Author Topic: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?  (Read 6080 times)

colinjones

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2009, 07:40:30 am »
Leave them on the external network for now, so they are not dependant on the core being up. Patch one over to the internal network whilst you are testing and back again, when done. The only other sane option is to dual home one of the PCs on both internal and external networks, but even that is not very sane!

Given that it's a single NIC core configuration, I was contemplating turning off the DHCP server on the firewall/router and assigning fixed IPs to the existing PCs as well as the LinuxMCE core itself.  I'm thinking that should keep me going with a minimum amount of fuss. Do you see a problem with this?

Thanks

I didn't realise that you were also planning a single NIC installation. One word: Don't.

If you have read this thread, and any of hundreds of other threads like it, you should already know that this is NOT a supported configuration, you will break the system, and you definitely do not have the experience yet, necessary to install and maintain such a configuration. Requiring a separate network segment, being the DHCP server for that segment, routing and even to an extent firewalling are all required features of the network setup to ensure LMCE works correctly. If you try to re-engineer around this, whole portions of LMCE will cease working.... additionally you won't get any support!

Dual NIC is the correct configuration, can cost as little as $10 more to implement, and has none of the disadvantages that newbies fear of it.... so people trying to go this way receive little sympathy or assistance once they have broken their system having been advised not to do it :)

Read here - http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Network_Setup

totallymaxed

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2009, 12:45:04 pm »
Leave them on the external network for now, so they are not dependant on the core being up. Patch one over to the internal network whilst you are testing and back again, when done. The only other sane option is to dual home one of the PCs on both internal and external networks, but even that is not very sane!

Given that it's a single NIC core configuration, I was contemplating turning off the DHCP server on the firewall/router and assigning fixed IPs to the existing PCs as well as the LinuxMCE core itself.  I'm thinking that should keep me going with a minimum amount of fuss. Do you see a problem with this?

Thanks
Dual NIC is the correct configuration, can cost as little as $10 more to implement, and has none of the disadvantages that newbies fear of it.... so people trying to go this way receive little sympathy or assistance once they have broken their system having been advised not to do it :)

Read here - http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Network_Setup

Hmmm... look we've been using single NIC Core's since 2005 and they can work very well if setup as I recommended in my earlier post in this thread. In some cases using a single NIC is convenient if you only have a single run of CAT5 going to where you Core is located (as in my case in fact)...or if you just dont have any spare slots for a 2nd NIC is another situation that might make this config suitable (again this applies to me too). If none of these limitations apply to you and you can configure a 2nd NIC then I would do so as overall it gives you a better topology and additional security through the routing/firewall capabilities in the Core.

So as long as you use the config I described earlier your Core will be perfectly happy with a single NIC...any deviation though will give you problems.

All the best

Andrew
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dbs

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2009, 06:56:54 pm »

[/quote]

Hmmm... look we've been using single NIC Core's since 2005 and they can work very well if setup as I recommended in my earlier post in this thread. In some cases using a single NIC is convenient if you only have a single run of CAT5 going to where you Core is located (as in my case in fact)...or if you just dont have any spare slots for a 2nd NIC is another situation that might make this config suitable (again this applies to me too). If none of these limitations apply to you and you can configure a 2nd NIC then I would do so as overall it gives you a better topology and additional security through the routing/firewall capabilities in the Core.

So as long as you use the config I described earlier your Core will be perfectly happy with a single NIC...any deviation though will give you problems.

All the best

Andrew
[/quote]

Thanks Andrew and, also, collinjones

Some of your constraints apply and I was also hoping to be able to bring the core up on my existing lan for testing without having to recable or reconfigure to keep my legacy units online. Additionally, in another thread a member indicated a preference for his existing firewall and didn't want to put the overhead on the core. I tend to lean that way myself.

Your configuration looks pretty straightforward.

Turn off DHCP on the firewall/router and assign a fixed IP to LinuxMCE 192.168.1.xx (my gateway)

Allwo LinuxMCE to assign 192.168.80.xx logins

The crux of my question is can I assign a static IP to my existing PCs in the 192.168.1.xx domain without breakiing or confusing LinuxMCE? If not, I'll take collins kind advice.

Thanks


totallymaxed

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2009, 08:56:37 pm »
[quote author=dbs link=topic=4574.msg49621#msg49621 date=1237831014

Thanks Andrew and, also, collinjones

Some of your constraints apply and I was also hoping to be able to bring the core up on my existing lan for testing without having to recable or reconfigure to keep my legacy units online. Additionally, in another thread a member indicated a preference for his existing firewall and didn't want to put the overhead on the core. I tend to lean that way myself.

Your configuration looks pretty straightforward.

Turn off DHCP on the firewall/router and assign a fixed IP to LinuxMCE 192.168.1.xx (my gateway)

Allwo LinuxMCE to assign 192.168.80.xx logins

The crux of my question is can I assign a static IP to my existing PCs in the 192.168.1.xx domain without breakiing or confusing LinuxMCE? If not, I'll take collins kind advice.

Thanks


[/quote]

If you want to use some static addresses then adjust to top end range for non-pluto devices down from say 192.168.80.254 (the default) to say 192.168.80.244. This would give you 10 addresses outside the non-pluto devices DHCP range that you could use for fixed addresses etc. That will work fine in my experience.

All the best

Andrew
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 11:58:52 pm by totallymaxed »
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hari

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2009, 11:44:24 pm »
Andrew, you have years of LMCE/Pluto experience, so I really expect _you_ to be able to setup a single NIC system :-)

br, hari
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dbs

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2009, 12:59:49 am »
[quote author=dbs link=topic=4574.msg49621#msg49621 date=1237831014

Thanks Andrew and, also, collinjones

Some of your constraints apply and I was also hoping to be able to bring the core up on my existing lan for testing without having to recable or reconfigure to keep my legacy units online. Additionally, in another thread a member indicated a preference for his existing firewall and didn't want to put the overhead on the core. I tend to lean that way myself.

Your configuration looks pretty straightforward.

Turn off DHCP on the firewall/router and assign a fixed IP to LinuxMCE 192.168.1.xx (my gateway)

Allwo LinuxMCE to assign 192.168.80.xx logins

The crux of my question is can I assign a static IP to my existing PCs in the 192.168.1.xx domain without breakiing or confusing LinuxMCE? If not, I'll take collins kind advice.

Thanks



If you want to use some static addresses then adjust to top end range for non-pluto devices down from say 192.168.80.254 (the default) to say 192.168.80.244. This would give you 10 addresses outside the non-pluto devices DHCP range that you could use for fixed addresses etc. That will work fine in my experience.

All the best

Andrew
[/quote]

Thanks, Andrew, I'll give it a go. I had planned on keeping a small range of IPs for the purpose. If it works, great. If not, no biggie. Just wanted to know if there were any obvious conflicts.

boris

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2009, 08:33:21 am »
...
pool { allow unknown-clients; range 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0;}
...

After recompiling and replacing PlutoDHCP in usr/pluto/bin, without any code changes, this problem went away. I no longer need to check "Provide IP addresses for anonymous...". I wanted core/hybrid to work this way, so I have control of PCs booting from network. Also, all other devices on network get address from DHCP server on Dlink router. DHCP ranges on core/hybrid router and Dlink router do not overlap, but are on the same subnet.

The reason I want it to work this way so I can use my iPAQ as orbiter via wireless network.

So, in my opinion, if you plan to use wireless orbiters then it is better to use only one NIC. As far as I understand if you use wireless orbiter, I my case iPAQ, then it has to connect to internal NIC. So if two NICs are used and one is external connected to router(most of them are wireless these days), then one would need to have second wireless router connected to internal NIC, right or I am missing something? The second wireless router has to be on internal network so your wireless device gets configured via DHCP (I am assuming we trying to say away from manual network confutation as much as possible) and load orbiter from the core.

hari

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2009, 02:25:32 pm »
thats called an access point.

Quote
So, in my opinion, if you plan to use wireless orbiters then it is better to use only one NIC
please don't suggest that to users..

you just need to connect a $15 access point to the internal nic.. done.

br, Hari
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boris

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2009, 04:51:31 pm »
thats called an access point.

Quote
So, in my opinion, if you plan to use wireless orbiters then it is better to use only one NIC
please don't suggest that to users..

you just need to connect a $15 access point to the internal nic.. done.

br, Hari

Hi Hari,
You call it access point, I call it wireless router (that would be used as access point), but at the end it does not matter because they both serve the same purpose :).  I can not find access point for $15.00, the least expensive access point that I can find is about $40.00 (http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&Description=access%20point&bop=And&Order=PRICE). So extra nic $10 then $15-40 for access point, I thought one of the goals was to use equipment user already have and keep the cost down. I have read a few posts where users were pretty upset because they had to spend money on new equipment (regardless of cost $1 or $100).

I think, I understand the design concepts, goals and intended use/configurations of LinuxMCE, only because I do not agree with some of them, it does not make me a bad person, right? I do like, the capabilities and futures of LinuxMCE, if I did not like it I would not use it :)

I did not meant for my comment to be interpreted as suggestion or advice, I only stated my opinion, and I am sorry if it was misinterpreted as suggestion.

tschak909

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2009, 05:14:12 pm »
No, it's just hard enough when we have to deal with users that quite simply think they know better, and confuse many users who are NOT network geeks.

We have ONE supported configuration, that is what we can support, if you do anything else? guess what? YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN. Don't be surprised when things do not work as expected.

I am tired of reading these threads, and having to say the same things OVER and OVER and OVER because people refuse to read what has happened in the past. But i'm sure i'll be saying the same thing, once again, to someone else who thinks they know better, or didn't follow directions...

-Thom

boris

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2009, 05:33:05 pm »
Thom, as I already said I am sorry. I know if I do out of the box config install I am on my own. Please do not get mad, I am not mad :). It looks that freymann was following instructions. My point is make decision about 1 or 2 nics before you start install, I did test install on single nic just to confirm that PlutoDHCP would work on other machine and it was easy, because I knew I was installing for single nic and it was install from scratch. Also, LinuxMCE install is intelligent to configure it self correctly, regardless 1 or 2 nics, but the trick is to do clean install knowing if you plan to use 1 or 2 nics. It seems to me that all these problems happen when user start to make changes after install.   

.....
 Yes, but I followed the instructions given in "Single NIC & Existing DHCPd" which I can't locate the link for, because I guess, I hate this wiki system.
......
 I'm no dummy, but after 4 days of struggling (and hey, I have made great progress to date) with LinuxMCE, my views about it are rather dim right now.
.....
 Yeah, I'm steamed, 'cause I spent 4 days friggin with the stuff. Believing the "demo video" I went out and spend $300-$400 on equipment to make media directors, get gyro mouses, video capture cards, IRD transceivers and remote, and gave up my ubuntu workstation to act as the core.

 Impressed? Not.


totallymaxed

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2009, 07:22:26 pm »
Does LinuxMCE support diskless MD's when configured to use only 1 NIC and be the DHCP server?

and yes of course diskless PXE booted MD's work fine on single NIC cores. My system at home and numerous customer systems we have installed have always been single NIC. In fact twin NIC cores were an 'after thought'...in the early Pluto days all Cores were single NIC. I guess at home I have just not bothered to change. Generally speaking as a company we only install twin NIC systems today... except for in the smallest apartment sized systems.

All the best

Andrew
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colinjones

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2009, 11:26:15 pm »
Thom, as I already said I am sorry. I know if I do out of the box config install I am on my own. Please do not get mad, I am not mad :). It looks that freymann was following instructions. My point is make decision about 1 or 2 nics before you start install, I did test install on single nic just to confirm that PlutoDHCP would work on other machine and it was easy, because I knew I was installing for single nic and it was install from scratch. Also, LinuxMCE install is intelligent to configure it self correctly, regardless 1 or 2 nics, but the trick is to do clean install knowing if you plan to use 1 or 2 nics. It seems to me that all these problems happen when user start to make changes after install.   

.....
 Yes, but I followed the instructions given in "Single NIC & Existing DHCPd" which I can't locate the link for, because I guess, I hate this wiki system.
......
 I'm no dummy, but after 4 days of struggling (and hey, I have made great progress to date) with LinuxMCE, my views about it are rather dim right now.
.....
 Yeah, I'm steamed, 'cause I spent 4 days friggin with the stuff. Believing the "demo video" I went out and spend $300-$400 on equipment to make media directors, get gyro mouses, video capture cards, IRD transceivers and remote, and gave up my ubuntu workstation to act as the core.

 Impressed? Not.


Boris

The point here is please don't start recommending modifications to the architecture until you have been here long enough to realise what this means. I recognise that you have technical competance, but that doesn't translate to experience. Andrew (Totallymaxed) is both highly experienced and a professional, and even he specifically does not recommend single NIC installations, in fact specifically says 2 NICs is better and that is what they usually use. But moreover, he says nothing about disabling or rebuilding the DHCP system.

Saying "make decision about 1 or 2 nics before you start install" sets entirely the wrong tone for newbies. This is not something that people just starting should even be thinking about unless an experienced LMCEer is prepared to support them through it. A quick search through the boards on this subject will reveal: 1) countless instances of agonising experiences of this and 2) enormous angst and irritation of experienced users trying to help others get this right when more fruitful activities could have been undertaken.

I'm not denying that there will be some instances where this is the more appropriate setup, however, that is rare - but setting this tone makes it seem like just a multi-choice option, that inevitably new users will lean towards, when the real point at issue was a <$20 NIC card... believe me, it is human nature, and is backed up by dozens of threads on the board. The recommendation should always be 2 NICs, no questions asked, until a user outlines a genuine roadblock to that approach. In such instances, I am more than happy to provide assistance as it is needed, but in practice I haven't needed to for a v long time. There are not 2 right ways, there is a right way, and an alternate way if the right way genuinely doesn't work .... genuinely not working does not include "I need to save $20 on a NIC!" You are spending at least $500 in the first place to set up a core (generally ... usually more).

Saving money on the point about wireless APs is a completely fatuous and specious argument for the same reasons! It is one thing to try to keep costs down by engineering smartly, it is another entirely to force an incompatible design/topology to achieve this end. APs are cheap, and naturally you don't need yet another NIC, Hari meant connect it to your internal switch. If you are setting up a hybrid/core, 1 MD, an orbiter or two, and perhaps even a NAS or big disks on a PC, you are already in for >$1000, saving ~$20 or so on an AP for the internal network, by trying to route a different broadcast domain across the firewall, transparently, is specious. By all means, save money by making smart decisions on hardware, but not by trying to force a square peg into a round hole.... after all, you could use your neighbour's wifi AP, and route that traffic back into your network, and save money, too!

totallymaxed

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2009, 12:25:04 am »
Thom, as I already said I am sorry. I know if I do out of the box config install I am on my own. Please do not get mad, I am not mad :). It looks that freymann was following instructions. My point is make decision about 1 or 2 nics before you start install, I did test install on single nic just to confirm that PlutoDHCP would work on other machine and it was easy, because I knew I was installing for single nic and it was install from scratch. Also, LinuxMCE install is intelligent to configure it self correctly, regardless 1 or 2 nics, but the trick is to do clean install knowing if you plan to use 1 or 2 nics. It seems to me that all these problems happen when user start to make changes after install.   

.....
 Yes, but I followed the instructions given in "Single NIC & Existing DHCPd" which I can't locate the link for, because I guess, I hate this wiki system.
......
 I'm no dummy, but after 4 days of struggling (and hey, I have made great progress to date) with LinuxMCE, my views about it are rather dim right now.
.....
 Yeah, I'm steamed, 'cause I spent 4 days friggin with the stuff. Believing the "demo video" I went out and spend $300-$400 on equipment to make media directors, get gyro mouses, video capture cards, IRD transceivers and remote, and gave up my ubuntu workstation to act as the core.

 Impressed? Not.


...look Thom and the rest of us 'lifers' here... have seen people stumble on this aspect of the system so many times...and people always seem to get 'hot under' collar when after 6secs of using LinuxMCE they decide they 'know better' and start messing with networking setups that are just plain stupid.

Of course LinuxMCE will allow you to do 'stupid' things like that... it has very little protection for the uninitiated in this respect. So to avoid the mess that normally ensues... we say 'two nics' and love it to everyone. However as you can see from the way that Web Admins network settings page is designed... single NIC setups are handled correctly... but you do have to set them up with some understanding of not just networking configs in general, but also, the design ideology inherent in LinuxMCE's design. If you do that then single NIC can and DOES work fine. Believe me I would not leave my home system like that for 2 mins if it was not...I'd be killed by my family too!!

Andrew
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Oatz

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Re: Diskless Media Directors on a 1 NIC Core, is that possible?
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2009, 05:51:36 am »
Yeah, you'll break it all.

Why do you people make this so difficult, really?

-Thom

Because LinuxMCE really isn't a great gateway compared to some other offerings. Sure it has a full Linux network system that could be locked down (probably already is), but configuring QOS, Port Triggering, and the multitude of other cool Linux networking duties is difficult for the avg user without a web interface. The LinuxMCE web interface has BOREBONES gateway configuration when compared to DDWRT or Openwrt. Sure you can put your router in front of your gateway, but if you want wireless access on your LinuxMCE network (I have 2 wireless diskless MD and wireless devices that need access to all of the media directories) you need to buy a 2nd wireless router/AP and place it behind your Linux MCE gateway.