMCE SVN for a long time.  But, it was slow and there were some connectivity problems, so Hari and Daniel setup a new SVN server (CharonMedia) for LinuxMCE, and my old one wasn't used anymore.  Sometime in August I was testing a way to use UPNP for streaming media and committed some test hacks into my *old* svn server to test a proof of concept.  Unbeknownst to me, at some point the svn commits from the *old* server, which I thought wasn't used anymore, got committed into CharonMedia.  It *is* very trivial to revert an svn commit.  I do it every single day when a programmer commits something that breaks the builder.  It takes < 60 seconds.  You just do: svn log, note the rev #, and then do an svn revert.  No biggie.

The charonmedia.org SVN server was originally setup from the 0704 tarball that came with zero instructions.  The linuxmce.org SVN server of which you assumed wasn't used was in fact used to try and merge the charonmedia tree (which contained Thom's MAME plugin amongst other improvements) with the latest version of linuxmce.  If this *is* so very trivial to fix be my guest, but it seems pretty obvious by now that you have no intention of really assisting with anything that doesn't directly puts money in your pocket.

I think Thom will confirm that what he and Hari and Daniel have been struggling with for months isn't figuring out how to revert that svn commit.  They're sharp guys, they could have reverted it in an instant.   Rather the struggle has been trying to setup a build environment and get the 0804 or 0810 release out.  In general the guys who are vocal and complain are *not* the ones who do the work.  Those of us who do the work, like Daniel, Hari, Thom, myself, etc., know it is a *HUGE* task to get each LinuxMCE release.  I worked 7 days a week, 16 hours a day without a single day off, for almost 9 months to get 0710 out, *and* I had a paid, full-time staff working on it the whole time.  What's taking Thom, Hari and Daniel so many months is getting the next release out; not reverting an svn commit.

You really are completely clueless as to what's going on in this community don't you?  Guess who is doing that *HUGE* task almost single handedly at the moment.  Oh that's right you wouldn't know as he's not on your contact list.

>> 2.) and lose just about all the improvements/fixes that were made over the past 6-12 months.

What improvements did anybody lose?  If you lost something it has *nothing* to do with me.  Thom never mentioned that you "lost" stuff.  You really don't understand the concept of svn.  An errant svn commit doesn't make you *lose* anything.  That's the whole point of svn.  You have a history and can revert any mistakes, and everything is recoverable.

Yes you have no clue to what this community has been up to, we know that by now, let me know when you have the charonmerge tree in working order again, and you then can see for yourself what people have added.

>> 3.) he was building a new commercial product that has little to do with linuxmce in the linuxmce SVN and could have at least done so in a branch.

As I said, I was *NOT* using LinuxMCE's SVN at all.  The LinuxMCE SVN is on charon media.  I have never committed anything to it.  I committed something to my old svn server not knowing it fed into the LinuxMCE SVN server.  And, it had nothing to do with the commercial product anyway.  Like I said it related to UPNP streaming.

Your "old" server being the svn.linuxmce.org server, right?  And I suppose all that "json" and "light" stuff was only for an UPNP server test.  Did this old server at the time also contain the only up to date publicly available source code for linuxmce?  Let me guess, you don't know because you care sooo much for this community.

>> If "_who really did the 0710 release_" were actually concerned about linuxmce and this community,they would have helped out instead of leaving us

"Leaving us"???  I'm on Thom's, Hari's and Daniel's buddy list on Yahoo IM, and they all have my phone number, and I'm online at least 15 hours/day.   Plus I have regular contact with Hari and Daniel.  Who left?  Further re: "concerned about linuxmce"...  Ok, let's compare...  5 years ago I sold a very nice  in Miami, moved to Romania, where I lived in a tiny hole in the wall for *years* working 365 days/years on LinuxMCE.  Every dime I ever had went into LinuxMCE and paying the team in Romania to keep going on it.  For 4 years.  Do you realize how big LinuxMCE is, and how much code there is, and how much work went into it?  Why would I have done that if I didn't "care"?  And what contribution have you made that you feel you can judge me and say I haven't done my fair share to contribute?  Remember, it's *free* software.  People doing this are volunteers.  Every time someone donates their time to work on it, it's a gift.  Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.  And certainly don't say that somebody isn't doing enough to ensure that you have a nice media server that you don't have to pay a dime for.

So you were paying a team of volunteers in romania, I'm sory but you can't really have it both ways.  In reality you have done very little for this community itself.  You seriously need to ask me what contributions I have made to this community? For one I have been a part of it which is more then you can say otherwise you would not have had to ask.

>> an anonymous announcement for their new product (that was created at our expense).

At your expense?  How was it at the expense of anyone in the LMCE community?  What you mean by "at our expense" is that up until June, every line of code in LinuxMCE, 5 million lines of it, was written by myself or the full time staff of Pluto.  The *only* contribution in 4 years was 60 lines from Tinia.  So it was *very* easy for the LinuxMCE community to 'coast' up through 0710 because nobody in the community had to do anything.  Pluto paid for the servers, all the developers, everything.  And the community got it for free.  Which is fine.  I don't have a problem with that. 

Up untill June, while in August you ruined the codebase to do some experimentation as you've just informed us.  Thanks again for being so involved in this community.

But what's so whacky is that all you guys were constantly screaming "death to Pluto".  Do you remember what you and Barry wrote in that post?  You wrote: "We hope Pluto (ie aaron.b) will just die"...  "We'll be much better without them".  "Death to Pluto".  "Just die"... 

I have never ever written a post like that, in fact my only reaction to that thread was pointing out that the wiki page about foss that was linked was empty, which aparently is typical.  Whatever Barry wrote has nothing to do with me.

Now, in this thread you write that you feel Pluto was "leaving us" (literally) because Pluto isn't doing all the work for you anymore and the community is going through a rough patch to take over.  Do you realize how absolutely *insane* that position is to call for the death of someone and then cry that he's "leaving you"?  Jeez.

First off all I never called for anyone's death you big drama queen.  Secondly the only thing I'm sad about to see you guys bugger of is that it wasn't sooner, like before you decided that the linuxmce SVN was a suitable place to start experimenting.  Trust me, your presence (or actually lack thereof) won't be missed by this community at all.

>> that 0710 release was delayed almost 6 months (presumably mostly due to fiire's commercial interests)

Again, a totally whacky statement.  Fiire was Pluto's *ONLY* paying customer.  All the work Pluto did, our sole activity, was to write software which was incorporated into LinuxMCE.  There was no diversion of resources for a "commercial" interest; Fiire's interest and LinuxMCE's were the same: a stable 0710.  That's what Fiire paid Pluto to do, and put a lot of pressure on us to fix hundreds of bugs and make many, many improvements, all of which made it into 0710.  So how on earth do you say "0710 was delayed because of Fiire"?  Where on earth does such a ridiculous statement come from?  There wouldn't have been an 0710 if it wasn't for Fiire.  Fiire is what was driving our work because they paid us a license fee per unit.  So, again, going back to that flame post....  LinuxMCE was written completely by Pluto/me.  Fiire was Pluto's paying customer.

I don't think this community had any interest whatsoever in the VIA drivers that were exclusively available to fiire.  And what happened to all that volunteering for the community?  Suddenly it's all about the paying customers again.  If you're going to lecture me like this then at least have the decency to be honest and open about these things.

You guys were adamant that Fiire must die.  You guys put negative comments *everywhere* in the wiki saying 'death to Fiire', boycott Fiire, etc., because they're "commercial" and trying to build a business by selling LinuxMCE-compatible hardware. 

I never put anything negative about fiire in the wiki, in fact it was me who initially made pages for their products.  And those comments weren't put there because of the reasons you give, they were put there by angry fiire customers.  Again a little honesty goes a long way.

But that commercial business is what paid for LinuxMCE's development!  Do you realize that if Fiire had been successful there would have been an 0804 release already??!!  Do you realize that your "burn Fiire to the ground" comments were really the worst thing you could do for LinuxMCE?

Again I never made any such comments.  Where the fuck do you get off puting words in my mouth like that anyway?

You question how much "concern" I have for LinuxMCE.  WTF???  You guys who are so insistent on destroying any commercial company that tries to build a business which can fund LinuxMCE's development hurt LinuxMCE way more than I ever could.  You say you're "concerned" about LinuxMCE, but then you go for the jugular and want to shut down everyone who pays to keep LinuxMCE going.

Somehow I never heard CHT complain that I'm trying to destroy them.  They claim to be paying you for licenses too, but I guess their success in actually working with this community probably doesn't suit your ridiculously dishonest rant at me.  And I don't really want to get them involved in this but rumour has it that they had similar problems with your little experiment on "your old SVN server". 

LinuxMCE's saviors and guardian angels, btw, are Hari, Daniel and Thom.  Hari somehow managed to get a bunch of kick-ass servers with mega bandwidth to keep things going.  I don't even know who's paying for it.  Did you thank them btw?

Thank who exactly, the people of which you don't even know who they are?  Your ignorance is getting really pathetic now.

>> these people obviously have no interest in working with us, apart from selling us their products.

For years "those people" have done nothing but work day and night on LinuxMCE and contribute everything to the community.  You guys just assume that there's a bunch of fat cats getting rich off the community.  You are *SOOOOO* far off you can't imagine it.  I know the guys at Fiire.  They also gambled everything they had to fund development of LinuxMCE because they couldn't sell hardware unless the software was stable.  Nobody was getting rich, or even paying the bills, off Fiire.  Every dime went into funding LinuxMCE.  A couple guys in Fiire worked without a salary for months to keep things alive.  One suffered major health problems as a result of the stress and will never recover.  The fact is that when Fiire wanted to sell their products they wanted to do everything open source.  But, we couldn't find *any* video drivers that were stable enough for a commercial product.  nVidia was the closest, and their drivers crashed all the time and had bad video tearing.  ATI, Intel, etc. were much further behind.  I personally met with some top execs at nVidia, ATI, and Intel begging for them to put resources into their Linux drivers.  But they all said there was no commercial market for it.  Yeah, duh, it's because guys like you are so opposed to commercial companies using Linux and proclaim 'death' to any commercial company that tries to build a business around open source.  (shoot self in foot)...  nVidia, ATI, Intel, etc., have an obligation to their shareholders to only go after commercially viable markets, and all of them said "Linux is just for servers, there's no commercial market for Linux media centers."  Only closed platforms, like Broadcom and Sigma, have stable Linux drivers (ie TiVo).  Via agreed to develop a rock solid, commercially viable Linux driver and license it to Pluto & Fiire.  Fiire went in with the best intentions and started marketing the Fiire stations based on those assurances from Via.  As you know, the Via drivers weren't as good as we all expected them to be.  So, Fiire bought back lots of Fiire stations from angry customers.  Fiire's employees went without pay so the money could go to buying back Fiire stations.  *Nobody* was getting rich off Fiire.

That's why I wrote in my posts that if there's a company, like Fiire, that gambles on offering a LinuxMCE media center, rather than taking the safe route with Vista, it's in the LinuxMCE community's best interest to support them, not demand that they stop using LinuxMCE (ie switch to Vista).

Speaking of shooting self in foot, being dishonest or ignoring customers is usually not a very good business strategy, I'm hoping you have learned that by now but somehow I doubt it.  However as sad as your stories are, none of that has anything to do with this community.  And "guys like me"?  You don't even know me so how can you say what I'm "so opposed to", you ignorant lying bafoon.

When Fiire's customer service went to hell, it's much better, imho, to listen to the reason 'why' and offer constructive criticism as opposed to saying "die you bastards and rot in hell".  (Oh, and then cry that you've been "left" when you get your wish)

Ah yes the linuxmce gurus, who apparently all just happen to live in India, another great example of honesty.  Regardless I have never said anything of the sorts.  Neither am I crying that we've been left, I'm crying that you fucked up the trunk in favor of mecasaverde.

I just wonder if you realize how much these hateful remarks hurt the community?

Once again, "these remarks" you claim I have made, do not exist in reality.  And what exactly would you know about this community that you have never been any part of?

You understand that most of the reason why guys like Thom, Hari, Daniel and me make so many sacrifices to develop open source is for the personal satisfaction, since there's little money to be made. 

Seems more like you're the one who doesn't understand that.

As an extreme analogy to make the point, it's like the people who donate their lives to, for example, Habitat for Hummanty (not that LinuxMCE compares to a home of course).  These people volunteer their time and money to build homes because it makes them feel good to do something nice for the community.  Imagine if after they spent months building a home to give to an underprivileged family, they hand over the keys to that family, hoping to put a smile on their face, and instead the Dad looks at the house and turns to the volunteers and "you filthy bastards giving me that nasty tile floor!  I want Terrazzo damn it.  If you cared about me and my comfort you'd have given me Terrazzo!  Die and rot in hell!", kicks dirt in the volunteers face and throws the keys at them.  How do you think the volunteers feel?  Do you think they feel like putting the effort into getting this family Terrazzofloors?  Do you think they feel excited about volunteering to build the next house? 

Since the family was left with a complete functioning house, and we with a source tree that was broken in many ways, that analogy is complete bullshit, let me give you a more relevant, simpeler one:

How do you think the members in this community would feel if, after I sort out the mess we inherited from you, I would ruin the codebase again and then offered them to buy the new version from me? 


Bottom line: I think if you showed more appreciation for the people who put in so much effort the community would be a lot better off.

And I think if you had shown any interest in this community at all we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.  In fact you're so involved that you don't even know who is doing what in this community, what it's problems are or even what the current state of affairs is. 

Bottom line is you have only been concerned with fiire's and your own commercial interests, and now you come here to play the saint of open source who did everything solely for the community.  You talk about volunteering while you admit to having full payed staff working.  Yeah right, your comments are so deceitful it is not even funny anymore.  At least have the decency to get your facts straight before you single somebody out as "the big hatemonger that ruined all your business" when the sad and simple truth is that both you and fiire haven't been taking care of business properly (and I don't think I have to point the fiire experience thread out to you). 

You know I once started out as a grateful user, but thanks to your apathy towards this community I no longer care if you wrote the linux kernel all by yourself, and after this ludacris rant you can piss right off for all I care.  So do yourself a huge favor and go look for another scapegoat to blame your self inflicted misery uppon, as you're definately barking up the wrong tree here.
"Change is inevitable. Progress is optional."
-- Anonymous


tschak909

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Come on, guys.

Let's calm down.

We know what we need to do to go forward. Let's just go forward. The only thing I need to contribute to this discussion is a reminder that this software would not exist if Aaron.b and the romanian team didn't put in the effort to write it in the first place.

The LinuxMCE fork would not exist if Paul Webber didn't decide to fork it off.

The 0710 release would not exist at all (no matter how late it was) if Aaron and the romanian team didn't take over from Paul's reigns (because at that time a community didn't exist)

and finally, we would not have a community right now if you, me, hari, daniel, possy, tkmedia, malard, niz23, uplink, and totallymaxed didn't finally decide to take matters into our own hands.

In the end, it really was a case of lack of communication on both ends, yes fault on both sides. and we the community assumed the worst.

I'm asking for everybody to read this, and not reply. Let's sit..and think...and calm down... I do not want to see people saying "fuck it" over something like this. There was no deliberate sabotage.

(yeah, me telling everyone to calm down.. funny, right? ... well, take it as a sign that I'm being very serious.)

mini-state-of-the-union:

Let's keep doing what we're doing. We're going forward for the first time in a few months. Zaerc has gotten successful builds of the system to CD, and is now working on trying to get all our database and code in sync... Hari is balancing work with the build system as well... Possy is working on a new iphone orbiter, I'm balancing between migrating the mail system from qmail to postfix and investigating a solution for DVD builds again, Uplink and totallymaxed are working on the VDR integration. niz23 is assisting them, as well as investigating a better UPnP solution..... and tkmedia is slowly learning how to build the windows CE binaries etc... so we're coming along! :)

*deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep-breath*

let's relax.

-Thom