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Messages - mkbrown69

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166
Users / Re: Is sysklogd needed?
« on: January 14, 2012, 04:31:11 am »
Nice work brononi!

Are you using the MySQL backend for rsyslog, or is cacti just parsing the logs?  If you want to get fancy, you can enable remote syslog sending on your MD's, listening on the core, and then you can run a central syslog server on the core.  We do that at work for the security guys.  Linksys and OpenWRT routers (and a few others) support sending their syslog output to a syslog host, so you could incorporate that if you wanted...

Just an FYI, Ubuntu 10.04 and newer use rsyslog.  I think most modern distros have ditched ksyslogd for rsyslog.

You might want to put up a wiki page (even if it's on your own user page) so that others can follow in your footsteps and play around with it.  It might stir up the creative juices...

In my case, I've been running collectd on my KVM virtual host and in the guests, as it can hook into the stats provided by libvirt on the host, and I can also see what's happening inside the guest via the collectd daemon running there.  To keep the stats fresh and the system responsive, I put the RRD's on a 4 GB logical volume on an SSD (I do the same with my existing MythTV/MySQL production system, and the MySQL used by my LMCE 10.04 virtual core that I'm testing (/var/lib/mysql for each of them is it's own logical volume on the SSD on the host).  Keeps the databases performing nicely and the system responsive.  Your Cacti implementation looks interesting, as some have used Cacti as a front end for the RRD's provided by collectd.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!

/Mike

167
Installation issues / Re: Phone line admin page is missing in 1004
« on: December 20, 2011, 10:07:27 pm »
OK, maybe not an asterisk problem. I tried to reinstall and watch things more closely. Looks like there were download errors. If someone could help me out with the --fix missing syntax then I could investigate further.

sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install --fix-missing

That should do it for you!

/Mike

168
Users / Re: mythconverg_bac out of control
« on: December 20, 2011, 05:18:41 am »
Here's the permissions for the binaries in /usr/bin {stock 0.23}

-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root   34632 2010-04-23 22:04 mythavtest
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1433788 2010-04-23 22:04 mythbackend
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  588276 2010-04-23 22:04 mythcommflag
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  359088 2010-04-23 22:04 mythfilldatabase
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      31 2011-10-07 21:46 mythfrontend -> ../share/mythtv/mythfrontend.sh
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2209232 2010-04-23 22:04 mythfrontend.real
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root   38688 2010-04-23 22:04 mythjobqueue
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  227312 2010-04-23 22:04 mythlcdserver
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root   84164 2010-04-23 22:04 mythreplex
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root   83764 2010-04-23 22:04 mythshutdown
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  359576 2010-04-23 22:04 mythtranscode
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root   18052 2010-04-23 22:04 mythtvosd
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      31 2011-10-07 21:42 mythtv-setup -> ../share/mythtv/mythtv-setup.sh
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  363528 2010-04-23 22:04 mythtv-setup.real
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  141736 2010-04-23 22:04 mythwelcome

And the running processes...

 ps -ef |grep myth
mythtv    1309  1308  0 Dec17 ?        00:01:13 /usr/bin/mythbackend --logfile /var/log/mythtv/mythbackend.log --user mythtv
mythtv    3414  7578  0 23:13 ?        00:00:00 sleep 1
mythtv    7577  1309  0 Dec18 ?        00:00:00 sh -c /usr/pluto/bin/MythTvDailyFillDB.sh  >>/var/log/mythtv/mythfilldatabase.log 2>&1
mythtv    7578  7577  0 Dec18 ?        00:10:34 /bin/bash /usr/pluto/bin/MythTvDailyFillDB.sh

And the permissions on /var/log/mythtv
drwxrwsr-x  2 mythtv    mythtv       4096 2011-10-08 22:21 mythtv


Hope that helps!

/Mike

169
Users / Re: mythconverg_bac out of control
« on: December 16, 2011, 06:17:43 pm »
You can stop an upstart job with:

sudo stop {service name}

Restart it with sudo start {service name}.

To disable it once already stopped, you can either

sudo mv /etc/init/{service}.conf /etc/init/{service}.conf.noexec

or

sudo update-rc.d {service} disable

(doing it again with enable at the end will re-enable it)

Hope that helps!

/Mike

170
Users / Re: mythconverg_bac out of control
« on: December 14, 2011, 05:57:28 pm »
A couple of possibilities for you:

Disable the upstart job that starts mythtv-backend.  Upstart has service supervision, so if the backend keeps dying, upstart will restart it (kind of like monit or daemontools).

Rename the mythtv-backend binary.  Then you can launch it from a terminal with debugging turned on.  I'm not in front of my system right now, so I can't say for certain what the binary is called.  I think it's mythtv-backend.

Hope that helps!

/Mike

171
Users / Re: Live Tv Menu
« on: November 21, 2011, 10:17:37 pm »
I have a 19 month old and 3 month old. The 19 month thinks his bedtime isn't until 11:00 :)

It'll get a bit better when they get into kindergarten... it tuckers them out pretty good.  Until then, you're it!  ;-)

Thom, Posde, or gogol4,

Given that it's undergoing inital dev in 10.04, is the plan to make qOrbiter the new orbiter for 12.04?  Will the old one be deprecated or removed when qOrbiter becomes the default?

Just curious...

/Mike (aka parental play structure unit known to two as DAD ;-)

172
Users / Re: MythTV version
« on: November 14, 2011, 04:36:13 am »
Thom,

Thanks for the info.  Ticket 1329 has been created in Trac for tracking purposes, and referenced this thread.

I'm not a C programmer, so someone more talented in that department with a vested interest will likely get something done before I can figure out the basics.

Thanks for the pointers on DCE and Device Data.  I'll read up on that for some plumbing I'm looking into.

/Mike

173
Users / Re: MythTV version
« on: November 13, 2011, 11:07:34 pm »
The MythTV backend protocol has changed.

Due to brain dead changes in MythTV's backend protocol by truly idiotic developers, You will need to change the code that sends the MYTH_PROTO command, to also output the appropriate version token. This is a random hex number that changes with each official released version. This was a deliberate attempt to keep unofficial clients from just randomly connecting to the backend.

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MYTH_PROTO_VERSION_(Myth_Protocol)  it is explained here.
I have here a patch file for doing it for 0.24. No this will not be folded in until the official mythTV packages upstream change to 0.24, as this completely breaks 0.23 compatibility.

Code: [Select]
Index: MythBackEnd_Socket.cpp
===================================================================
--- MythBackEnd_Socket.cpp (revision 25010)
+++ MythBackEnd_Socket.cpp (working copy)
@@ -17,7 +17,7 @@
 using namespace std;
 using namespace DCE;
 
-#define MYTH_PROTOCOL 56
+#define MYTH_PROTOCOL 63
 #include "Gen_Devices/AllCommandsRequests.h"
 
 MythBackEnd_Socket::MythBackEnd_Socket(MythTV_PlugIn *pMythTV_PlugIn,string sIPAddress)
@@ -157,7 +157,7 @@
  m_bConnected=true;
 
  string sResponse;
- if( !InternalSendMythString("MYTH_PROTO_VERSION " TOSTRING(MYTH_PROTOCOL),&sResponse,"ACCEPT") )
+ if( !InternalSendMythString("MYTH_PROTO_VERSION " TOSTRING(MYTH_PROTOCOL) " 3875641D",&sResponse,"ACCEPT") )
  {
  LoggerWrapper::GetInstance()->Write(LV_CRITICAL,"MythBackEnd_Socket::Connect couldn't send MYTH_PROTO_VERSION m_bConnected=false");
  DeleteSocket();

Thom,

Could the MythTV Player be extended to read in MYTH_PROTO_VERSION from a configuration file in /etc/pluto?  That way people who need to run a newer version of Myth could simply change the Protocol number.  Obviously, they couldn't leverage newer MythTV features that aren't supported in the Player, but they'd have the basic functionality.

Something for your consideration...

/Mike

174
Installation issues / Re: Installation hang on second step. Please help))
« on: October 26, 2011, 07:33:59 pm »
i start install again   on monitor   file /etc/apt/sources.list   and LaunchManager.progress.log
when shown
        Downloading radvd - IPv6 Router Advertisement Daemon...
        Failed to get radvd - IPv6 Router Advertisement Daemon

the lucid  entry is addeded  on sources.list
i edited this fille and remove lucid line .
and now installation is finished .  and show  Sara

radvd is also affecting 10.04 installs, may be an upstream issue.

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php/topic,11988.msg84827.html#msg84827
http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php/topic,11988.msg84895.html#msg84895

Hope that helps!

/Mike

175
Installation issues / Re: New 1004 Installer Testing
« on: October 24, 2011, 07:06:35 pm »
oops maybe spoke too soon.
apt-get apdate/upgrade today on the virtual core and I'm getting an error installing radvd, error parsing config file.

-Coley.

I had the same issue.  I solved it by copying radvd.conf from /usr/share/doc/radvd/examples/simple-radvd.conf to /etc/radvd.conf, and then doing apt-get install to resume the upgrade.  I would concur with Murdock as it's likely an upstream issue.  The radvd.conf file that was installed by apt had two blank lines in it, which is why apt barfed an error on trying to restart the service.

/Mike

P.S.  I'm not typing this from home; The path is from memory, so it'll get you in the ballpark if it's not quite right! ;-)

P.P.S.S. I'm running LMCE in a KVM based VM, installed by the new installer.  Core installed fine, I'm having issues with MD's.  Neither has a keyboard attached normally.  One is a Intel Atom 330 with Intel graphics (X fails to configure), the second is an M2NPV-VM using component out 720p (which doesn't initialize).  I expect the M2NPV-VM is fine, and I just need to use the keyboard to pick the output and resolution.  I'll see if I can work it out with the Atom/Intel graphics, and submit a ticket/patches when I get some free time.  Not much of that when you have kids ;-)

176
Developers / Re: The Vision
« on: October 12, 2011, 05:51:32 am »
Just some thoughts to share with respect to golgoj4's post...

What is LinuxMCE now, and what is it meant to become?  What doesn't it do that it should, what does it do that it shouldn't, and what will it never do?  That's where Vision comes into play... Vision provides scope and direction, which are really important when developers (and developer's time) are limited.  It also affects decisions about architecture and infrastructure, frameworks and integration points...

For example, the requests forum is a real smorgasbord of people's wants and desires for LinuxMCE.  What makes it in, and what doesn't?  The usual answer is, those that write the code can put it in; but does it always make sense to put some something in, just because you can?  Many of the requests are for portal and app server functionality, like the stuff Amahi does.  Is that a space LinuxMCE wants to or should be playing in?  If so, what framework(s) get used/re-used to provide that functionality to maximize on the features delivered vs time invested by developers.  Another example would be Dianemo using MythTV and saying that it provides everything that VDR could do.  Does that mean VDR support is a duplication of effort?  Should it be deprecated/removed for 10.04?  (Note: I'm not saying that, but with a common vision and direction, these kinds of things have to be examined and decided upon).  Vision provides scope and direction, which influence quality, time and effort.

I bring this up only because one of my roles in my day job is to encourage the DBA's and app admins I support to consider the full life-cycle of the services they support, both for the here and now and for the end state, because they do effect one another.  The end state (the vision) effects the here and now, and the attitudes towards the here and now (scope and direction, and consequently time, effort, and quality) effects the end state.  I do this as someone who inherits the "lost turds"; the services that were rushed out to meet the immediate needs of the here and now, with no consideration for the long-term life-cycle needs of that vital service.  Specifically, how to keep it alive and well, and evolve it as needed.

LinuxMCE is different from most projects or applications, and not just because of it's complexity.  When fully integrated into a home environment, it becomes a daily use tool, one that people can literally grow up with; in some cases, children may become teenagers or adults, not remembering a time before LinuxMCE was a part of their lives.  That's why Vision is so important... As a collection of OpenSource components, LinuxMCE's foundations have a life of their own, which will drive the evolution of LinuxMCE to a large extent.  As the LinuxMCE project itself grows and evolves, more people will come about to try to help out in some way.  With a shared collective vision and direction, it becomes easier to rally the troops and make strategic choices; without, it may be like herding cats...

I'm going to duck back out now and continue to examine the plumbing in 10.04... still got a lot to figure out before I can hope to make a contribution, but I hope to make a dent in posde's points 1 & 2 eventually...

/Mike

177
Users / Re: LMCE newb... what do I need?
« on: September 09, 2011, 06:44:03 pm »
any good docs you could point us to.
Currently I am running KVM on a proxmox ve server
I do have an 80gb ssd I could add for mysql use any hints on that

Tim,

I think I'll write up a wiki page of tips and tricks for virtualization that are specific to LMCE, so it doesn't get lost in this thread.  Mostly, it's paying attention to a whole bunch of little details, where the aggregate cause a significant performance boost.

Proxmox VE is a Debian-based distro, with KVM and their own perl-based management GUI.  I haven't used it myself other than quickly trying it out, but I believe it uses LVM as an option with local storage.  If that's the case, then what you might want to do is carve off a 20G LVM slice of the SSD as your LMCE boot/root disk, and mount other spindle-based slices as /var/log, /tmp and /home.  That way, you're placing your I/O workload onto hardware that will lend itself well to the types of I/O that will be hitting it.  I think you'll find Orbiter Regens will just fly!  It'll take some work to do it that way; you'll either have to install from scratch to the SSD, doing a manual partitioning of the virtual disks, or restore a clonezilla backup to the SSD, mount the spindle slices to temporary mount points and rsync the data over (and then delete the original copy), then pivot the disks into their final mount points.  There are some SSD specific optimizations that can be done in the guest OS, plus the disk I/O schedulers need to be disabled for the virtual disks.

Basically, the kernel disk drivers assume that it's writing to real disks, so it queues up and re-orders operations in order to take advantage of where the heads are over the disk platters.  The host OS is already doing this, so we don't need the guest OS doing it also, because it will simply be working at odds to what the host (who actually controls the access to the disks) is doing.  So, we add "elevator=noop" to the kernel boot parameters of the guest.  Where to do it varies between grub and grub2, so I'll leave that as an exercise for the wiki.  You can change it on the fly with echo noop > /sys/block/[s,v]d[a-z]/queue/scheduler.  You can also cat that file to see the one in brackets that is presently selected.  You can do that change on a per-disk basis in /etc/rc.local, by echoing the appropriate scheduler to the appropriate disk.  SSD's like the deadline scheduler better, as it round-robins all the processes seeking I/O time.

You also want to configure the device on the virtualisation host as a "Virtual disk" rather than an emulated IDE or SCSI, as that will leverage the paravirtualized VirtIO drivers.  You'll also want to configure the network adapter as a VirtIO device as well, as the drivers for both network and disk are included in the 8.10 and 10.04 kernels.  VirtIO gives a huge performance boost (near native, 95~99% to the physical hardware), as the hypervisor is not having to emulate various hardware registers in software.  Networking between VM's using VirtIO is simply a memory-to-memory copy, and that occurs at orders of magnitude faster in RAM than on wirespeed.

There are some other parameters I've put in my libvirt config files to disable caching, mount point options in the guest OS's to optimize for the underlying slices, and some other application specific tweaks, so I'll go through my stuff at home and make a proper wiki page for a virtual LMCE core.  I've got some half baked ideas for  some infrastructure work on LMCE that will do some auto-detection of the underlying core and md hardware (physical and virtual), and will make optimizations based on what it finds.  It's something I'm already working on at the day job, so I'll need to work up a proof-of-concept at home for how I can abuse it for use in LMCE.  It's going to take a while to get there, as I have to poke around under the hood in LMCE to see how things are working presently, and how (and when) this new infrastructure could be integrated non-disruptively.

Hope that helps!

/Mike

178
Users / Re: LMCE newb... what do I need?
« on: September 08, 2011, 09:46:25 pm »
I have found vm's work fine for testing for both core and MD's but as far as a production system It don't cut the mustard.

Do you guys have stock in your electric companies ;)
You can run lmce on a 35 watt core

just my 2cents

Tim

In my day job, 95% percent of what I work on is virtualized, and I work with 4 different hypervisors on three different hardware platforms.  The stuff that doesn't get virtualized is the stuff that will keep a 32-core box running flat out all the time on it's own. VM's run fine when the OS is tweaked to use paravirtualized drivers and some of the default behaviours of it's I/O are changed.  It's also helpful to have an end-to-end understanding of the hosting hardware platform, the hypervisor and it's various schedulers, and the underlying infrastructure like SAN and network, plus where you need to tweak under the hood to optimize for the workload.  At work we regularly get 80-100 VM's onto a big honkin server, and the client's don't know the OS instance is virtualized.

As for my home system, I'm running LMCE plus an average of 5 other VM's on a 45W Dual core CPU.  LMCE (8.10) actually places the highest load on the system, in part do the the age of the virtualized drivers and the kernel itself, plus inefficiencies in ext3 filesystems running in virtuals.  10.04 with ext4 file systems and VirtIO drivers plays a lot nicer in a virtualized environment.  I'm actually trying to avoid having to upgrade the CPU, but if I end up running Windows as a virtual I'll have no choice; Windows (even 7) takes up wayyyy more resources than an equivalent Linux install.  Energy efficient CPU's in Socket AM3 are getting harder to find unless you special order them from NewEgg or something like that...

LMCE Core (1vCPU, 1.7G RAM)
Zarafa Mail Server (1vCPU 1.5G RAM)
Misterhouse Home Automation (1vCPU 512M RAM)
Astaro VPN endpoint (1vCPU 512M RAM)
Ubuntu Virtual Hosted Desktop (1vCPU 784M RAM)
LMCE MD and other test VM's (1 vCPU and various RAM sizes, keeping under 5G total to leave a gig for the host OS)

Plus MythTV and other external network services that are running on the host OS.

At this point in time, I'm more I/O bound than CPU bound, but less so since I added a 40G SSD which I've carved up through LVM and presented as separate disks to instances running MySQL.  It gets mounted inside the guest at /var/lib/mysql, and the db files sit on it.  I'm seeing ~1400 IOPS using the VirtIO drivers in the guest to the LVM'd SSD, compared to ~100 IOPS on my RAID-1 set on the host, using the Oracle Orion test tool.  Disks are better for sequential I/O (like media files and logging), and SSD's are better for Random I/O (like OS drives and databases).  Using Orion on the raw SSD block device from the host nets me ~25K IOPS (that's avoiding the FS and the FS cache).

One thing that tends to foul up most people using VM's is throwing more vCPU's at an instance in order to improve performance.  More often than not, more vCPU's will hobble you, as the hypervisor has to find the free number of cores available at the same time as you have vCPU's configured, before it will schedule workload on the cores.  So, on a dual core host, a VM with 2 vCPU's would need both cores free _at the same time_ before the hypervisor's scheduler will dispatch the guest onto the cores.  So, host processes will be in competition with the guest for CPU time, as those usually get dispatched individually onto cores.  If you have more than one 2vCPU guest, then they start to get into contention for CPU time, with each other and the other guests.  If they have heavy I/O, then the host is competing with the guests for CPU time in order to perform the I/O, and all are starved out as a result.  Then people complain that virtualization sucks...  ;)

Food for thought...

/Mike

179
Users / Re: LMCE newb... what do I need?
« on: September 08, 2011, 07:04:16 pm »
I have a 20-bay chassis with (10) 1TB drives in 2 RAID sets with a global hotspare for a total of 7TB of usable storage running FreeNAS.

I run a 2-node vSphere cluster with twin IBM xSeries 3500's connected via iSCSI from FreeNAS, each with 8GB of RAM.  I've been thinking about cutting my cluster down to a single node and either using the other one for a core server or getting rid of it altogether (it's very loud and consumes alot of power).

I also run a decent Dell PC as an Untangled router...

All of this is connected to a 48-port managed gig switch capable of VLAN tagging (which currently separates my storage network from my internet accessible network, as well as my ESXi management networks... routed via router on a stick with a Cisco 2651XM router)

If you're looking to shrink down your infrastructure, you might want to check out http://www.napp-it.org/napp-it/all-in-one/index_en.html, and specifically the PDF http://www.napp-it.org/doc/downloads/all-in-one.pdf.  Basically, an ESXi host running a Solaris-based NAS/SAN appliance.  You can use RDM, or if your hardware supports VT-d or IOMMU, you can pass through the HBA into the guest.  Assuming you're running ZFS, you may even be able to export your ZFS pools from FreeNAS, and import them to the Solaris-based products.  You definitely can not do vMotion if you go the All-in-one approach, or if you do any PCI pass-through of Tuner cards or other host-based devices.

LMCE runs fine as a VM, as I'm running it as a KVM VM on my Linux virtualisation host.  I'm going to play with a virtual MD for some testing and infrastructure work I'm looking at doing.  I've got an Athlon x2 5050e 2.6Ghz dual core running 6 VM's on 6GB of memory, and my load averages are 0.5 -1.5 the majority of the time (all Linux VM's).  I'll have to bump it up CPU wise if I implement the Win7 Virtual Hosted Desktop I'm thinking of doing... (I like having my own private cloud).

I have two physical NIC's, as recommended by the LMCE configuration architecture.  eth0 is the existing home "production" network, and eth1 is the LMCE managed network.  I've bridged them internally, eth0 to br_ext, and eth1 to br_int, and I have VM's configured to attach to the appropriate network (think vSwitched internal networks bridged to external physical networks).  My mail server VM, Misterhouse VM, and host-based DNS/DHCP/NFS/tftp/MythTV services are connected to the br_ext network, for my existing prod environment, and the LMCE dcerouter/core is dual-homed for external access, but it owns the br_int network.  You could implement something similar using vSwitches and partition your switch or use VLAN tagging to separate the network environments.  It's best to let LMCE manage DNS and DHCP for the LMCE network (the 192.168.80.0/24 net), so that the PnP and auto-configuration stuff works automagically.  If you want to get really fancy, your WAN connection could connect to the Untangle box running as a VM by a physical NIC, have a second virtual interface connected to a vSwitch, which your internal environment gets fed from.  I'll have to start a user page with a picture to show my network architecture... I have a few friends looking to do the same...

I've settled on Insteon for my home automation protocol but don't know what all I need to get started using insteon with LMCE.  Do I need to get an Insteon starter pack with access points (bridges) or a controller to connect to LMCE?  Or can I simply purchase insteon compatible switches/dimmers and connect the PLC to LMCE via USB?

I'm running Insteon at home myself, under Misterhouse presently.  There are some GSD drivers in LMCE, but I haven't been able to get them to work reliably with my setup.  Someone is working on proper C++ drivers with support for Insteon Groups, scenes, and Link management, so I'll try again when those drivers are ready.  You'll need a PLM (USB or Serial) to attach to the computer, and you can use dual-band devices on different legs or phases to bridge the Insteon signals between your A and B legs (rather than Access Points).  The USB PLM merely has a FTDI Serial to USB chip built in, so it'll show up as a serial port on /dev/ttyUSBx.  It's important to get a good quality Insteon network going first; there are lots of "signal suckers" for Insteon/X10 PLC signals (like UPS's, PC Power Supplies, phone chargers, etc).  You'll likely need to put those on signal filters to improve the reliability of the Insteon network.  Dual-band devices are also useful for network integrity; at minimum, you'll need two, but they can be helpful on more problematic circuits, so more than two won't be a waste.  Four seems to be a common number.  If you have Arc-Fault circuit breakers, Insteon PLC signals won't pass through the breaker, so dual-band devices are useful for bridging the comms from the rest of the house onto the arc-fault protected circuit.

Hope that helps!

/Mike

180
Developers / Re: So, what comes next after 8.10 GA?
« on: September 07, 2011, 04:23:26 am »
You want to know if there is an upgrade path?

I think it will be a reinstall as there is no manpower to focus on an upgrade.
But it is possible to do it, but it is a bit of a hassle and you are a bit on your own.

Bongo,

My question wasn't so much about _if_ there is an upgrade path (because I know there isn't right now).  It was more about is there a desire or intention to offer an upgrade path from 8.10, or will 8.10 be a frozen point in time implementation, and that all hands will be on deck working on a _clean_ 10.04 based install.

I'm just interested in knowing what the intentions are of the core devs, so I can work on some stuff that could be used in 8.10, but will more likely come to fruition in 10.04.  But there's no point in working on 8.10 if the core devs want a clean break from the legacy OS to head off application stack issues, for example.  I'm running my LMCE in a hybrid virtualized/physical test environment, so it's no skin off my nose to blow it away and rebuild on 10.04 if there's no intention of offering an in-place upgrade path.  I also don't want to waste the devs time by filing bug reports/patches that they may have no intention of addressing.

Thanks for your time!

/Mike

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