Author Topic: WAF wins out.  (Read 4113 times)

skeptic

  • Addicted
  • *
  • Posts: 615
    • View Profile
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2010, 06:57:34 pm »
l3mce - I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over how much easier one product is than another.  I'm fine with LinuxMCE, the wife thinks other options are easier to use and look nicer.  End of discussion.  Clearly you have issues with reading comprehension as well, but thank you for taking the time to search through my older posts and quote one that supports what I am saying in this thread. 

It is the same product. Scheduling functions the same way because it is the same interface. There is no discussion to be had. If your wife cannot, after a single explanation, "work it"... I do not see how that would change.
It's not a question of her being able to, she can.  LMCE adds an extra layer on top.  LMCE -> MythTV (dumps you into live tv) -> back out to the MythTV menu (different look and feel from LMCE main menu).  From there it's the same.  That was just one random example, but clearly you are living in denial so you just be happy with yourself.
Quote

Your quoted post, while still whining that it isn't good enough, is in contrast to what you are saying now, and supported by your decision to move to the "eye candy" option you did not think LinuxMCE should go.
Reading comprehension owns you.  Most everyone agrees LMCE would benefit form a face-lift.  That doesn't mean eye-candy.  I switched to MythTV because it's the option my wife likes better. 
Quote

What did you expect this thread to accomplish? That everyone would drop the current product and re-engineer it to suit you so you will come back? Seriously? If you want a feature, make it. If you want to criticize it, you might want to contribute first to lend your opinion weight. My opinion has no weight... that is why I bother talking to you about this. It is not your place, nor mine, to complain about what "I think it should do" or state the obvious as if it is a revelation. There is nothing of merit in your contradictory posts, and this thread serves no purpose but to offend... my reading comprehension not withstanding.
Don't confuse suggestions with criticism.  The amount of contribution one makes has no bearing on the validity of a suggestion.  Sure, it carries more weight if a main dev suggests something, but that doesn't in and of itself make it more valid.

My posts do not contradict each other in any way.  This thread was never intended to offend, but it did go off-track a bit, thanks largely to you.  I don't expect anyone here to care what product I use or make major changes to keep me using LMCE.  The only thing I hoped to accomplish was to get people thinking about ways to attract people to the project, expand the user and developer base.  Few (none?) are new ideas, but no harm in mentioning them again. 

l3mce

  • NEEDS to work for LinuxMCE
  • ***
  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2010, 07:46:03 pm »
Quote from: skeptic

It's not a question of her being able to, she can.  LinuxMCE adds an extra layer on top.  LinuxMCE -> MythTV (dumps you into live tv) -> back out to the MythTV menu (different look and feel from LinuxMCE main menu).  From there it's the same.  That was just one random example, but clearly you are living in denial so you just be happy with yourself.

Speaking of reading comprehension... my suggestion was that she use a $10 remote. I even made a picture for you.


Quote
Reading comprehension owns you.  Most everyone agrees LinuxMCE would benefit form a face-lift.  That doesn't mean eye-candy.  I switched to MythTV because it's the option my wife likes better. 

So... because I am slow... maybe you can help me along with this... I take face lift to imply an improvement of appearance. I take eye candy to imply visually appealing features. Can you reconcile these for me so that they produce a different logical conclusion? Use small words.

Quote
I'm fine with LinuxMCE, the wife thinks other options are easier to use and look nicer.

I again do not seem to grasp why pushing the button is harder than navigating a different OSD with the same number of clicks. I get your point... the overall media interface is easier to navigate. That is because media is all you can do with it... see this all seems obvious... and I don't really get a valid point from you other than a "prettier but dumb" interface would draw more attention... but the point of this project, unlike any other I am aware of, is that this media interacts with your entire house. An event triggers a response. The magnitude and flexibility of the system, which you seem to think "does too much", does precisely what it is desired to do. I would relate your disparaging position, which is insulting to contributors, to trading your car in for a GPS, because the interface is more intuitive than the one in your car was. I find that regardless of your intent, the end result of your post is only going to be demoralizing and seen as ungrateful in the eyes of the readers you are intending, evidently, to send a "wake up call" to. You don't seem to know what you are talking about... and attacking me for not understanding your "feelings".


Quote
Don't confuse suggestions with criticism.  The amount of contribution one makes has no bearing on the validity of a suggestion.  Sure, it carries more weight if a main dev suggests something, but that doesn't in and of itself make it more valid.

Again, it is weightless to the intended reader. They need help, you don't help, then "suggest" they:
*rip out, rewrite, or otherwise get away from any proprietary code.  LinuxMCE needs FOSS programmers, some FOSS programmers may shy away from a project built from and still limited by non-free licensing, even if it's just some areas.

Drop pluto. Brilliant. I mean... I just don't even know how to address that. You seem to basically want mythbuntu with a couple of the "features" of lmce.

*stop chasing away potential users and developers.  Rude belittling posts do nothing but hurt the project. 

Not a criticism obviously... just a suggestion eh? I don't like the way Thom talks to me either... but until he says something that is INCORRECT in a condescending way... he is kind enough to waste his time explaining things to me. His frustrations are logical and blunt. I prefer people that way. It's honest... grow a thicker skin.

*listen to the users.  If a question or complaint comes up often, there is a reason. 

Implies they do not. My limited comprehension reading this board has led me to a very different conclusion. The board itself exists for that function.

I am not going to go line by line anymore. I see that you are naively unaware that the post is insulting. At this point I am fueling something negative here, bumping the post. I wish you luck... and more dimension.
I never quit... I just ping out.

tschak909

  • LinuxMCE God
  • ****
  • Posts: 5495
  • DOES work for LinuxMCE.
    • View Profile
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2010, 07:48:34 pm »
let's close out this thread, hm?

-Thom

skeptic

  • Addicted
  • *
  • Posts: 615
    • View Profile
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2010, 08:08:07 pm »
<useless drivel removed>

Again, it is weightless to the intended reader. They need help, you don't help, then "suggest" they:
*rip out, rewrite, or otherwise get away from any proprietary code.  LinuxMCE needs FOSS programmers, some FOSS programmers may shy away from a project built from and still limited by non-free licensing, even if it's just some areas.

Drop pluto. Brilliant. I mean... I just don't even know how to address that. You seem to basically want mythbuntu with a couple of the "features" of lmce.
I would not go so far as to call it brilliant, but as a long term goal it's important.  If I'm not mistaken, it's also in the plan.
Quote

*stop chasing away potential users and developers.  Rude belittling posts do nothing but hurt the project.  

Not a criticism obviously... just a suggestion eh? I don't like the way Thom talks to me either... but until he says something that is INCORRECT in a condescending way... he is kind enough to waste his time explaining things to me. His frustrations are logical and blunt. I prefer people that way. It's honest... grow a thicker skin.
Don't worry about me, my skin is plenty thick.  I just hate to see other people driven away.  This was not directed at Thom, BTW.
Quote

*listen to the users.  If a question or complaint comes up often, there is a reason.  

Implies they do not. My limited comprehension reading this board has led me to a very different conclusion. The board itself exists for that function.
Agreed, but the prevailing attitude, which you have perpetuated here in this thread, is the opinions of users don't matter.  Only those that contribute an arbitrary "enough" should be allowed to comment.
Quote

I am not going to go line by line anymore. I see that you are naively unaware that the post is insulting. At this point I am fueling something negative here, bumping the post. I wish you luck... and more dimension.
Perhaps you should grow thicker skin.  Suggesting improvements or pointing out deficiencies should not be taken as insults.  Without your input this thread would have been far less negative.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 08:10:46 pm by skeptic »

golgoj4

  • NEEDS to work for LinuxMCE
  • ***
  • Posts: 1072
  • hrumpf!
    • View Profile
    • La Smarthomes - SoCal smarthome site
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2010, 08:11:33 pm »
why cant this thread just die!?!?!?!?!?!?
Those people who tell you not to take chances, they are all missing what life's all about.

Wiki Hardware Page http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User:Langstonius

hari

  • Administrator
  • LinuxMCE God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2420
    • View Profile
    • ago control
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2010, 10:04:15 pm »
can I have some popcorn with this?

br Hari
rock your home - http://www.agocontrol.com home automation

golgoj4

  • NEEDS to work for LinuxMCE
  • ***
  • Posts: 1072
  • hrumpf!
    • View Profile
    • La Smarthomes - SoCal smarthome site
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2010, 11:11:30 pm »
can I have some popcorn with this?

br Hari

I worked at a movie theater once.
Those people who tell you not to take chances, they are all missing what life's all about.

Wiki Hardware Page http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User:Langstonius

marrandy

  • Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2010, 12:09:57 am »
can I have some popcorn with this?

br Hari


Here you go...enjoy


l3mce

  • NEEDS to work for LinuxMCE
  • ***
  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2010, 01:16:05 am »
Quote from: skeptic
I would not go so far as to call it brilliant, but as a long term goal it's important.  If I'm not mistaken, it's also in the plan.

If you honestly believe it to be the plan, then why bother to suggest it? This would be the sort of thing I refer to as disingenuous. Your OP simply says "Ground up re-architect the back end, or steal it, because the license sucks. Redesign the front end with a more attractive, but not necessarily pretty, UI that I find more intuitive. I love the system, but if you would just trash it and start over, I might find it worthy to use without contribution."

Kind of like me saying "If your wife was prettier, and a different race, I'd bang her."

Quote from: skeptic
Agreed, but the prevailing attitude, which you have perpetuated here in this thread, is the opinions of users don't matter.  Only those that contribute an arbitrary "enough" should be allowed to comment.

Let's shoot for an arbitrary "anything". I agree, however, that my opinion is equally useless as an end user who has contributed nothing to date. I think the prevailing attitude here is more along the lines of "I work my ass off and all people do is complain. Why spend xx hours a day helping you, for you to switch and call my work 'ugly' and 'not intuitive'."

Quote from: skeptic
Perhaps you should grow thicker skin.  Suggesting improvements or pointing out deficiencies should not be taken as insults.  Without your input this thread would have been far less negative.

It doesn't offend me... I was just trying to explain why it was offensive. If you still do not understand, I doubt I am going to be able to make it clearer to you. Without my input, this thread would have been less negative to you.

With that I will give you the last word... at least I will try.
I never quit... I just ping out.

skeptic

  • Addicted
  • *
  • Posts: 615
    • View Profile
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2010, 01:35:23 am »
You are either clueless or a troll.  Clearly unable to understand what I have written while trying to change the meaning around.  No point in trying to explain what has already been explained, you'll never get it.  Thank you for staying out of my thread, now that you've turned it into a flame war.

Mods - you may as well lock this thread, it's pointless now.

golgoj4

  • NEEDS to work for LinuxMCE
  • ***
  • Posts: 1072
  • hrumpf!
    • View Profile
    • La Smarthomes - SoCal smarthome site
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2010, 04:05:56 am »
You are either clueless or a troll.  Clearly unable to understand what I have written while trying to change the meaning around.  No point in trying to explain what has already been explained, you'll never get it.  Thank you for staying out of my thread, now that you've turned it into a flame war.

Mods - you may as well lock this thread, it's pointless now.

*calls fire dept in leiu of adding more gasoline*

Those people who tell you not to take chances, they are all missing what life's all about.

Wiki Hardware Page http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User:Langstonius

l3mce

  • NEEDS to work for LinuxMCE
  • ***
  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2010, 04:35:47 am »
You are either clueless or a troll.  Clearly unable to understand what I have written while trying to change the meaning around.  No point in trying to explain what has already been explained, you'll never get it.  Thank you for staying out of my thread, now that you've turned it into a flame war.

Mods - you may as well lock this thread, it's pointless now.

I am a recovering troll.


I am sorry.


No hard feelings. I have just been in similar situations, and I am a frustrated little man.


Olive branch.
I never quit... I just ping out.

wierdbeard65

  • Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 449
    • View Profile
    • My Quest
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2010, 10:55:20 am »
can I have some popcorn with this?

br Hari
LMAO. These threads do get a bit like that, don't they? This isn't the first, nor, I suspect, will it be the last!
Mods - you may as well lock this thread, it's pointless now.
I disagree. If we return to your initial posting, you did, IMHO, make some valid points. Unfortunately, they hav been lost in the ensuing flame war!

Various people have commented on the whole "if you don't contribute, your opinion is worthless" debate (on both sides). For my own part, I think a lot depends on what you mean by contribute. If you mean coding, then I disagree with the statement. If you mean involvement in all aspects (testing, documenting, helping, etc.) then I would agree with it. FWIW, I am considering going down Skeptic's path, at least until it's beyond Beta. My reasons are twofold:
  • At a Beta level, as various people have said in other threads, it isn't ready for production. I work away and I need the system to jus keep working. Without failure or excuses. My own WAF / FAF depends on it. My wife is doing an MSc., my kids their school exams and the simply cannot have the internet go down. Even showing them which cable to move is not an acceptable solutions (you haven't met my family) so if MCE needs to be the router, then at a Beta level I cannot use it as I would like to.
  • At this time, I ONLY want Media. I have no interest in (or use for) HA, Security, Telephony etc. Therefore the interface is cluttered. If I stick with MCE, I will hav to re-skin the interface to exclude the stuff I don't want or use (if that can be done). Again, I don't want to start a debate on this, but IMHO, the Telephony "row" in the Orbiter shouldn't even be shown until Telephony is set up. Same with Lighting etc. etc. Perhaps in the Orbiter re-write?
I am not, however, ready to move away from MCE yet. My reasons for staying are:
  • I do want a unified system. Off-air TV. Recording TV. DVD's Music. Pictures. All with one interface. So far, I havn't seen anything else that does this.
  • Whilst I support skeptic's desire for a non-PXE option for MD's. I want PXE booting. At least with MCE, I don't have to really think about it!
  • I have already invested a lot of time and effort into MCE. I haven't (yet) got it up and running (!) but I don't want to chuck all that away. Plus, you're such a great bunch! (And I do NOT say that with any sense of sarcasm!)

Returning to Skeptic's original posting. What we MUST recognise, is that (almost without exception) everyone here is a techie. Getting genuine feedback from the target "end user" community is valuable and should not be ridiculed in this way. l3mce, your postings with pictures are inflamatory and pointless. It ISN'T about whether YOU find it easy, it's about whether the USER finds it easy. Call it personal preference. Call it stupidity. It doesn't matter. This user has made a comment and that comment is vslid.

Whenever I complete any work at all. Techie or otherwise. I always seek comment and approval from "outside". Often, a fresh pair of eyes sees something differently and can offer suggestions that I would not have considered, which may improve my project. Hell, I even get my wife to proof-read SMS messages to my ex-wife! Please, guys, see this thread in that light. You may not agree with Skeptic's wife, but you have to value her opinion (even if you ultimately ignore it!)

I would like to take his posting point-by-point though. Each point could well spawn its own thread!
Well guys, I hate to admit it but the wife has been somewhat unhappy with LinuxMCE from the start.  She loves the idea of a central media center and various frontend MDs, as well as the potential for all the home automation stuff, integrated security and phone system, etc.  Unfortunately she hates the interface.  Ugly, non-intuitive, sometimes glitchy.  She wants to be able pick up a remote and have everything make sense, not need to learn where stuff is or how to do things. 

Since I had a spare 500G SATA drive in my closet, I went ahead and installed Mythbuntu for her to try.  The wife is happy with it, so it looks like I'll be stepping away from linuxmce for a while.  To be completely honest, I like it much better myself except for the lack of HA features.
So, a user finds the interface counter-intuitive and doesn't like the bugs. Furthermore, they have sited an example of something they prefer. Fair enough.
*rip out, rewrite, or otherwise get away from any proprietary code.  LinuxMCE needs FOSS programmers, some FOSS programmers may shy away from a project built from and still limited by non-free licensing, even if it's just some areas.
Yes, he may be simply re-stating MCE "policy" here, but it's a worthy aim. I know a lot of FOSS developers are highly principled and wouldn't consider involvement in a project that wasn't totally open. Even here, the thought of integrating a proprietary system is met with hostility!
*stop chasing away potential users and developers.  Rude belittling posts do nothing but hurt the project. 
I ahve already commented on this above.
*listen to the users.  If a question or complaint comes up often, there is a reason. 
This is true, although not often a technical one! Maybe it's the documentation that's at fault. The one that springs to mind (for me) is the whole issue of having 2 NICs. We ALL know by now why 2 are required, but I'd bet every one of us cn think of reasons (at least for now) why we would rather it not be like that!
*more linux standard stuff, less wizardy stuff.  Think of how many people run into the "black screen, press 1, 2, 3, etc." on hardware where a standard linux install works fine. 
I agree. If I want to change something, I want that change to stick. Maybe better documentation is the key? For example, what if I want to keep my 2-NIC core, but have a second machine act as my internet router? (I.E. have two machines that are dual-homed) Where do I change the default gateway in MCE's setup? (I may have chosen a bad example here, but you get the idea.)
*If at all possible, get this to run on other distros.
I don't think this is practical, although (as I said above) I was under the impression that once 810 goes to release, future versions will be much faster to produce and we should be able to pretty much keep up with the Ubuntu releases. (Can anyone confirm this?)
*Do not force PXE booted MDs.  Net booting is nice, it's slick, but sometimes being able to boot a MD from a local HD is a better option.
Again, I like this, but can see times when a local MD boot would be useful. Say I want to put an MD in a place where I simply cannot get a network cable? WiFi is the obvios solution, but PXE over WiFi?
*Put an end to the constand "need to reload router" and "need to regenerate orbiter" stuff.
Err. Yes. But how?? Would it be possible to have the orbiter regeneration be a background task so that the system can still be used while the regeneration is done? If I add something to the system which requires all orbiters to regenerate, that shouldn't stop people form using existing functionality (like watching a dvd) elsewhere.
Of course these are all suggestions, nobody can demand or even expect the devs to work on anything they don't want to (unless they are being directly paid for specific items).  I'll still be lurking from time to time, I may even setup a test environment and continue to play around.
Like the man says, they are only suggestions!
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 11:00:55 am by wierdbeard65 »
Paul
If you have the time to help, please see where I have got to at: http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User:Wierdbeard65

hari

  • Administrator
  • LinuxMCE God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2420
    • View Profile
    • ago control
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2010, 12:31:04 pm »
thanks marrandy!
rock your home - http://www.agocontrol.com home automation

golgoj4

  • NEEDS to work for LinuxMCE
  • ***
  • Posts: 1072
  • hrumpf!
    • View Profile
    • La Smarthomes - SoCal smarthome site
Re: WAF wins out.
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2010, 04:34:40 pm »
jeez this thread is a waste of space. Sounds like a bunch of middle managers going on about nothing.  ::)

my only comment is that im a user too, and I dont seem to find things as difficult to deal with as others. But then maybe thats because I understand that people are DONATING their time to the project and try to involve myself in a CONSTRUCTIVE way instead of making useless comparisons to other software. There are clearly things that need improving, but to make all these public forum posts because nobody has time to implement your ideas for you or work on what you decide is the most important thing is frankly bs. I personally have yet to come across anything in this thread that doesn't sound like a bunch of 'waaah, listen to my ideas because they are so awesome!' I dont think its a bad idea to chase away people who have no concept of community and think that because they install something, they are owed something.

Maybe I should start sending bon bons and a Designing Women dvd to these people to help them cope...

-golgoj4, tired of the bitching.
Those people who tell you not to take chances, they are all missing what life's all about.

Wiki Hardware Page http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User:Langstonius