Author Topic: Can access internet but not network or router?  (Read 3414 times)

Zaerc

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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2008, 12:13:11 pm »
If running lmce with only one nic and no dhcp is so easy then why are so many people having trouble with it?  Even more important why aren't you answering their questions and fixing their systems?

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orionsune

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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2008, 08:53:35 pm »
Well first of all, everyone that has had problems with it in the past, those posts were made in 2007

I haven't seen many recent posts regarding this problem, and the two posts that were made regarding this, I have responded to.  The first one, I actually fixed his problem.  This post, I attempted to help, but then all these "think we are right" dev's and contributors started telling me i'm wrong, when I have 5 systems working exactly as I have said, and as you guys say won't work.  I think you guys are EXTREMELY confused with yourselves.

After being confirmed correct by one of the more respected contributors, you guys are still telling me i'm wrong.  Wow, you guys are never going to get anywhere.  I guess, since i'm fed up with this community, now is a good time to say this.

I witness you guys working on some stupid ass projects.  You guys trying to broadcast games across all MD's, getting your obscure bluetooth phones to work as orbiters, etc... maybe you guys should be concentrating on some of the more common problems people are having.  Like this one for example.  Or mythtv freezing, oh wait I already took care of that. 

Back to the actual subject, since this is probably one of my last posts.  You guys are obviously very closed minded.  After a detail analysis on how automatic detection actually works, you still post condescending comments.  Are you guys blind or just self-absorbed?  How much more proof do I have to provide?


In retrospect:

Automatic PNP of network shares work perfectly with or without DHCP enabled.  Network shares will detect on both the external nic and the internal nic.  External nic pnp may require the internal nic to be in the same subnet.  I haven't tested this since I automaticlly put my internal virtual nic in the same subnet by default.

In addition to the pnp for shares working perfectly, it didn't require ANY extra configuration for this work.  I even have pnp working over a vpn link with no extra configuration.

Yes I understand cisco ip phones, or whatever devices you guys are wasting your time with, that are ip based, and do not advertise netbios names but recieve ip address from dhcp, yes in that case, dhcp would be required for PNP operation.  But now think logically, the majority of people that will use devices of this nature, are more than likely advanced users and would have no difficulty configuring their devices manually.  So with that said, I still stand my ground, for those of you that wish to keep your existing gateway/dhcp setup and wish to disabled the dhcp on the lmce box.  Yes this is very possible and have a very small affect on the operation of lmce.  I don't know where these other guys are getting their information, but they are obviously very confused and probably need to take another logical analysis of the detection scripts as I have several times before making any of these posts, to make sure I am not just crazy.  I even cited examples, man you guys are striking me as very dumb.  Well you know what they say, technical people usually lack all common sense (as observed here) and vice versa.  The trick is to maintain a balance.

To answer you question AGAIN Z, I haven't helped because if you do your own research (as I did and cited examples) you'll see everyone single one of those were made in 2007, or the user had already been lulled into a false sense of proper configuration by you guys and is happy and stable already, and I just started participating in the community last month.  So why am I going to bring back old posts like that for users who most likely don't even use lmce anymore?  Why do you ask stupid ass questions Z?  I really did respect all of you guys until I started watching you in IRC chat and how hostile and closed minded you guys are on the forums.  There are a few of you I do still respect, collinjones, hari, daniel, and some others i can't remember at the moment, you guys have shown nothing but open-minded honest analysis and resolution of just about everyones problem you know something about.  I will just refrain from participating in this community and just become like the other 90% of lmce users and just search for information on the forums to help us analyze our problems and screw everyone else.  I mean, thats basically what you guys do, so... no more posting from me.  This place is too hostile and too full of douche pickles.  And yes, you can be a programmer, network engineer, etc... and still be a fool.
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teedge77

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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2008, 09:16:10 pm »
well orionsune.....when youre right, youre right.
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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2008, 09:27:18 pm »
I would like to point something out, here.

We're not "wasting time" as you so eloquently put it...

We are catching up.

Huh?

Let me explain,

You see, Pluto has let us use this major chunk of code, most of which, simply isn't documented. So given this massive chunk of code that does so many things..how do you figure out how it works?....by building stuff for it.... which is precisely what we all are doing....

We each picked an area that we felt was fun, so we could dive our energies and concentration into what we were doing. I am building a media type...which just happens to play games...which happens to be one of the most complex undertakings of system extension in this code base. Why? Because it touches EVERYTHING, from orbiter UI (40% of the code), to the media_plugin, which comprises as much as 10% of the code. You have to make parts of the system which interact with the router, and dce devices that can run to control the media player in question. You have to touch so many parts of the system to get this to work, and we have uncovered so much in the last 3 months from our work, it's nothing short of staggering..but we had to learn it...

Hari, is writing a Mobile Orbiter, to run on java phones, which...let's see...by my last count, comprise the vast majority of compatible phones that will be released in the future, as well as what is currently here in the present... The mobile orbiter requires understanding of DCE, as well as underlying structures of other libraries, is this time wasted?

Daniel, is working on getting this system buildable for other people so that other people can join the effort to build pieces for this system... He's one of the mythtv developers as well, who has also committed patches to fix various problems in mythtv, also using suggestions from users like yourself to help get the mythtv portions working properly....is this time wasted?

but i guess, you know this already, huh?

-Thom

orionsune

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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2008, 09:30:56 pm »
teege77, man that isn't even the point... I don't care if i'm right or wrong.  I was actually expecting someone to bust out with a totally sound explination of how I was wrong... seriously, i was waiting to get shot down, which still isn't a big deal to me, i'd rather be shot down and know the proper solution than patronized and remain ignorant.  But when someone tried to shoot me down they did not even offer an explination, just that "it won't work"... and I couldn't accept that as an answer since I was currently staring at a box where it DID work.  So I started researching on why my box worked fine, and these people claim it shouldn't be.  Come to find out, both of us were wrong and right... Yes automatic pnp still works for network shares, but automatic pnp of other ip based devices not storage related will not happen.  OK, cool, so now I know and knew where to look, but then people continued to tell me it won't work and it's not a good idea etc...

I simply tried to point out the logical point of normal users will probably NEVER use those "other" ip based devices, and most likely only want the ability to play their downloaded movies on their tv from any computer/storage device in the house... and be able to weatch/record tv.  Maybe an ip camera here or there, or even one of those cisco phones... but again, if a user is gong to go that far, then most likely they are advanced users already and can handle the manual config.  Otherwise it's nothing to turn the dhcp server on for a second to configure the device then turn it back off and turn the main one back on.  I mean... logic here people...
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teedge77

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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2008, 09:33:47 pm »
i just meant the "douche pickle" part. if you look around its funny that some people will post that you shouldnt do anything against the grain....and two posts later say how much they admire people who go against it. as you well know, they also have a tendency to just say "it has to be done this way" and then give you a good "do it or get lost statement". tschak has some good points though. they were just handed this and have had to figure it out themselves. they do work really hard on doing all this and each part is just more pieces to the puzzle. its just sad you see a post from someone everyday either degrading someone or someone asking why they are being degraded when all they did was ask a question. im actually hoping you dont quit posting just because of this stuff youve been talking about. theres a few people on here that argue all the time but they seem to figure out a lot and end up being helpful to everyone. hopefully youll stick around and help some more.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 09:39:03 pm by teedge77 »
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orionsune

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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2008, 09:34:37 pm »
Ok TSCHAK, I understand completely now.  And that is the kind of unbiased non-hostile explination I expected the first time, instead of this thread turning into what it has become.

Off topic about Daniel trying to get the source functional for others to help out.  I have been trying to recompile a plugin forever, you've probably heard me talking about it in IRC, i'm going to start a new thread regarding it int he dev section later.  I didn't know that was his current focus.

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hari

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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2008, 09:42:23 pm »
I simply tried to point out the logical point of normal users will probably NEVER use those "other" ip based devices, and most likely only want the ability to play their downloaded movies on their tv from any computer/storage device in the house... and be able to weatch/record tv.  Maybe an ip camera here or there, or even one of those cisco phones... but again, if a user is gong to go that far, then most likely they are advanced users already and can handle the manual config.  Otherwise it's nothing to turn the dhcp server on for a second to configure the device then turn it back off and turn the main one back on.  I mean... logic here people...

plain wrong.. the ha system is all about networked devices. My dad can connect an IP cam to the network.. but there is no way he could even configure a single line in a device web configuration interface or such..

The DHCP plug and play was one of the first pnp subsystems of pluto (even the PNP table is named DHCP..).

Just because you don't use sth like that don't decide for others whats "wasted time"..

It's a hobby of you to run a DHCP server at home.. most users don't even get the network basics behind a single nic configuration. If sb has an existing router with dhcp, fine, plug in another nic (some bucks today). That really eases network configuration.

Until you come up with a fully comparable solution that works with all existing devices and out of the box I see no point in discussing this further or recommending this to newbie users. But even then somebody will come around and cry: it does not create objects in my active directory... and i need that for my l33t h0m3 n34w0RX

best regards,
Hari
rock your home - http://www.agocontrol.com home automation

orionsune

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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2008, 10:05:06 pm »
lol, but hari I thought everyone was entitled to their opinion.

you are claiming that most newbie users ARE going to use complicated devices like that... I doubt that very seriously.
and by the time they solve all their initial issues and start considering using other devices, they'd likely have to expertise to configure them manually anyways.

as for ip cameras, what ip camera did you use, no seriously?  Because during this discussion, I plugged my ip camera into my box and re-enabled dhcp, and it was not detected.  I didn't spend too much time with that, it could have been something I screwed up in the process, so I went my buddies house that has a vanilla install from 2 days ago, and is using dhcp... still no pnp on the ip camera.  Unfortunately this is the only ip based device I have of this nature. I really need to get this working so I have a baseline for what works for developing an alternative pnp system.  I don't want to have to buy even more stuff...

I had already started on a system and believe I have a fully working system using an EXTREMELY basic pinging for loop.  It creates a delay in detection, but I believe it will work, as soon as I get ahold of an ip device that is detected correctly by default so I have a baseline to test with, then I will share it with you guys.

For recommending to newbies?  I will continue recommending this setup to newbies with the hardcore passion of your hostility.  Why?  Because lmce boxes are inherently insecure, are bullish towards existing networks, and as I said, most newbies will never bother with other devices of the nature you claim.  I see this product mainly for home automation enthusiasts, and if you are one of those, you most likely an advanced user.  This mis-conceived notion of your about your dad not being able to set anything up, I bet he didn't find the product on his own either, you most likely introduced it to him, so I don't believe that counts.  Under normal circumstances he probably never would have found the product, downloaded it, installed it, and then know how to seek help using the forums.  This is just an assumption based on your comment about is inadequacies as a computer nerd.

Most people that have enough sense to find this forum and seek help are more than capable of using my recommended setup.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 10:12:44 pm by orionsune »
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hari

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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2008, 10:18:45 pm »
lol, but hari I thought everyone was entitled to their opinion.
of course ;)

Quote
and I still disagree, you are claiming that most users ARE going to use complicated devices like that... I doubt that very seriously.

we should do a poll and ask installers like Totallymaxed..
Today even cable tuners and AV Receivers have ethernet.. and no, they don't utilize rendevouz or sth like that..

Quote
as for ip cameras, what ip camera did he use?  Because during this discussion, I plugged my ip camera into my box and re-enabled dhcp, and it was not detected.  I didn't spend too much time with that, it could have been something I screwed up in the process, so I went my buddies house that has a vanilla install from 2 days ago, and is using dhcp... still no pnp on the ip camera.  Unfortunately this is the only ip based device I have of this nature.
what type of cam is that? maybe the mac range is new and not yet in the database.

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I had already started on a system and believe I have a fully working system using an EXTREMELY basic pinging for loop.  It creates a delay in detection, but I believe it will work, as soon as I get ahold of an ip device that is detected correctly by default so I have a baseline to test with, then I will share it with you guys.
nice..

Quote
For recommending to newbies?  I will continue recommending this setup to newbies with the hardcore passion of your hostility.  Why?  Because lmce boxes are inherently insecure, are bullish towards existing networks, and as I said, most newbies will never bother with other devices of the nature you claim.  I see this product mainly for home automation enthusiasts, and if you are one of those, you most likely an advanced user.
the whole point about lmce is home automation ;)
whats the problem with letting LMCE have its own HA network behind your existing infrastructure? The price of the second nic? I think you like to swim against the mainstream ;)

Quote
Most people that have enough sense to find this forum and seek help are more than capable of using my recommended setup.
I hope you are right but experience tells me otherwise ;)

We should do that device poll (USB, RS232, Firewire, Ethernet)..

best regards,
hari
rock your home - http://www.agocontrol.com home automation

orionsune

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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2008, 11:11:18 pm »
I like the poll...

Camera Type;
It's an AXIS 2100, I actually completely re-wrote the IP Cameras guide on the wiki to reflect how to setup IP cams under motion.  There was no clear guide on how to do that, and the IP guide that was there, was an ancient method.

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nice..
I'll let you know my progress since you once played with the idea.

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the whole point about lmce is home automation Wink
whats the problem with letting LMCE have its own HA network behind your existing infrastructure? The price of the second nic? I think you like to swim against the mainstream Wink

Ok, you are probably right, I do like swimming upstream alot of time.  But as far as why I have a problem with letting lmce be my router are probably more personal to me.  And your right, i'm assuming this for other users as well, but remember hari, i'm not pushing this on users who are already setup, i'm only suggesting this to the users with this specific issue.  It started off as only a suggestion, then turned into a debate, now it's just a long ass thread that needs to go away.

The main problems (in my case) I see with allow lmce to be your gateway are this.
I already have a stable network setup with a stable and secure gateway.  I didn't want to have to reconfigure everything on the lmce box to perform the same tasks as my already existing gateway.  There is just far too much to do, not to mention some compilation and the flavor differences (Fedora vs Ubuntu).

As I have been building this box, i've run into so many unstable issues, I didn't want to risk using it as my gateway, be at work one day, need to reference some material I have on my PC's at home, and not be able to remote in and retrieve the information because my lmce box locked up, or other malfunction.

The default setup is not very secure, and in newbie users defense, some of these people I bet still haven't changed their default passwords, and if they have their firewalls disabled, or those ports open for access, anyone can just ssh into their box and really screw stuff up.  Also, if by chance they have phpmyadmin on there or something of that nature, and port 80 is open to the outside or firewall disabled, i'll just be helping myself to their database also.  Actually, if one can ssh in i'll just put phpmyadmin on it oneself, well I am not going to go on about lmce's inherit vulnerabilities, I made my point.

But yeah, your right, as I said in another post I believe, I mentioned that lmce is about home automation and attracts mostly home automation enthusiasts, and if your a HA enthusiasts, then you problably are a slightly more advanced user than just plain newbies.  So it defeats the whole dhcp vs newbie argument thing because of that little assumption.

Quote
I hope you are right but experience tells me otherwise
experience tells me the same thing, but I have this annoying habit of having faith in humanity.  I believe all my faith does is reliably let me down.
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Zaerc

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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2008, 11:23:26 am »
...
I witness you guys working on some stupid ass projects.  You guys trying to broadcast games across all MD's, getting your obscure bluetooth phones to work as orbiters, etc... maybe you guys should be concentrating on some of the more common problems people are having.  Like this one for example.  Or mythtv freezing, oh wait I already took care of that. 
...

Nice flame bait, excuse me if I don't read the rest of your drivel.
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hari

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Re: Can access internet but not network or router?
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2008, 11:41:00 am »
...
I witness you guys working on some stupid ass projects.  You guys trying to broadcast games across all MD's, getting your obscure bluetooth phones to work as orbiters, etc... maybe you guys should be concentrating on some of the more common problems people are having.  Like this one for example.  Or mythtv freezing, oh wait I already took care of that. 
...

Nice flame bait, excuse me if I don't read the rest of your drivel.

hey, let's ignore the fact that danielk fixed race conditions regarding the remote control functionality
and did many other improvements in mythtv to increase stability with lmce. Hail orionsune, the big "-v" remover..

@orionsune: you don't even care to try the system at is was designed but mock about our priorities...
And it seems like you don't know how open source development works. People code because of personal fun or need. So if you want something fixed you should ask nicely if you can't do it yourself. Don't bash about other peoples projects even if there is no use for you. But hey, you can't even think about ethernet devices for LMCE, so how could you understand the orbiter concept..

Go install some dhcp servers..

Hari
rock your home - http://www.agocontrol.com home automation