Author Topic: Single NIC installation  (Read 14557 times)

bobpaul

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2007, 06:15:31 am »
The problem with the 2 router method (your existing router and the core system as a router with DHCP services enabled on the internal network with effectively a DMZ in between) is that the most people have a wireless router as their existing router.  This means that wireless devices get their IP addresses assigned by your original router in the DMZ and so LMCE never sees them. 

This is entirely false. If you turn off DHCP on your wireless router, wireless clients will receive DHCP from whichever client on the network (linux MCE?) that's supplying that information. When you turn off DHCP on the wireless router, it simply routes packets between the WAN, LAN, and WLAN ports as necessary. If you plug the wireless router into your network without using the WAN side and disable DHCP then it will function essentially as an access point only. I've yet to encounter a device that does not allow this.

ant_tm

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2007, 08:27:39 am »
OK - so you are saying that if a wireless access point is the external router (with say an internal subnet of 192.168.1.0/24) with DHCP services turned off and the LMCE server is an internal router with an external IP set manually to say 192.168.1.100 and an internal IP range of 192.168.81.0/24 and that DHCP services on LMCE is configured to give IP's in the range of (for example) 192.168.81.5-192.168.81.250 then when a wireless device connects to the network the wireless router will forward the request out to it's internal network (here I agree) and the LMCE box will respond with an IP address ?  Isn't that IP address going to be in the 192.168.81.0/24 range and hence not function correctly ?

Maybe there is an option for the DHCP to also handle ranges on its external card but I do not see it in the configuration options on the Admin website.  Maybe it does it by default without giving any configuration option (outside of file editing) ?  That would be rather rude - but I am sure that is not the case because the installation procedures suggest you leave the DHCP turned on on your original router.

I know that you could turn the wireless router into an AP and make the LMCE your external router but if it ain't broke why fix it - especially if you are just trying LMCE to see if it fits your needs.  I still say that a 1 port configuration with DHCP services would suit everyone a lot better than this mechanism.  Most people who are going to try LMCE are going to have an infrastructure in place and switching off their existing DHCP service is a lot easier than what you have to go through to make this work (given that we have existing firewall rules etc on our existing router to make our applications work).

The problem with the 2 router method (your existing router and the core system as a router with DHCP services enabled on the internal network with effectively a DMZ in between) is that the most people have a wireless router as their existing router.  This means that wireless devices get their IP addresses assigned by your original router in the DMZ and so LMCE never sees them. 

This is entirely false. If you turn off DHCP on your wireless router, wireless clients will receive DHCP from whichever client on the network (linux MCE?) that's supplying that information. When you turn off DHCP on the wireless router, it simply routes packets between the WAN, LAN, and WLAN ports as necessary. If you plug the wireless router into your network without using the WAN side and disable DHCP then it will function essentially as an access point only. I've yet to encounter a device that does not allow this.

Zaerc

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2007, 09:21:34 am »
OK - so you are saying that if a wireless access point is the external router (with say an internal subnet of 192.168.1.0/24) with DHCP services turned off and the LMCE server is an internal router with an external IP set manually to say 192.168.1.100 and an internal IP range of 192.168.81.0/24 and that DHCP services on LMCE is configured to give IP's in the range of (for example) 192.168.81.5-192.168.81.250 then when a wireless device connects to the network the wireless router will forward the request out to it's internal network (here I agree) and the LMCE box will respond with an IP address ?  Isn't that IP address going to be in the 192.168.81.0/24 range and hence not function correctly ?

Maybe there is an option for the DHCP to also handle ranges on its external card but I do not see it in the configuration options on the Admin website.  Maybe it does it by default without giving any configuration option (outside of file editing) ?  That would be rather rude - but I am sure that is not the case because the installation procedures suggest you leave the DHCP turned on on your original router.

I know that you could turn the wireless router into an AP and make the LMCE your external router but if it ain't broke why fix it - especially if you are just trying LMCE to see if it fits your needs.  I still say that a 1 port configuration with DHCP services would suit everyone a lot better than this mechanism.  Most people who are going to try LMCE are going to have an infrastructure in place and switching off their existing DHCP service is a lot easier than what you have to go through to make this work (given that we have existing firewall rules etc on our existing router to make our applications work).


So basicly you're saying that everything needs to be changed because some people have no idea what they are doing?  This "mechanism" suits me just fine so I honestly don't agree with that being a shortcoming in the design of LMCE at all.

If you want to use things in a way they weren't intended you're going to have to put in at least some extra effort, there is nothing new (or even specific to LMCE) about that...
"Change is inevitable. Progress is optional."
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ant_tm

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2007, 02:08:31 pm »
Sheesh - here I thought that that this was the "feature request" channel - not the "our application is so * perfect that if you want to suggest something you are a **" channel.

Personally I am prepared to work through the additional complexities this provides because I think the goal is worth while.  And I would love to see this project grow to the point that noone would consider another product/project.  I am just saying that if a broader acceptance of the product is desired then it might help to an ***option*** to have the core work along the same plug and play theme - because right now it is nowhere near being able to plug a LMCE black box into an existing home network and have it perform anything like it's capable.

So basicly you're saying that everything needs to be changed because some people have no idea what they are doing?  This "mechanism" suits me just fine so I honestly don't agree with that being a shortcoming in the design of LMCE at all.

If you want to use things in a way they weren't intended you're going to have to put in at least some extra effort, there is nothing new (or even specific to LMCE) about that...


bobpaul

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2007, 01:25:17 pm »
OK - so you are saying that if a wireless access point is the external router (with say an internal subnet of 192.168.1.0/24) with DHCP services turned off and the LMCE server is an internal router with an external IP set manually to say 192.168.1.100 and an internal IP range of 192.168.81.0/24 and that DHCP services on LMCE is configured to give IP's in the range of (for example) 192.168.81.5-192.168.81.250 then when a wireless device connects to the network the wireless router will forward the request out to it's internal network (here I agree) and the LMCE box will respond with an IP address ?  Isn't that IP address going to be in the 192.168.81.0/24 range and hence not function correctly ?

No. I was replying to someone who stated that you couldn't use a wireless router and do a 2 nic installation of LinuxMCE. That is, you have your cable modem plugged into LinuxMCE and another NIC on linux MCE running to a LAN port on your router. This works fine provided you have DHCP turned off on the router.

If you really want to do a single NIC installation of LinuxMCE, please see the other posts I made in this thread where I describe the configuration necessary to have an external wireless router but DHCP handled by a single NIC LinuxMCE rather than the router. I completely agree this is not straight forward enough and should be supported by the installer.

The point of my comment is that wireless routers can be used quite simply with LinuxMCE, esp if you use LinuxMCE in a 2+nic configuration as your primary router. Wireless is by no means incompatible.

Zaerc

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2007, 03:14:07 pm »
I completely agree this is not straight forward enough and should be supported by the installer.

No it shouldn't.  The intended way to set it up is with 2 network cards.  I see no need at all to change the installer merely because the proper setup doesn't suit a few people that are only interested in half the features.
"Change is inevitable. Progress is optional."
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ant_tm

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2007, 05:36:49 pm »
Zaerc - the day that LMCE offers all the features of a modern home router (or even better - IPCOP) all configured from the web interface (ie no manual file editing) then I'd be happy to suggest to people to drop kick their existing router out the window and put in a LMCE core as their router.  It still would not be as "Plug and Play" as "switch off DHCP service on your existing router and install LMCE with single network card with DHCP server enabled" but I could make a better arguement for it than "I'm smart enough to so it and so should you".

The simple facts;
  • 2 router/firewalls for an average home is ludicrous (I have about 30 IP addressable devices in my house and for me it would be ludicrous)
  • LMCE firewall configuration (from web interface) is not up to the standard of a modern home router/firewall (it's a good start though)
  • Average user is going to go into convulsions if you show them a man page for iptables
  • Having a installer supported configuration for 1 network card with DHCP server enabled would make LMCE more plug and play

I completely agree this is not straight forward enough and should be supported by the installer.

No it shouldn't.  The intended way to set it up is with 2 network cards.  I see no need at all to change the installer merely because the proper setup doesn't suit a few people that are only interested in half the features.

bobpaul

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2007, 07:39:26 pm »
No it shouldn't.  The intended way to set it up is with 2 network cards.  I see no need at all to change the installer merely because the proper setup doesn't suit a few people that are only interested in half the features.

The promotional videos all make it sound like one can easily take advantage of all sorts of extra hardware if they happen to have it, but if they don't have it LinuxMCE will fallback gracefully with as much functionality as possible given the circumstances. I don't have two NICs, nor do I have any great intention of running a second drop to the living room. (I'm running a combined front/backend, which is a recommended configuration.) My choice is either to add a wireless link to the local network (so now I'll be quite bandwidth limited as far as stream to my other machines), run an unsightly cable across the floor and around the house, or go through the hassle of running a second cable through the walls. Nice.

Zaerc

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2007, 08:14:17 pm »
Somehow I'm still not convinced, what was the exact "problem" again? 

"Change is inevitable. Progress is optional."
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dopey

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2007, 03:32:57 am »
What I think Zarec is saying is the two NIC installation is at the very heart of LinuxMCE. Not having LinuxMCE as the DHCP router removes more functionality then most of the users are willing to except. Your argument that LinuxMCE is supposed to scale back gracefully is flawed. Lets say you didn't have a CPU, you just couldn't run LinuxMCE. There are some components that's just required, period.

Having said that, there are ways to have a single NIC installation and still have the core be the DHCP server with another router acting as the internet gateway. If anything should go in the install, it should be that. There is really no easy way to put that in a wizard though. You could certainly try...

ant_tm

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2007, 05:32:35 am »
I am certain that noone ever reads forum entries before they reply to them.  Please look back and see phrases like "installer supported configuration for 1 network card with DHCP server" (I wish I had noticed the glow function before :)  Yes DHCP server is a primary part of the core that it needs in order to function correctly and yet there is the option to turn it off (and hence cripple the system).  2 nic cards is not a necessary part of the system - the only functionality I can see that running on 1 nic would limit is some mention of the QA capabilities to assign higher priority to the VOIP etc.  My router and about 50% of modern home routers already do that if requested and many think that such QA rules are a waste of bandwidth anyhow (there certainly is an overhead).

The issues with the 2 nic mechanism have been mentioned at least twice each in this thread - the base issue is complexity: whether compexity in cabling (multiple cable runs or a switch in the living room), complexity in network design (wireless router on the edge of the home network will not allow wireless clients to participate), complexity of configuration (using bash and man iptables to manage more complex firewall configuration).

Life would be much easier if you could just disable to DHCP service on your existing router (or internal server) and drop your LMCE onto the network with a standard installation with 1 nic.  Life would be good :)

Zaerc

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2007, 11:15:25 am »
Maybe you should read this thread again, there are several people saying that construction works just fine but requires some extra setup.

I still see no deficiency in the installer at all.  Having to do some extra configuration simply because you chose not to follow the recommended setup is not really an argument. 
"Change is inevitable. Progress is optional."
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ant_tm

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2007, 12:53:55 pm »
 ::)

Zaerc - I am one of the ones that said it works with extra setup - it's the amount of extra setup that is at issue - you really are a twit and I cannot be bothered with you.  You are not worth the wear and tear on my fingertips.

  • I chose not mangle my existing network to try out LMCE, nor to decrease it's security
  • I chose to lend my words to someone else who was thinking the same way I was
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  • I choose to format my LMCE test box and cancel my forum membership - I will try again in a years time
  • I choose to tell anyone who is interested in LMCE that they should wait


teedge77

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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2007, 03:42:05 pm »
OK - so you are saying that if a wireless access point is the external router (with say an internal subnet of 192.168.1.0/24) with DHCP services turned off and the LMCE server is an internal router with an external IP set manually to say 192.168.1.100 and an internal IP range of 192.168.81.0/24 and that DHCP services on LMCE is configured to give IP's in the range of (for example) 192.168.81.5-192.168.81.250 then when a wireless device connects to the network the wireless router will forward the request out to it's internal network (here I agree) and the LMCE box will respond with an IP address ?  Isn't that IP address going to be in the 192.168.81.0/24 range and hence not function correctly ?
Quote


its not even necessary to have it on a separate subnet. all my stuff is on the 192.168.1.X and with one NIC. It just shows up as

eth0:192.168.1.215
eth0:0 192.168.1.63

why is that so hard? theres no difficulty whatsoever in making a single NIC installation. You're all putting way too much thought into it. Obviously it isnt a gateway with one NIC.....its not going to be doing any routing...why do you need separate subnets?? youll just have to ways to get to it...well....much more...dcerouter...localhost...the ips...and when it hands out dhcp ....its all on the same network as everything else. it takes two seconds in the webadmin to change it all and youre done.
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Re: Single NIC installation
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2007, 06:20:18 pm »
Maybe you should read this thread again, there are several people saying that construction works just fine but requires some extra setup.

I still see no deficiency in the installer at all.  Having to do some extra configuration simply because you chose not to follow the recommended setup is not really an argument. 


I agree. The lmce networking setup/options work as they are perfectly well for either a 2 NIC or single NIC config. Nothing in our opinion needs changing there. Most of our installations are single NIC installs but thats for the most part to allow us to build compact Core's without the need for adding a PCI card.

So once and for all ... you already have all the config options you need. Honest you really do!
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