Author Topic: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu  (Read 9663 times)

JimmyGosling

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2008, 07:15:05 pm »
I feel that the only change on this forum we really need is an additional yawning smilie for threads like these...
lol  ;D

I actually really enjoyed this post.  Yes, there was some bashing, but he also made some very good points about the frustrations that I have encountered as well.

Hari is correct in saying that if MythBuntu is going to fit the bill... then use MythBuntu.  I want LMCE to work because I want all the things that MythBuntu doesn't have.

I started in the late pluto days using some hardware laying around and found very limited success.  When I made the switch to LMCE I did my homework and invested wisely, although cautiously, and that seems to have been to my benefit.

I had some family over last night and we all sat down for a movie the first time together.  Everyone was very impressed with the setup and especially the lighting controls (thanks ddamron).  My girlfriend of course had to ruin it by telling them all about my swearing tirades and frustrations.  But when it came down to it, I was still glad that I had spent my time here.  When things break she still gives me crap about it and I need to remind here that this is not a finished product yet. 

skeptic

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2008, 09:02:28 pm »
I had some family over last night and we all sat down for a movie the first time together.  Everyone was very impressed with the setup and especially the lighting controls (thanks ddamron).  My girlfriend of course had to ruin it by telling them all about my swearing tirades and frustrations.  But when it came down to it, I was still glad that I had spent my time here.  When things break she still gives me crap about it and I need to remind here that this is not a finished product yet. 
This is where I hope to get to.  Right now I'm somewhere between swearing/frustrations and a barely functioning system  I'm afraid to touch.

The original poster clearly did a fair amount of research, wiki and forum searching, attempted to buy new hardware that should have worked, and overall gave it a pretty good attempt.  Negative comments basically telling the guy to leave if he doesn't like it really do a disservice to LMCE.  He has valid points, and other potential new users are going to read threads like this and think LMCE is not worth the hassle to figure out on your own and the forum is full of elitist jerks. 

As for splitting up the forum into sub groups, I think it would be useful if the split were by version or as another poster mentioned, stable vs. unstable releases.

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2008, 09:15:20 pm »
I had some family over last night and we all sat down for a movie the first time together.  Everyone was very impressed with the setup and especially the lighting controls (thanks ddamron).  My girlfriend of course had to ruin it by telling them all about my swearing tirades and frustrations.  But when it came down to it, I was still glad that I had spent my time here.  When things break she still gives me crap about it and I need to remind here that this is not a finished product yet. 
This is where I hope to get to.  Right now I'm somewhere between swearing/frustrations and a barely functioning system  I'm afraid to touch.

The original poster clearly did a fair amount of research, wiki and forum searching, attempted to buy new hardware that should have worked, and overall gave it a pretty good attempt.  Negative comments basically telling the guy to leave if he doesn't like it really do a disservice to LMCE.  He has valid points, and other potential new users are going to read threads like this and think LMCE is not worth the hassle to figure out on your own and the forum is full of elitist jerks. 

As for splitting up the forum into sub groups, I think it would be useful if the split were by version or as another poster mentioned, stable vs. unstable releases.

The original poster did do an incredible amount of research and work... can't get away from that at all. But... we build on average 7-10 systems per week and we don't experience those problems. I expect to be able to get a basic Core running in about an hour (from scratch). Adding 5-8 MD's, Lighting and other options takes time... but it works. I am not saying everything is 100% perfect... what software ever is ;-)... but for the most part the problems we see are really relatively small.

The secret is to follow a well trodden path on hardware... dont' try to 'run before you can walk' and ask simple specific question if you hit a problem. There are plenty of us here who will help ;-)
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skeptic

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2008, 11:20:05 pm »

The original poster did do an incredible amount of research and work... can't get away from that at all. But... we build on average 7-10 systems per week and we don't experience those problems. I expect to be able to get a basic Core running in about an hour (from scratch). Adding 5-8 MD's, Lighting and other options takes time... but it works. I am not saying everything is 100% perfect... what software ever is ;-)... but for the most part the problems we see are really relatively small.

The secret is to follow a well trodden path on hardware... dont' try to 'run before you can walk' and ask simple specific question if you hit a problem. There are plenty of us here who will help ;-)

Agreed, which is where I hope to pick this up again, using well tested hardware and changing my network config to match.  The problem is when the wiki and some forum posts imply that something should work when it really doesn't.  A "LinuxMCE is a highly customized and automated system that will only work with very specific hardware, do not attempt to use anything not specifically listed as fully functional unless you are an advanced user or wish to beta test" type warning at the top of the hardware requirements wiki would go a long way to minimizing new user frustration.  It might also be worth while to have a similar "networking doesn't work right unless you do it the LMCE way" type message, although this is somewhat implied. 

JimmyGosling

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2008, 12:51:38 am »
I think another issue is that some things which current users might think of as just "common sense" don't come through to others.  Documentation is always the first thing left by the wayside, and it become increasing hard to document, alongside even, when you're not entirely sure that the fruits of your labor are going to pay off in the end.

now this is my opinion and no one else's but I think that c++ is also an inherently complex language.  multiply that by the incredibly large feature and hardware set we have here and then add in the variable of a decentralized development team and you'll see what a feat it is to get something like this to market.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 12:56:39 am by JimmyGosling »

JahT

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2008, 07:44:46 am »
Nothing good comes without some work.

Read my bitch session here:

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4247.msg24374#msg24374

But then I get these little break-throughs, with the latest being support for my HA22 z-wave dongle.  I followed the steps in the wiki, and the wizard went to work.  Whammo, I have control of all of my lights!!! something I have wanted working for 7 months.  Thank you anyone/everyone for getting that working!!!! And then seeing tschak909's videos for integrated MAME roms, I am hooked on LMCE.  Of course I am 8 months in w/ a box that only plays pretty flicker slideshows and turns my lights on and off, but it is still awesome.  I am now completing month's of research on the correct parts to make a dedicated core and two MD's so I can take advantage of all features (my current ATI all-in-wonder x800xt is not working in mythtv).

My only suggestion for the forum or wiki is to have the users document their working systems with a picture gallery.  Then someone could get started by copying what someone else has proven to work and explained how they got there.  I know the wiki lists proven components, but I'd like to see a listing of a user's complete system parts, case and all.  Again THANKS for my z-wave lights, I'm hooked!!

teedge77

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2008, 02:18:44 pm »
a picture gallery has already been started.

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User_Setups 

hopefully more people will be able to add to it soon.
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bmac2

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2008, 07:11:28 pm »
My only question to all of the problems and you say a lack of answers and support is did you ever come to the IRC channel and ask for help?  We average at least 40 devs/users/helpers in there at all times.  Ask some of the users who come in there, people get help in there!  If it is a major issue that some of us grunt level question answerers can't do, we get hari, ddamron, tschak, danielk, etc ( an experienced dev type ) involved IN the channel discussion.  And we have a good history of fixing issues, or if it IS a code issue, start fixing it.

NOW, I will be the first to admit the WIKI is frustrating, poorly organized, and has conflicting info.  The amount of stuff that was inherited with this project is HUGE.  I personally agree with a comment that TSCAK made the other night in the irc channel.  "The wiki makes me want to go in with a scythe and start cutting and destroying!". 

NOW, your issue of hardware that SHOULD work not working.  One of the dev types bought the Fiire station hardware, not just the remote, but the desktop models that according to PLUTO and the wiki and the documentation info should be plug and play.  HE still has issues with them.  The only thing I can say is that the documentation we have came with huge bugs and misinformation.  Again, the irc channel is where the most competent people to answer specific hardware issues are located. 

I have seen a lot of "experts" with opinions on the forums that have never written a line of code for the project, OR done any work of any kind.  They hang out and write stuff in here and some of them make me wonder if they have even installed linuxmce at all EVER!!  If you rely on just these supposed experts in the forums, and the wiki you are not getting all the answers. The devs try to answer stuff on here, but they are facing an enormous task with the code base we inherited. And finding stuff in the wiki amounts to hunting for a land mine on the beach sometimes.

Now if you just want movies and music, mythbuntu,  mythtv, and several others are the way to go.  MythTV is an awsome project, very mature and really rocks at what it is intended to do.  Audio and Video.  As we push further into cleaning code, then maybe linuxmce becomes another valid option for JUST that, but I doubt it because the entire premise of the software is to do phone, HOME AUTOMATION along with the mythv stuff, not JUST video/audo. But please don't bash the devs and the project for NOT being a mature project, nor for still having issues.  I am really sorry you obviously have a lot of anger towards the software and will probably never be a fan of it.  I agree you have valid points on the documentation, and there is right now a newbie installation guide being written to address that very thing.

Again, I don't disagree with most of your issues.  The only one I don't agree with is that you didn't use the irc chat room to get some of these solved.  If you don't believe me come to the channel and hang out and just watch issues get addressed.  Thanks, and off my soap box now!!!

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skeptic

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2008, 09:43:47 pm »
I'm glad to finally hear some comments from others on how misleading the wiki is.  The idea of removing it completely, and just adding back those parts that are KNOWN to be correct sounds great to me. 

On the other hand, can you honestly expect a newbie who started with the wiki, moved on to the forums, and spent real money on hardware that was supposed to work to then move on to IRC expecting a solution?  I'm not sure if that was ever even suggested to the OP, nor do I remember anyone pointing me there when I was having problems and was about to give up completely.

bmac2

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2008, 10:00:10 pm »
The idea of removing it completely, and just adding back those parts that are KNOWN to be correct sounds great to me. 

The major problem is that people who FIND these wrong sections need to add to the wiki pointing out what is wrong.  That wike is sooooo damn big that it would take months of several people's time to check every post in it for correctness.  Some of the info has changed as the versions of kubuntu or the versions of linuxmce has changed.  So what may be right today may be hosed tomorrow.  Please anyone finding wrong documentation, ADD to the wiki saying what you found or why it is wrong.  OR what hardware caused it to hose.

the irc channel is on irc.freenode.net   the channel is #linuxmce

and like I said there is usually 40+ people in there round the clock, and the main developers stay in there most of the time along with some of us less skilled developer-wanna-bes answering questions.

totallymaxed

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2008, 09:19:38 am »
I'm glad to finally hear some comments from others on how misleading the wiki is.  The idea of removing it completely, and just adding back those parts that are KNOWN to be correct sounds great to me. 

On the other hand, can you honestly expect a newbie who started with the wiki, moved on to the forums, and spent real money on hardware that was supposed to work to then move on to IRC expecting a solution?  I'm not sure if that was ever even suggested to the OP, nor do I remember anyone pointing me there when I was having problems and was about to give up completely.

Look the Wiki is an incredible resource - I use it everyday for many things related to LinuxMCE. But the problem is that it is a 'live' animal with both changing & some 'stale' content... and not enough willing helpers to keep it fresh or to extend it. People like Zaerc have pressed tirelessly for all of us to get into the Wiki and use it and IMPORTANTLY update it. He certainly made me think about it differently! I know from personal experience that at first editing and updating the Wiki is a pain... but the more you do it the easier it gets. There is power in numbers... if we can get exponential growth in the amount of 'editors' updating the Wiki then the quality & accuracy will improve very quickly indeed ;-)

Andrew
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bradandersen

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2008, 10:08:57 pm »
 ???  >:(  :'(

Yep, I'd have to agree a little.  This product is not for the faint of heart or the Linux shy.  I was looking for a good weekend project - this certainly was not it!  I've spent 3 days reading posts and trying to figure it all out to no avail.  It did install perfectly and then proceeded not to find anything (TV Tuner, USB IR Remote, Sony DeMux/Service, Shared drives on my local network).  Currently, it is a very nice Flickr screensaver.

*Recommendation 1: Put links for everything on the Wiki, The Homepage, and The Forum so users can easily jump around without bookmarks.

I didn't know what I had other than an HP m8100n Media Center PC so I was at a bit of loss as to if my system was compatible.

*Recommendation 2: Perhaps a little script that does an lsusb and lspci and uploads/compares/flags it would be nice before I wipe away a perfectly good working Windows Media Center

BTW, I have:
TV/FM Tuner Card: Conexant CX23418 (Not currently MythTV compatible so I'm quite SOL)
IR Transceiver: Alcor Micro Corp. (IR Receiver with 2 transmitters)

Although the UI is perfect (except I don't know how to control a music CD or DVD just yet) the installation is far from Fisher-Price.

Signing off I will say that the concept is awesome and I wish you all the best of luck.  I just wish all of the developers would come together on a single project to make a product like this happen for the good of all mankind.  Perhaps if I actually purchase the products I will have a little better luck and provide some funding to the core of this product.

Also, do not try to make a custom USB (A-> A) cable for a Sony Bravia DeMux/Service port as it doesn't work.

Thanks,
Brad

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2008, 10:23:23 pm »
What I was looking for in this product that might keep a few other users around a little bit longer and avoid frustrations:

*Get the core Media Server built, polished and EASY
 -I want to plug it in, have it discover my media and work
  -Discover remote shares, make it easy to add/mount them
  -Once I load the KDE Desktop and map a drive, where do I copy media files to???  Put those folders on the desktop.
  -How do I mount an SMB drive and have it be seen
  -An import option?
 -Why the internal and external IP (good tech reasons I'm sure)
 -It is in my living room, I want to connect to the Admin interface from my office or VNC/Remote Support
 
*Compete with Windows Media Center PCs
 -Support the hardware they ship with

Bitch, bitch, bitch....

However, once again, thanks for the incredible work you are attempting to accomplish - I'll be back in 6-12 months.

los93sol

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2008, 12:14:19 am »
Discussion of restructuring the forums moved to: http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=5263.0

skerit

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Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2008, 01:30:40 am »
My only complaint is the unsynchronized releases, because it makes a lot of stuff harder to fix.

Other then that, I agree LinuxMCE is much more then a regular media center like Mythbuntu. It has a much more massive code base with a lot more features, so it'll take a while, but we'll get there.

I had to remove LinuxMCE 0710 from my HTPC a few days ago because I needed to test my Technotrend DVB-s2 S2-3200 card, using Mythbuntu, and I do miss LinuxMCE! :P