Author Topic: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?  (Read 5221 times)

frustrated

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OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« on: August 21, 2011, 02:01:19 am »
I know this is free software and you all put in a lot of time, BUT...

You really should warn people that this is very unstable, inconsistent, and difficult software BEFORE they waste time downloading and installing this LinuxMCE.

There are some really wonderful things in LinuxMCE that I would love to use, but can’t even get the installation/AVwizard to complete consistently without errors.  I have wasted untold number of hours doing repeated installations following severely out of date Wiki instructions.  I have had inconsistent results doing the exact same install.  How can that be?

I know that my post will almost certainly be deleted.  I hope you read all the way through before doing so.

I have read through the forums and found people who have had the same issues that I have had, and on many, no one has responded with help.  I guess that poor sole gave up like I'm doing too.  I have read the Wiki entries which are so far out of date, it's laughable.  I read where someone is seeking help and some other moron suggests that they use the 10.04 – which is even more unstable than 8.04 and isn’t even available on the download page.  What is it with this stuff?

There are multiple 8.04 versions to install, but you have to dig through forum posts to know which one to install.  Install the wrong one and you waste even more time!  Couldn’t the download page just say which one is stable?  Is it really that complex?

The software hangs at different points especially background tasks during the AVWizard.  Speaking of the AVWizard, why on earth do the background tasks display their status right on top of the AVWizard?  Do you know how difficult it is to read the top of the page?

Why can’t the AVWizard just be something the user clicks on (same with the Admin interface?)  Why do they have to be background started processes?  After you get Ubuntu installed, you have to click (or incorrectly double-click as the install Wiki pages tells you) on the LinuxMCE icon (why isn’t it called LinuxMCE Install which would be more obvious.)

It’s pretty obvious to me that when you are doing builds, no one is actually following a checklist which includes following the installation instructions to make sure they still are correct.  I’m sure that most of you are so deep into LinuxMCE that you never follow any of the Wiki.  Why aren’t there installation instructions on the download page?

Why do you have to make this so difficult?  My God, I have never, ever seen such out of date stuff in my life.  8.04 isn’t even released and Ubuntu 8.04 is so far out of support.  Why even release 8.04?  Put all of your energy into 10.04!

I would really love to help, but I fear that I would waste even more time out of my life and still not get anywhere.  I have past UNIX/Linux experience, but I pity the poor fool who has none as still struggles through to a fruitless end!

I love it when someone has a question and someone else points them to user Wiki pages to see who else uses a particular piece of hardware.  You can tell these other folks must have given up because their installation Wiki pages haven’t been changed in 5 years.

I’m really trying to not be as critical as I feel I should.  You are all so proud and put out suspicious videos on YouTube showing how easy it is to install.  IT’S NOT!  Anytime anyone dares to make a critical suggestion, they get dumped on – “did you pay anything for this?”  Of course not, we all know that if someone actually put out good money for this, there would be a lawsuit for sure using the YouTube videos of evidence of fraud.

I understand that with all of the complexities coupled with lots of types of hardware, it makes it very difficult.  You really should tell people to forget using any advanced video card, just stick with VGA until you get it all working.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 02:07:24 am by frustrated »

golgoj4

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 02:35:34 am »
Let me reply.

FUCK YOU!!! I strenuously object to that statement! Clearly, this isnt for you. There is so much misinformation in your post im ok with such a simplistic response. Seriously, yet another crybaby who thinks we work for him. Fraud? Rofl. You are truly clueless.  

Thanks, and I hope you have a nice day. Well, not really. :)

-langston ball aka 'head of the irrational responses dept'.

Also, I hope your post is stickied as a testament to your ignorance.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 11:22:47 am by golgoj4 »
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golgoj4

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2011, 02:46:07 am »
http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php/topic,11552.msg80363.html#msg80363


That thread is an example of users coming together to try and solved a perceived deficiency, not crying about it. So yeah, my initial response (which I stand by) is harsh, but zomg it aint hard to chip in some documentation is it now??!?!? Its a two way street and frankly your experience means nothing if its not going to be leveraged in an intelligent manner. OMG, why do you make this so difficult? is not such a manner. PM me an address to send a clue to.

Good Day Sir.
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frustrated

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2011, 03:12:35 am »
Let me reply.

FUCK YOU!!! Clearly, this isnt for you. There is so much misinformation in your post im ok with such a simplistic response. Seriously, yet another crybaby who thinks we work for him. Fraud? Rofl. You are truly clueless. 

Thanks, and I hope you have a nice day. Well, not really. :)

-langston ball aka 'head of the irrational responses dept'.

Also, I hope your post is stickied as a testament to your ignorance.

Your response is beyond the caliber I expected.  "Yet another crybaby" is a telling phrase that you should reexamine!  If there are this many "crybabies," maybe you're doing something wrong just as I suspected.

Your use of foul language in this situation shows your character too well!  I was civil, can't you be as well?  You’re not a very good representation of the other fine people who I know work hard.

I know that my post was born out of frustration and wasn’t as coherent as I might want, but it is clear that you didn’t take anything positive away from what I had to say.  You have to admit, in every complaint a person hears, there is a bit of useful information that can make a process/product/service better.  I’m sorry you couldn’t see that.

Again, I would like to participate to make the solution better, but with a mouth like your’s, who wants to?  You certainly shouldn’t be in the Marketing Department!

And, I do NOT think you work for me!  Thank God for that!

B34N

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2011, 03:27:23 am »
There are some really wonderful things in LinuxMCE that I would love to use, but can’t even get the installation/AVwizard to complete consistently without errors.  I have wasted untold number of hours doing repeated installations following severely out of date Wiki instructions.

I'm a complete beginner. What are you trying to install on? Are you using supported equipment? I did my test installation on an old scrap PC that I had laying around. It got through the installation but I didn't have any hardware to do anything interesting with it. Next I bought a bare-bones system from a reputable supporter of LMCE (http://lmcecompatible.com/) and everything that they provided me with works perfectly. The only thing that doesn't work is the linux unsupported tuner card that I bought on my own (for a "good" price), even though many suggested a different model. Even with that bad purchase decision I still had many people put a lot of their time trying to support me. When I mentioned that the Wiki wasn't up to date, they suggested that I update it. I stated doing that and now I'm actually beginning to help the project (albeit in my very limited way) rather than just be a person that demands time and attention from those who are very tired of answering the same questions over and over again. I feel your pain but I think that your energies would be better used helping correct the issues with the Wiki rather than just complain about it in the forums.

golgoj4

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2011, 03:38:05 am »
Your response is beyond the caliber I expected.  "Yet another crybaby" is a telling phrase that you should reexamine!  If there are this many "crybabies," maybe you're doing something wrong just as I suspected.

Your use of foul language in this situation shows your character too well!  I was civil, can't you be as well?  You’re not a very good representation of the other fine people who I know work hard.

I know that my post was born out of frustration and wasn’t as coherent as I might want, but it is clear that you didn’t take anything positive away from what I had to say.  You have to admit, in every complaint a person hears, there is a bit of useful information that can make a process/product/service better.  I’m sorry you couldn’t see that.

Again, I would like to participate to make the solution better, but with a mouth like your’s, who wants to?  You certainly shouldn’t be in the Marketing Department!

And, I do NOT think you work for me!  Thank God for that!


Language: Just because i dont subscribe what you consider to be proper doesnt amount to much. Its your opinion. Also, your retarded assumptions based on 'language' pretty much confirm your an idiot. For example, the whole of the US military including my beloved canoe club the Navy curse...dare i say like Sailors. Yet they are quite competent. But excellent logic on your part, really.

Civility: The entirety of your post was snarky and contained nothing more than hear-say and anecdotal evidence/problems if that much. Once cannot debug anecdotes. Just  because you claim to be 'civil' does not make it so. From my perspective, I was civil  ;D

Take Aways: No, once again, your making assumptions up from thin air. What I took from your post is we need to make this even more simple for the average person. But with nothing more than a general rant, makes it hard.

And honestly, if you cant deal with adult language, then stick to mayberry. Plenty of people find me reasonable. Its the ones with their heads up their asses that seem to have a problem with me. And rightfully so. Because I unload without remorse.

But hey, since im such an evil person, maybe you should tell that to all the users who ive tried to help in some capacity where I can. Im sure they can confirm how much of an asshole I am. :)

Marketing: i will stay out of the marketing dept and stick to the getting shit done dept. The secret one only the annointed can find apparently  ::)

 And seriously, dont bullshit us with 'I want to help but...'. You are either going to or your not. Please dont try and use me or some other factor as an excuse. Nobody is saying its a requirement. But if your going to bitch like this, expect people like me wonder why the hell it is there are no tickets or anything else with your name on it indicating you have the slightest bit of interest in being a part of the solution.

Seriously, crying about language and ignoring the logical shortcomings of your original post brings me back to my original statement. Where do i send the clue?
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golgoj4

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2011, 04:35:47 am »
I'm a complete beginner. What are you trying to install on? Are you using supported equipment? I did my test installation on an old scrap PC that I had laying around. It got through the installation but I didn't have any hardware to do anything interesting with it. Next I bought a bare-bones system from a reputable supporter of LMCE (http://lmcecompatible.com/) and everything that they provided me with works perfectly. The only thing that doesn't work is the linux unsupported tuner card that I bought on my own (for a "good" price), even though many suggested a different model. Even with that bad purchase decision I still had many people put a lot of their time trying to support me. When I mentioned that the Wiki wasn't up to date, they suggested that I update it. I stated doing that and now I'm actually beginning to help the project (albeit in my very limited way) rather than just be a person that demands time and attention from those who are very tired of answering the same questions over and over again. I feel your pain but I think that your energies would be better used helping correct the issues with the Wiki rather than just complain about it in the forums.

Thanks for
A) Contributing what you can. Everything helps!
B) Sounding nicer than me!

-golgoj4
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Techstyle

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2011, 05:29:56 am »
I had never installed or downloaded any Linux software before I installed LinuxMCE.  it did take me a few installs but i did not change anything.  What I did do is be more patient each time (see the 1st rule of LMCE). 

bongowongo

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2011, 10:23:08 am »
You are totally right. We are very sorry.
Could you please give us your bank details so we can refund your money.

Oh wait.

If you have something constructive to say, we are all ears, if you get easily frustrated I would advice you to not use any software, or maybe buy a mac or something.
End of disussion.

uplink

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2011, 05:28:19 pm »
Your response is beyond the caliber I expected.  "Yet another crybaby" is a telling phrase that you should reexamine!  If there are this many "crybabies," maybe you're doing something wrong just as I suspected.

Your use of foul language in this situation shows your character too well!  I was civil, can't you be as well?  You’re not a very good representation of the other fine people who I know work hard.

I know that my post was born out of frustration and wasn’t as coherent as I might want, but it is clear that you didn’t take anything positive away from what I had to say.  You have to admit, in every complaint a person hears, there is a bit of useful information that can make a process/product/service better.  I’m sorry you couldn’t see that.

Again, I would like to participate to make the solution better, but with a mouth like your’s, who wants to?  You certainly shouldn’t be in the Marketing Department!

And, I do NOT think you work for me!  Thank God for that!


As soon as you put things in perspective and realise golgoj4 is a construction worker who took on writing qOrbiter without any programming background, I think you'll agree with me that he has the full right to say "fuck you" with plenty of exclamation marks to your face.

Yes, LMCE has some arcane ways of doing things. These have been added BECAUSE people wanted to make life easier for the users like you. Well, it backfired. Also, the people who worked on those bits disappeared into the void and LMCE doesn't have much help these days. If you don't like it AND you don't want to be patient and try to work things out, maybe help out a bit, then tough. I'm not saying this because I want to bash you. I'm saying this because this is reality. The things you want to be made easier for you lack staff. No amount of yelling, foot stumping and dropping on the floor screaming like a little kid will fix this. If you do this, the best thing that can happen is be left there until you cool down and realise your technique doesn't work. The worst thing that can happen is being kicked in the stomach while you're down. These days the LMCE developers have a tendency towards the latter, to relieve stress :)

hari

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2011, 07:21:07 pm »
Valued customer! Thank you for using our product. In order to ensure that our products meet the expectations of our valued customers we would like to invite you to share your thoughts with us about our product.

We would very much appreciate if you would please take just a few moments of your time to provide us the feedback we need to do this.

Thank you!


Questions prefixed with an * are required

*1.    When did you buy our product?
   
[ ] Less than 1 month ago
[ ] 1 - 6 months ago
[ ] 6 - 12 months ago
[ ] More than a year ago
[ ] Can't remember

*2.    How often do you use our product?
   
[ ] Hourly
[ ] Daily
[ ] Weekly
[ ] Monthly
[ ] Yearly
[ ] Never
   
*3.    How satisfied are you with the product quality?
   
[ ] very satisfied
[ ] neutral
[ ] not satisfied
[ ] so satisfied that I could **** a monkey
   
*4.    Compared to other similar products you have used our product is:
   
[ ] don't know
[ ] the best
[ ] better
[ ] about the same
[ ] worse
[ ] you suck
[ ] you suck even more
   
*5.    Compared to other similar products on the market, the value for money of this product is:
   
[ ] excellent
[ ] good
[ ] average
[ ] poor
[ ] very poor
[ ] priceless

*6.    Would you buy this product again?
   
[ ] probably
[ ] probably not
[ ] not before hell freezes over
   
*7.    Would you recommend this product to others you know?
   
[ ] yes
[ ] not sure
[ ] no
[ ] I have no friends
   
8.    Is there anything else that you would like to share with us that would help us improve our product?


« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 01:55:15 pm by hari »
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bongowongo

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2011, 07:42:39 pm »
Valued customer! Thank you for using our product. In order to ensure that our products meet the expectations of our valued customers we would like to invite you to share your thoughts with us about our product.

We would very much appreciate if you would please take just a few moments of your time to provide us the feedback we need to do this.

Thank you!


Questions prefixed with an * are required

*1.    When did you buy our product?
   
[ ] Less than 1 month ago
[ ] 1 - 6 months ago
[ ] 6 - 12 months ago
[X] More than a year ago
[ ] Can't remember

*2.    How often do you use our product?
   
[X] Hourly
[ ] Daily
[ ] Weekly
[ ] Monthly
[ ] Yearly
[ ] Never
   
*3.    How satisfied are you with the product quality?
   
[ ] very satisfied
[ ] neutral
[ ] not satisfied
[X] so satisfied that I could **** a monkey
   
*4.    Compared to other similar products you have used our product is:
   
[ ] don't know
[ ] the best
[ ] better
[ ] about the same
[ ] worse
[ ] you suck
[X ] you suck even more
   
*5.    Compared to other similar products on the market, the value for money of this product is:
   
[ ] excellent
[ ] good
[ ] average
[ ] poor
[ ] very poor
[X] priceless

*6.    Would you buy this product again?
   
[X] probably
[ ] probably not
[ ] not before hell freezes over
   
*7.    Would you recommend this product to others you know?
   
[ ] yes
[ ] not sure
[ ] no
[X] I have no friends
   
8.    Is there anything else that you would like to share with us that would help us improve our product?
I love you hari


« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 01:57:31 pm by hari »

frustrated

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2011, 07:54:18 pm »
Yes, LMCE has some arcane ways of doing things. These have been added BECAUSE people wanted to make life easier for the users like you. Well, it backfired. Also, the people who worked on those bits disappeared into the void and LMCE doesn't have much help these days. If you don't like it AND you don't want to be patient and try to work things out, maybe help out a bit, then tough. I'm not saying this because I want to bash you. I'm saying this because this is reality. The things you want to be made easier for you lack staff. No amount of yelling, foot stumping and dropping on the floor screaming like a little kid will fix this. If you do this, the best thing that can happen is be left there until you cool down and realise your technique doesn't work. The worst thing that can happen is being kicked in the stomach while you're down. These days the LMCE developers have a tendency towards the latter, to relieve stress :)
OK, as I said in my last post I didn’t go about my comments the way I should have; I was pretty frustrated about all the inconsistent results I would get from the same exact installs.  But again, my main points (which were lost in between my rants) are some pretty basic things that could make LMCE easier for newbies to get into:  1. “Download” link takes you to a page with broken links; 2. “Snapshot” link on the Download page takes you to a directory listing with no recommendation on which download to pick; 3. No link (like YouTube videos show previously) to any type of installation instructions until you go to Support, Wiki, Download, instructions;
4. *My Main Point* Why not just tell people that you’re short on help and not to expect the install to work right the first time? Why not tell people to not click too quickly through the setup because background things are still going on?  Tell us to be patient.  Sorry, but the YouTube videos really set you up at a high standard.

As soon as you put things in perspective and realise golgoj4 is a construction worker who took on writing qOrbiter without any programming background, I think you'll agree with me that he has the full right to say "fuck you" with plenty of exclamation marks to your face.
 
I used to be an IT guy (self taught) and now I’m a construction worker!  How do you like that?  In my 18 years in IT (ten years ago – economy here) I never ever responded as unprofessionally as golgoj4’s response even when a user was a jerk like me.  It’s bad PR for the project.  He has to realize that he’s part of the team and his behavior reflects on the entire project.  Sure, I was a *jerk*, but he outdid me by far.  When I do IT stuff (unpaid) for friends and even friends of friends, I don’t get upset when they are confused or even when they get upset.  Sure, I feel it all inside, but never express it to them.

bongowongo

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2011, 08:22:04 pm »
OK, as I said in my last post I didn’t go about my comments the way I should have; I was pretty frustrated about all the inconsistent results I would get from the same exact installs.  But again, my main points (which were lost in between my rants) are some pretty basic things that could make LMCE easier for newbies to get into:  1. “Download” link takes you to a page with broken links; 2. “Snapshot” link on the Download page takes you to a directory listing with no recommendation on which download to pick; 3. No link (like YouTube videos show previously) to any type of installation instructions until you go to Support, Wiki, Download, instructions;
4. *My Main Point* Why not just tell people that you’re short on help and not to expect the install to work right the first time? Why not tell people to not click too quickly through the setup because background things are still going on?  Tell us to be patient.  Sorry, but the YouTube videos really set you up at a high standard.
I used to be an IT guy (self taught) and now I’m a construction worker!  How do you like that?  In my 18 years in IT (ten years ago – economy here) I never ever responded as unprofessionally as golgoj4’s response even when a user was a jerk like me.  It’s bad PR for the project.  He has to realize that he’s part of the team and his behavior reflects on the entire project.  Sure, I was a *jerk*, but he outdid me by far.  When I do IT stuff (unpaid) for friends and even friends of friends, I don’t get upset when they are confused or even when they get upset.  Sure, I feel it all inside, but never express it to them.


#1 rule LinuxMCE = be patient.
It is written everywhere.

It is ok to be frustrated but do not take it out on us. I am on my 194th install, and I do not even use the system in my house.
And if you deliver a "punch", expect to receive one.
We do have our flaws, and saying that golgoj4 is unprofessional really undermines your own self-reflection that you were a jerk. So you see you are a jerk, but have no empathy why golgoj4 reacted like this?

If you want to help, please help.
If not, than not, but do not let your frustration frustrate us.

We are not evil, we are not nagging bitches, come to your senses, and go go go, there is a lot of stuff to do.

p.s.
Also look at this
http://www.linuxmce.org/index.php/news/developer/155-rc-time

uplink

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Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2011, 08:30:44 pm »
4. *My Main Point* Why not just tell people that you’re short on help and not to expect the install to work right the first time? Why not tell people to not click too quickly through the setup because background things are still going on?  Tell us to be patient.  Sorry, but the YouTube videos really set you up at a high standard.

I wonder how a "help needed" banner would work on the front page and some warnings on the installation pages, plus invitations to update the instructions if they don't match the experience (that's what collaboration in free software is about).

I used to be an IT guy (self taught) and now I’m a construction worker!  How do you like that?  In my 18 years in IT (ten years ago – economy here) I never ever responded as unprofessionally as golgoj4’s response even when a user was a jerk like me.  It’s bad PR for the project.  He has to realize that he’s part of the team and his behavior reflects on the entire project.  Sure, I was a *jerk*, but he outdid me by far.  When I do IT stuff (unpaid) for friends and even friends of friends, I don’t get upset when they are confused or even when they get upset.  Sure, I feel it all inside, but never express it to them.

I don't remember golgoj4 responding like this before, so I guess he waited for the right moment to do it. I guess you just got "lucky". Normally you'd get a similar kind of response from someone else :) but he's either not awake yet, or he is trying this new restrain in expression thing we're trying out.

Also, to not get in any "fuck you, fuck all of you and your pets" state of mind, I stopped helping friends and friends of friends in IT (unless they pay me quite a hefty sum, which they're not willing to). :D These days I can even genuinely tell them that I don't know Windows (I forgot it all - for real). I don't care if they don't call me anymore (because all the calls I received were about their computers anyway) :P


This being said, if you have the time and will to help, please have a look at the bits that annoy you and see if you see any quick fixes. Possy loves tickets in trac, so you should report your issues there (or contribute to already open tickets if they address your issues). Code and patches are always very welcome :)