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Dianemo-Rpi2 - How will Licensing Work After Launch?
totallymaxed:
Dianemo-Rpi2 for Raspberry-Pi2 LicensingA new Era in Smart Home Technology--Preview License Holders Get Free 'Lifetime' Subscriptions--
Here is how licensing will broadly work after launch:
We're still very much in the planning phase on licensing, but our current sense is that we may go with a license that works something like this:
* Dianemo-Rpi2 Base (License GPL)- This is the base Dianemo-Rpi2 software that will be downloadable for free by anyone. Includes access to our online user manual
* Dianemo-Rpi2 Developer Subscription (around $8 USD per month) - Your subscription will include access to our Developer Support Forum, Developer Support Services, ability to add Media Directors to your installations, access to our exclusive Plugin Extensions and updates + remote support capability to your customers systems (if you have any of course). You will receive a license key with your subscription. This is targeted at Plugin developers, Smart Home Consultants and anyone customising Dianemo-Rpi2 for end usersEssentially the Dianemo-Rpi2 Preview is equivalent to the Dianemo-Rpi2 Base software + 'Developer' subscription level above. So after launch anyone can download the basic system for free. Think of it like downloading Wordpress and installing it on your own hardware. Those that want our direct technical support, access to our special Dianemo Plugin library (which will grow over time) and remote access capability can pay an annual subscription (anyone can subscribe but the target audience is primarily developers, Smart Home installers etc - pricing is still being decided but will work out to less than $8 USD per month.).
We think this subscription model will work well for anyone involved in the Dianemo-Rpi2 community. Anyone can get a basic system setup for just the hardware costs and a free download, which is the DIY type of user. If a DIY type users want's access to the subscription service then they can subscribe for a year while they get their system into shape, then cancel their subscription - their system will continue to work as is and will receive our base system updates. But a DIY type user could also find a Dianemo-Rpi2 installer or consultant and have them configure and setup their system for them too.
For those who want to develop plugins, or build a consulting business around Dianemo-Rpi2, they can pay for a yearly subscription that will allow them to get support from us through the Forum, develop their own Plugins to extend the base system, access to our exclusive Plugin Extensions and Remote Access capability to any customer systems they install or advise on (and they can install our exclusive Plugin Extensions on their customer systems at no additional cost either).
The great news is to say thank you to all Dianemo-Rpi2 Preview license holders they will get the developer subscription service for free once it launches, for as long as we make it available - we think this is an incredible deal!
All the best
Andy
phenigma:
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on April 17, 2015, 04:22:32 pm ---Dianemo-Rpi2 for Raspberry-Pi2 LicensingA new Era in Smart Home Technology--Preview License Holders Get Free 'Lifetime' Subscriptions--
Here is how licensing will broadly work after launch:
--- End quote ---
Andy, since this is a legal binding contract (licensing agreement), if I pay you monies, can you please update us on the 'broad' terms of your licensing agreement so I am legally informed prior to purchase?
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on April 17, 2015, 04:22:32 pm ---We're still very much in the planning phase on licensing, but our current sense is that we may go with a license that works something like this:
* Dianemo-Rpi2 Base (License GPL)- This is the base Dianemo-Rpi2 software that will be downloadable for free by anyone. Includes access to our online user manual
* Dianemo-Rpi2 Developer Subscription (around $8 USD per month) - Your subscription will include access to our Developer Support Forum, Developer Support Services, ability to add Media Directors to your installations, access to our exclusive Plugin Extensions and updates + remote support capability to your customers systems (if you have any of course). You will receive a license key with your subscription. This is targeted at Plugin developers, Smart Home Consultants and anyone customising Dianemo-Rpi2 for end users
--- End quote ---
Planning phase of the license but pay us now... Right. I've heard that before. Can you elaborate on which (exactly) portions of your release will be GPL and what capabilities the 'base' Dianemo-Rpi2 includes? This is very ambiguous and leaves room for you to decide, after you have solicited monies from people, which portions you may release as GPL and which not. Since the majority of the base of the Dianemo system is GPL (as LinuxMCE is) I'm not sure what the difference is and when/if you intend to provide source for those GPL portions.
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on April 17, 2015, 04:22:32 pm ---Essentially the Dianemo-Rpi2 Preview is equivalent to the Dianemo-Rpi2 Base software + 'Developer' subscription level above. So after launch anyone can download the basic system for free. Think of it like downloading Wordpress and installing it on your own hardware. Those that want our direct technical
--- End quote ---
Do 'developers' get access to source code that non-'developers' would not have access to?
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on April 17, 2015, 04:22:32 pm ---For those who want to develop plugins, or build a consulting business around Dianemo-Rpi2, they can pay for a yearly subscription that will allow them to get support from us through the Forum, develop their own Plugins to extend the base system, access to our exclusive Plugin Extensions and Remote Access capability to any customer systems they install or advise on (and they can install our exclusive Plugin Extensions on their customer systems at no additional cost either).
--- End quote ---
I'm sorry. Did I just read that correctly. People will have to pay for support through this 'free' forum? WTF? I do not agree with this myself. Andrew do you intend to sponsor the forums and pay for the running of the forum to help with your 'paid' support that you will provide?
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on April 17, 2015, 04:22:32 pm ---The great news is to say thank you to all Dianemo-Rpi2 Preview license holders they will get the developer subscription service for free once it launches, for as long as we make it available - we think this is an incredible deal!
--- End quote ---
For you, yes it appears to be. I really love what you're doing (from a commercial standpoint). But to do it on the back of OSS and a free support forum appears shady to me.
Andy please expressly describe the exactly legal specifications of the license I would pay for. Thank you.
All the best
Jason
totallymaxed:
Hi Jason,
As ever you seem to always take an aggressive stance whenever you post something relating to Dianemo. You seem to have an inherent dislike for anything we do or say. All I will say is that we've been involved with LinuxMCE as individuals, and as a company since the very moment this forum was created.
I believe we have demonstrated to everyone over the years here that we are honest and honourable, and we do what we say. We're not perfect of course, but I believe people know that we always strive to do the right 'thing' - you can look through the forums and see that I believe.
I have tried to respond to your comments below;
Your wrote;
--- Quote ---Planning phase of the license but pay us now... Right. I've heard that before. Can you elaborate on which (exactly) portions of your release will be GPL and what capabilities the 'base' Dianemo-Rpi2 includes? This is very ambiguous and leaves room for you to decide, after you have solicited monies from people, which portions you may release as GPL and which not. Since the majority of the base of the Dianemo system is GPL (as LinuxMCE is) I'm not sure what the difference is and when/if you intend to provide source for those GPL portions.
--- End quote ---
Dianemo-Rpi2 Base is the whole system and source code will be provided under the GPL.
You wrote;
--- Quote ---Do 'developers' get access to source code that non-'developers' would not have access to?
--- End quote ---
If you subscribe to our proposed Dianemo-Rpi2 Developer Subscription site then yes you will get access to source code that is not available to non-subscribers. But that source code will only be for the Plugin extensions we provide as part of the subscription. The plugins we provide to subscribers (the way to extend the base system with custom code) will likely be GPL too - we are still considering this. But in any case source code will be provided to subscribers for our Plugins.
You wrote;
--- Quote ---I'm sorry. Did I just read that correctly. People will have to pay for support through this 'free' forum? WTF? I do not agree with this myself. Andrew do you intend to sponsor the forums and pay for the running of the forum to help with your 'paid' support that you will provide?
--- End quote ---
The Dianemo-Rpi2 Developer Forum will be hosted on our servers and not here. Yes developers who want to participate in our Dianemo-Rpi2 Developer forum will need to subscribe. As we will not be charging for a license to use Dianemo-Rpi2 Base this is how we will generate revenue from Dianemo-Rpi2. Developers will get access to our direct support and participation, our Plugin library and help/support with any Plugin code they are developing themselves.
We think this arrangement will work well for all concerned. Anyone will be able to download Dianemo-Rpi2 base and install it for free - and get a working system from it too. These people will be the majority of the user base, ordinary users who just want to get a basic system working. However if any of those ordinary users wish to dig a little deeper into Dianemo-Rpi2 then they can subscribe to our Forum and get access to all its resources - for about $96 USD per year. So an ordinary user might subscribe for a year simply while they were getting their system in shape. They can cancel their subscription after a year, and never pay us another cent, and they can keep and use any Plugins they downloaded from our library too. So in that scenario their system has cost them just $96.
Alternatively that ordinary user could contact any of the 3rd part Developers who will be subscribers to our Forum and have them customise their Dianemo-Rpi2 system for them - that would be an arrangement between them and we would not be involved in anyway.
Your wrote;
--- Quote ---I really love what you're doing (from a commercial standpoint). But to do it on the back of OSS and a free support forum appears shady to me.
--- End quote ---
I can't see anything shady at all. We are still evolving our plans, but anyone reading this or that has had any dealings with us, or me, will know we are in no way 'shady'. As I said above the Dianemo-Rpi2 Developer Forum will be hosted on our servers and not here. Anyone who purchases a Dianemo-Rpi2 Preview license currently will get a perpetual membership (at zero cost) to our Dianemo-Rpi2 Developer Forum when it goes live. This is what their payment is really for as Dianemo-Rpi2 Base will be free and available to anyone.
Dianemo X86 will be licensed as it is now (ie a one time license fee) and support will continue to be located here for software only customers as now, as there will continue to be a considerable commonality of code between Dianemo X86 & LinuxMCE.
Andy
phenigma:
Hi Andrew, thank you for your response I appreciate it greatly,
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on May 02, 2015, 02:38:41 pm ---Hi Jason,
As ever you seem to always take an aggressive stance whenever you post something relating to Dianemo. You seem to have an inherent dislike for anything we do or say.
--- End quote ---
Yes I have been a little agressive, I will tone that down as it is not helpfull. It is not that I have an inherent dislike of what you do or say, in fact I like your product (or what I know of it) and have respect for you, if I didn't non of this would matter to me. Hopefully I can explain my position through this response.
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on May 02, 2015, 02:38:41 pm ---All I will say is that we've been involved with LinuxMCE as individuals, and as a company since the very moment this forum was created.
--- End quote ---
I knew CHT. Who are you now? What are you now? Who is "we" now? You have changed your addresses to a personal consulting address, not your CHT address. Can you explain to me/others what the current position you hold is and what the company you currently represent? CHT or some consulting company or both? What is your consulting company's relation to CHT? I am at a complete loss as to *whom* you actually represent now.
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on May 02, 2015, 02:38:41 pm ---I believe we have demonstrated to everyone over the years here that we are honest and honourable, and we do what we say. We're not perfect of course, but I believe people know that we always strive to do the right 'thing' - you can look through the forums and see that I believe.
--- End quote ---
Usually you are honest and honourable. I understand you have commercial interests and I will pull up specific references from the forum here if you require it, our search sucks and that will take more time than I have at the moment, let me know and I will gladly pull specific references for you. You have *mostly* supported your customers extremely well, with exceptions. Uplink *does* provide some bug fixes to LinuxMCE as he encounters those in the core architecture, this is rare but we are all very, very thankful for that.
You have not always supported all of your clients. If you search the forum you will find an example of a client that have gone unanswered for weeks and left to 'figure it out on there own'. In another case you dropped support for a method of using portions of your system, and expressed to your client that 'They could create their own user interface to replace the feature you had removed'. This is very poor form in my opinion and although you do quite well supporting most of your clients this stands out as an utter embarassment. I would be very concerned about what features you may deprecate/obsolete without support in the future.
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on May 02, 2015, 02:38:41 pm ---I believe we have demonstrated to everyone over the years here that we are honest and honourable, and we do what we say. We're not perfect of course, but I believe people know that we always strive to do the right 'thing' - you can look through the forums and see that I believe.
--- End quote ---
I agree that you go out of your way to assist most of your clients. I do not agree that you have been an entirely supportive member of the LinuxMCE community. There are a few points to support this, the first is: You have promised to push features to LMCE in the past and then NOT done that. This is important to me in regards to your current promise to release Dianemo RPi2 Base entirely GPL. Besides that, you have promised code would be released to the community as GPL code for some features or enhancements in the past and this has not happened in all cases. Don't get me wrong, some things have been pushed into LMCE (weborbiter & web rpc come to mind immediately.) But the upnp code that you promised arrived neither in LMCE nor in GPL code as you promised. Promising GPL code and not delivering it when the code is finished, regardless of compatibility, is *really* bad form in my books, a lot of community users were counting on you and you did not come through. I know Dianemo handles some things differently (including some methods of media delivery), but you said the code would be released as GPL. It has not been. This is very dissappointing from an OSS standpoint and, moreso, from your current development position of suggesting you are *about* to release some GPL code. The community may have been able to port the code to LinuxMCE if you had released it.
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on May 02, 2015, 02:38:41 pm ---You wrote;
The Dianemo-Rpi2 Developer Forum will be hosted on our servers and not here. Yes developers who want to participate in our Dianemo-Rpi2 Developer forum will need to subscribe. As we will not be charging for a license to use Dianemo-Rpi2 Base this is how we will generate revenue from Dianemo-Rpi2. Developers will get access to our direct support and participation, our Plugin library and help/support with any Plugin code they are developing themselves.
--- End quote ---
Sounds interesting. Thank you for clarifying that your paid support is not through the free LinuxMCE forum. I am more that certain that donations would still be appreciated to help the community continue to support running the LinuxMCE servers.
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on May 02, 2015, 02:38:41 pm ---We think this arrangement will work well for all concerned. Anyone will be able to download Dianemo-Rpi2 base and install it for free - and get a working system from it too. These people will be the majority of the user base, ordinary users who just want to get a basic system working. However if any of those ordinary users wish to dig a little deeper into Dianemo-Rpi2 then they can subscribe to our Forum and get access to all its resources - for about $96 USD per year. So an ordinary user might subscribe for a year simply while they were getting their system in shape. They can cancel their subscription after a year, and never pay us another cent, and they can keep and use any Plugins they downloaded from our library too. So in that scenario their system has cost them just $96.
--- End quote ---
Interesting again.
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on May 02, 2015, 02:38:41 pm ---Alternatively that ordinary user could contact any of the 3rd part Developers who will be subscribers to our Forum and have them customise their Dianemo-Rpi2 system for them - that would be an arrangement between them and we would not be involved in anyway.
--- End quote ---
Again, interesting. Creating a developer network is a wonderful way to distribute the software further than just you can. Great idea!
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on May 02, 2015, 02:38:41 pm ---Your wrote;
I can't see anything shady at all. We are still evolving our plans, but anyone reading this or that has had any dealings with us, or me, will know we are in no way 'shady'. As I said above the Dianemo-Rpi2 Developer Forum will be hosted on our servers and not here. Anyone who purchases a Dianemo-Rpi2 Preview license currently will get a perpetual membership (at zero cost) to our Dianemo-Rpi2 Developer Forum when it goes live. This is what their payment is really for as Dianemo-Rpi2 Base will be free and available to anyone.
--- End quote ---
Thank you, that clarifies things further. My 'shady' comment is in regards to your soliciting funds without even a licensing agreement, or a product. That is 'shady' imho.
--- Quote from: totallymaxed on May 02, 2015, 02:38:41 pm ---Dianemo X86 will be licensed as it is now (ie a one time license fee) and support will continue to be located here for software only customers as now, as there will continue to be a considerable commonality of code between Dianemo X86 & LinuxMCE.
Andy
--- End quote ---
I think it is wonderful that you will continue to support clients through the LinuxMCE forum! My issue was with you insinuating that 'paid' support would be through the LMCE forum. Clarity is good.
Andrew, Dianemo is built on GPL code, all plug-ins and other code created using DCEGen templates would also be GPL'd. There are some pieces of Dianemo that were not created with DCEGen, and also not modifications of existing code. However, much of the code is based on GPL'd Pluto code or templates created with DCEGen, making them also GPL'd.
Andrew you alienated the LinuxMCE community by launching a Kickstarter campaign to 'GPL' code that is vastly already GPL code. You did not communicate with the LinuxMCE developers (at all) about your intentions, that you were contemplating such a maneuver, or to seek assistance. Andrew, Dianemo is to LMCE like Android is to the Linux kernel, a fork; one that could be brought back into mainline with some work. You have demonstrated clearly through these actions that you do not wish to work with the LinuxMCE community. I am severely dissappointed in that.
Andrew a couple years ago (previous to myself being a primary developer) a LinuxMCE policy was created in relation to devices or items that persons were claiming to be LinuxMCE compatible. The jist of it is that it would be the LinuxMCE developer community that would decide to grant a LinuxMCE compatible description to a device, and the ability to use the logo, or not. You have commercially released a product (an rpi cec device iirc) that you claim to be compatible with LinuxMCE. No LinuxMCE developer has ever evaluated your product, nor have you ever provided a Device Template (or other driver) that would make your device compatible with LinuxMCE. I take serious offence to your assumption that you do not have to abide by the same requirements and responsibilities of any other developer whom wishes to produce a stand-alone product and claim it is LinuxMCE compatible. I still maintain that the product in question is *not* compatible with LinuxMCE. It *could* be, but no effort has been expended to make that happen. Again, there has been no contact with LinuxMCE developers for the right to claim LinuxMCE compatible.
Andrew, you don't know me well but I am one of the primary developers of LinuxMCE, and I have been for a few years now. You are not involved in IRC chats with LinuxMCE developers so you would not really have that knowledge. You try very hard to plug Dianemo in the forums (and I would not fault you for this except...) You took over the non-commerial posting 'Users' section for nearly 2wks with posts before moving back to the Marketplace section where all commercial posts are required to be, that was completely ignorant of the community and not indicative of someone whom is a part of it. As a volunteer developer, that spends a significant amount of time trying to help users and further LinuxMCE, your actions seem predatory and it is unfortunate that those actions have created that perception to me. It would be great if you re-joined the LinuxMCE developer community and worked with us.
I hope that I have explained my position to you and the (now long) history that has created that position. I *do* respect you greatly Andrew, you work very hard and seem dedicated. I would like the community to build back up from both sides. To that end:
Since your intention is to release the Dianemo RPi2 code as GPL and since Dianemo is already vastly GPL code: I am formally asking you to 'make available' (and continue to make available) all Dianemo x86 code based on GPL'd code, modified from GPL'd code or created with a DCEGen template (which creates GPL'd code). Then let's talk as a community about how we can move forward together. That, imho, would benefit all parties.
Thank you Andrew, these are my feelings and perceptions as a consumer and developer. In no way do my opinions represent any other LinuxMCE developer. I sincerely hope that my responses and explanations of my position are constructive for discussion.
Jason
Esperanto:
nice post Jason. I also think that working together means better code and a better product for everyone. And probably more money for the commercial side.
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