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Messages - orionsune

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Installation issues / Re: DHCP - combine with other DHCP - HOWTO?
« on: March 18, 2008, 10:09:16 pm »
without networking experience, yes your right...

I guess hari, my problem is this.  I have this problem of assuming anyone seeking help from the forums is also seeking to educate themselves.  If I don't put this information out there, then they will never educate themselves.  You see, I don't like giving people simple solutions, that reminds of the old ass saying "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime"

Basically what i'm trying to say, is I treat everyone equal, so if someone asks about getting something working, I will give them my opinion based on my own expertise, maybe dumb down some of the terminology.  And I have no problem whatsoever explaining or walking people through my proposed solutions.  Maybe they will learn something in the long run...

lol, but hari I thought everyone was entitled to their opinion.

you are claiming that most newbie users ARE going to use complicated devices like that... I doubt that very seriously.
and by the time they solve all their initial issues and start considering using other devices, they'd likely have to expertise to configure them manually anyways.

as for ip cameras, what ip camera did you use, no seriously?  Because during this discussion, I plugged my ip camera into my box and re-enabled dhcp, and it was not detected.  I didn't spend too much time with that, it could have been something I screwed up in the process, so I went my buddies house that has a vanilla install from 2 days ago, and is using dhcp... still no pnp on the ip camera.  Unfortunately this is the only ip based device I have of this nature. I really need to get this working so I have a baseline for what works for developing an alternative pnp system.  I don't want to have to buy even more stuff...

I had already started on a system and believe I have a fully working system using an EXTREMELY basic pinging for loop.  It creates a delay in detection, but I believe it will work, as soon as I get ahold of an ip device that is detected correctly by default so I have a baseline to test with, then I will share it with you guys.

For recommending to newbies?  I will continue recommending this setup to newbies with the hardcore passion of your hostility.  Why?  Because lmce boxes are inherently insecure, are bullish towards existing networks, and as I said, most newbies will never bother with other devices of the nature you claim.  I see this product mainly for home automation enthusiasts, and if you are one of those, you most likely an advanced user.  This mis-conceived notion of your about your dad not being able to set anything up, I bet he didn't find the product on his own either, you most likely introduced it to him, so I don't believe that counts.  Under normal circumstances he probably never would have found the product, downloaded it, installed it, and then know how to seek help using the forums.  This is just an assumption based on your comment about is inadequacies as a computer nerd.

Most people that have enough sense to find this forum and seek help are more than capable of using my recommended setup.

Installation issues / Re: onboard video vs video card
« on: March 18, 2008, 09:47:10 pm »
I have used a motherboard with onboard nvidia 6200, it only had a vga out connector, but I used ui3 with this setup fine.  It was shared memory, and was laggy at times, but other than that it worked.

There is a HUGE performance difference between cards with dedicated memory and cards using shared memory.  Stay away from shared memory unless your on a budget and don't plan on using any graphic intensive applications or games.
Also, if you need a motherboard with dedicated video memory, you are looking at more than 80$
In addition, if you go with an onboard video card and need dvi/hdmi out, you are still looking at way more than 80bux...
The motherboard you describe needing if you don't go with the nvidia, is going to cost you way more than 80 bux, less you go on ebay and find a used one...

My opinion, if your motherboard you have no problems running mce (in ui1), and just needs a video card.  It's going to be alot less headache for you to just upgrade the video.  If you get a new board, you are risking some incompatibilities.  A friend of mine bought a board for an lmce box, and come to find out the on-board sound card was unsupported by linux.  Have to watch things of that nature when looking for a new motherboard.  My friend ended up buying a creative labs sound card for his sound.

Ok TSCHAK, I understand completely now.  And that is the kind of unbiased non-hostile explination I expected the first time, instead of this thread turning into what it has become.

Off topic about Daniel trying to get the source functional for others to help out.  I have been trying to recompile a plugin forever, you've probably heard me talking about it in IRC, i'm going to start a new thread regarding it int he dev section later.  I didn't know that was his current focus.

teege77, man that isn't even the point... I don't care if i'm right or wrong.  I was actually expecting someone to bust out with a totally sound explination of how I was wrong... seriously, i was waiting to get shot down, which still isn't a big deal to me, i'd rather be shot down and know the proper solution than patronized and remain ignorant.  But when someone tried to shoot me down they did not even offer an explination, just that "it won't work"... and I couldn't accept that as an answer since I was currently staring at a box where it DID work.  So I started researching on why my box worked fine, and these people claim it shouldn't be.  Come to find out, both of us were wrong and right... Yes automatic pnp still works for network shares, but automatic pnp of other ip based devices not storage related will not happen.  OK, cool, so now I know and knew where to look, but then people continued to tell me it won't work and it's not a good idea etc...

I simply tried to point out the logical point of normal users will probably NEVER use those "other" ip based devices, and most likely only want the ability to play their downloaded movies on their tv from any computer/storage device in the house... and be able to weatch/record tv.  Maybe an ip camera here or there, or even one of those cisco phones... but again, if a user is gong to go that far, then most likely they are advanced users already and can handle the manual config.  Otherwise it's nothing to turn the dhcp server on for a second to configure the device then turn it back off and turn the main one back on.  I mean... logic here people...

Installation issues / Re: DHCP - combine with other DHCP - HOWTO?
« on: March 18, 2008, 09:24:59 pm »
Here is my setup, despite the OPINION of all our green starred posters.

I have a firewall linux box (not lmce box) running a very intricately constructed firewall, intrustion detection, and alerting system I designed.  So I definately was not going to accept the "Just use the lmce as your gateway and everything will work ok" as a solution.  Instead I found a MUCH simpler solution, that alot of people are claiming won't work, so you can try this at your own risk.  If it works, please post back saying so, so maybe some of these green starred posters will start pulling heads out of asses.

Ok, so i'm using as my internal network address.  My external is just a cablemodem connection directly to my linux/firewall box.  My linux firewall box (not lmce) is running my DHCP server for dynamic clients.  My lmce box is NOT running DHCP with only a single network interface.  I allow the lmce's single network interface to get an ip from my firewall DHCP server.  The virtual interface lmce creates called eth0:0 has a static address that is in the same subnet/network address as everything else.  Now, what this does exactly is turn off the automatic detection of devices such as those cisco ip based phones that can be used as orbiters, and whatever other ip based device that is not a storage device.  Now, network shares are still automatically detected as it relies on a combination of a pinging for loop using your network address for range, and netbios name broadcasting.  If all you plan on doing is the basic, watching tv and viewing movies on computers around the house, then disabling DHCP will not affect you a single bit.

As for the diskless media directors, those can work too, but with a little extra modification.  You would have to configure your other DHCP server to point to the right location for serving filesystems.  Mine works great, just use lmce's current dhcp configuration file as an example, it's really easy to setup from another DHCP server.

I was interested in writing a comprehensive guide regarding all this for these situations, but after being ridiculed and contradicted I refuse.  I had also written a MUCH better interface for firewalling for lmce for a buddy of mines lmce box (since he's using it as a gateway and dhcp server) I was eventually going to have some of these other people take a look at and consider including or building upon it in the next releases.  Since the networking ability of lmce is EXTREMELY bland and not versatile at all.  I HIGHLY RECOMMEND NOT USING THIS AS YOUR GATEWAY!!!  These lmce boxes are extremely insecure by nature, it is best to keep it behind a firewall of some sort and not using it as a firewall.

I mean int he firewall interface, you can specify a range of ports for accepting cnonections, and a range of ports for incoming forwarding.  But the destination field does not allow for the specification of ranges.  For example, torrentflux using bittornado needs a port for each torrent/download in progress.  Therefore a range of about 10 or so ports is required.  In lmce one would have to create each individual rule.  On the command line using iptables you simply specify the range in this syntax "49160:49300".  So rewrote the php templating, and iptable interfacing it was using for my own custom needs.  My needs ended up including these abilities.

Specify ranges for destination ports.
Packet Marking - \
Packet Logging - - Both are dependencies of an intrusion detection program I developed.
Packet Priority/Quality of Service
Full DMZ support.
Ability to specify "both" for protocol instead of tcp/udp
Automatically opening the ports you forward instead of having to specify twice.  (this also can be turned off for the rare need to redirect traffic internally and an open port is not needed)
Ability to specify deny rules based on IP, port, or protocol.

oh snap, i'm rambling... well there are some more features, but whatever I know this wasn't the subject... just a little worked up still over a previous thread I read today.

Users / Re: Weird dhcp/routing issue
« on: March 18, 2008, 09:08:08 pm »
Well this has been a HUGE debate between me and a bunch of other douche pickles, but to answer you question.  Not much.

You won't loose your automatic detection of network shares.
You will loose the ability to boot diskless machines, BUT, you can also configure your other dhcp server to point to the right location for serving the filesystem for the diskless machines.  This is only if your DHCP server is on a linux box and can accept versatile configuration like that.  Or if you have ssh access to your wired/wireless router, you can access your appliance based routers dhcp configuration that way also.  I suspect it's possible to reconfigure appliance based routers this way, ONLY if it uses embedded linux, I haven't actually tried, but based on my experience it's more than possible.

Other than those two most common functions you will loose the ability to automatically detect IP based phones like the cisco phone that can be used as an orbiter.  Any other IP based device that is not a file/storage sharing device will not be automatically detected.  But, if obtain some device like this with the intention of using it under lmce, you are mostly likely a slightly more advanced user and can handle the manual configuration of such devices.  If all you want is the remote file share ability, and maybe the media director ability, and already have a dhcp server/gateway you are happy with, then I highly recommend disabling DHCP on the lmce box, despite what these green star posters are saying.

That script, I saw also, was in, it's a pinging for loop.  It's only for network shares I believe.

Developers / Re: PNP without DHCP
« on: March 18, 2008, 09:00:09 pm »
Ah, I see... I can understand that, since you no longer had a need for it why bother following through, I have a crapload of projects that have died for that very reason. I think I may pickup where you left off if thats ok with you?  I am very interested in coming up with an alternative to detecting those devices without dhcp.

Thanks, i'll look at that table just for shitzandgigglez, but I just wanted an idea of what devices depend on that function.  I figured it out a while ago, but thx again.

Hey, I just had a thought.  I ran into a strange ass problem the other day, where after installing the nvidia proprietary drivers for my 6200 agp card, X wouldn't start up.  I have no idea why this is, but come to find out, the nvidia module was being loaded during startup, and that prevented X from starting up.   I removed the module from memory with a
Code: [Select]
rmmod nvidia

And X started up perfectly using the same proprietary drivers I just updated with.  That reminds me again, since you can get to a shell prompt, have you downloaded and tried updating your nvidia drivers?  I had to do this to get into AVWizard when switching from an ATI card to an NVIDIA card without re-installing.

Oh, I ended up adding 'rmmod nvidia' to one of my startup scripts, box has been running great for weeks now.

Well first of all, everyone that has had problems with it in the past, those posts were made in 2007

I haven't seen many recent posts regarding this problem, and the two posts that were made regarding this, I have responded to.  The first one, I actually fixed his problem.  This post, I attempted to help, but then all these "think we are right" dev's and contributors started telling me i'm wrong, when I have 5 systems working exactly as I have said, and as you guys say won't work.  I think you guys are EXTREMELY confused with yourselves.

After being confirmed correct by one of the more respected contributors, you guys are still telling me i'm wrong.  Wow, you guys are never going to get anywhere.  I guess, since i'm fed up with this community, now is a good time to say this.

I witness you guys working on some stupid ass projects.  You guys trying to broadcast games across all MD's, getting your obscure bluetooth phones to work as orbiters, etc... maybe you guys should be concentrating on some of the more common problems people are having.  Like this one for example.  Or mythtv freezing, oh wait I already took care of that. 

Back to the actual subject, since this is probably one of my last posts.  You guys are obviously very closed minded.  After a detail analysis on how automatic detection actually works, you still post condescending comments.  Are you guys blind or just self-absorbed?  How much more proof do I have to provide?

In retrospect:

Automatic PNP of network shares work perfectly with or without DHCP enabled.  Network shares will detect on both the external nic and the internal nic.  External nic pnp may require the internal nic to be in the same subnet.  I haven't tested this since I automaticlly put my internal virtual nic in the same subnet by default.

In addition to the pnp for shares working perfectly, it didn't require ANY extra configuration for this work.  I even have pnp working over a vpn link with no extra configuration.

Yes I understand cisco ip phones, or whatever devices you guys are wasting your time with, that are ip based, and do not advertise netbios names but recieve ip address from dhcp, yes in that case, dhcp would be required for PNP operation.  But now think logically, the majority of people that will use devices of this nature, are more than likely advanced users and would have no difficulty configuring their devices manually.  So with that said, I still stand my ground, for those of you that wish to keep your existing gateway/dhcp setup and wish to disabled the dhcp on the lmce box.  Yes this is very possible and have a very small affect on the operation of lmce.  I don't know where these other guys are getting their information, but they are obviously very confused and probably need to take another logical analysis of the detection scripts as I have several times before making any of these posts, to make sure I am not just crazy.  I even cited examples, man you guys are striking me as very dumb.  Well you know what they say, technical people usually lack all common sense (as observed here) and vice versa.  The trick is to maintain a balance.

To answer you question AGAIN Z, I haven't helped because if you do your own research (as I did and cited examples) you'll see everyone single one of those were made in 2007, or the user had already been lulled into a false sense of proper configuration by you guys and is happy and stable already, and I just started participating in the community last month.  So why am I going to bring back old posts like that for users who most likely don't even use lmce anymore?  Why do you ask stupid ass questions Z?  I really did respect all of you guys until I started watching you in IRC chat and how hostile and closed minded you guys are on the forums.  There are a few of you I do still respect, collinjones, hari, daniel, and some others i can't remember at the moment, you guys have shown nothing but open-minded honest analysis and resolution of just about everyones problem you know something about.  I will just refrain from participating in this community and just become like the other 90% of lmce users and just search for information on the forums to help us analyze our problems and screw everyone else.  I mean, thats basically what you guys do, so... no more posting from me.  This place is too hostile and too full of douche pickles.  And yes, you can be a programmer, network engineer, etc... and still be a fool.


I also ran lmce without dhcp for some weeks. When you search the forum I even came up with a solution to use arpwatch to feed the dhcp log parser.
Yes, if one is skilled as you, of course you can run lmce without dhcp. If you trigger device detection, create records on the other dhcp server and use things like next-server statements you will have a working system. But that setup is not for the newbie. They will wonder why the plugged in squeezebox don't work or why the cisco phone does not configure itself.

So I'm sure you understand why the general recommendation is to use LMCE as dhcp server. And its the only way to have this beast working as an appliance.

Now I use LMCE as dhcp server.. i have enough hazzle with IT at work.. so why make my life harder. LMCE handles that pretty good. And if you are that skilled it's easy to seperate networks and make a distinct vlan for lmce.

best regards,
But hari, what i'm trying to say, is I have not done any of that.  The only modification I had to make, was my actual dhcp server setup to serve MD's and use LMCE box's filesystem instead of it's own.  I've made no other modification, and my shares were still detected fine.  I guess I was trying to say, for the normal user who will never get as far as using ip phones, and the sort... that this setup would suffice if they don't want to use it as a drop-in replacement of their current router.  Considering they'll probably never use devices that require the dhcp for detection.

I guess it comes down to whatever works and is easier for the user.  For me, tt was easier to disable dhcp and use lmce box as a client node, instead of a gateway.  My main reason for doing this is that i'm stubborn and don't like being told something isn't possible.  No just kidding, I did it because I spent alot of time and effort setting up my linux firewall for intrustion detection and alertting (i do network security irl), I didn't feel like trying to set all that up again under Ubuntu, because i'd have to learn a new flavor on top of the footwork (fingerwork, whichever you prefer) needed to set it up to begin with.  So it really was easier for me the way I did it.

Yes and I read your post about the arp method, and I was wondering why it was never implemented, I like it alot and believe it to be a GREAT choice for people in this situation.

Users / Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
« on: March 18, 2008, 12:54:17 am »
I'll add to the pessimism....
I find that the boards are just too generic (Users/ Installation issues / Archives)
It is not the case that you find someone there and then - online that knows the problem that you are facing and its solution.
In a generic pool such as "Users", your post is lost too quickly and you never get your question answered.
I think the guys who are developing are doing hard work but they are not setting up the forums in a smart way to support the product.

I might disagree with the conributing developers and techies on stuff, but I have to speak up for them here.

I've been on many boards, some with simple categories like this one, and some with multitudes of categories.  If there were more categories, people will still be posting in the wrong sections... it's just an inherit trait of human beings to not read/think before they post/act.

Not setting the forums up in a smart way to support the product?  I've used the forums to solve random issues of mine, very successfully.  I've found all the support i've needed so far, there are some really great people here.  Which brings me to why I am shocked at your "smart way to support the product" comment.  This is a community of mostly hobbyist that all contribute to solve each others issues and bugs.  If you can't contribute, then don't complain.  I don't recommend this product for any Novice users or under anyways.  At least not in it's current state. Remember, free product = community support, paid product = better support.

Installation issues / Re: AGP / HDCP enabled card ???
« on: March 18, 2008, 12:33:45 am »
If you don't see one listed here;

Then, if it does exist, it hasn't been tested, or it hasn't been reported as working/not working by any users.

Developers / Re: PNP without DHCP
« on: March 18, 2008, 12:30:34 am »
I like it, but hari, can you tell me what that function detects other than MDs?  Network share detection seems to be independent of this.

A pinging for loop for the current subnet would work, maybe a little on the slow side without the right tools.

As long as the device can serve netbios names, the method seems alright, granted that is for network shares not misc ip based devices.

This is such an old topic with no replies, but a freaking EXCELLENT idea... how come this was never implemented?

Disagree with who TSCHAK?  Because I have 3 systems in different houses currently running with disabled DHCP servers and everything has been detected perfectly so far.  MD's work after some tinkering with my other DHCP server to point clients to the right server for the remote filesystems, etc...  I even have OpenVPN setup on all 3, and all 3 houses share each others media shares... even the remote shares at the other houses are automatically detected once I configured OpenVPN for encrypted tunnel method (not bridging) and adding the appropiate routes to each network gateway...

So, what deetection scripts rely on DHCP?  I have also looked through all the scripts, most detection happens through NetBIOS names, not the  DHCP server.  Are there other devices that depend on it?  Like i said, my MD's work fine after some tinkering with my other DHCP server.  Let's see, network shares all work and detected just fine without dhcp.  It never detected my IP camera with dhcp enabled, so I assume that is a manual setup only deal.  Am I missing any other kind of network related devices that are autodetected other than network shares and MDs?  Maybe those cisco phones, since i'm never going to mess with that, my wireless plan can beat any hardwired or voip plan i've seen so far so thats pointless unless i want to waste a bunch of money on an orbiter/phone hybrid device... seems like a waste...  All the automation stuff isn't network related.... I admit I have not gotten very far with all the equipment lmce supports.  the only stuff I plan on messing with, i've already got running so far.  network shares, ip camera with motion detection, openvpn, bluetooth phone orbiter, lighting control, and 1 MD. 

I seriously don't understand you guys... I mean, I come in here because I liked the product and wanted to contribute my troubleshooting skills.  For starters my file shares didn't work correctly out of the box, but you guys defend it as if there was something wrong with my setup.  It turned out to be a different in how the wizard asks for user/pass between UI1 and UI2/3... later to find out if you use !@#...etc symbols in the pass, lmce won't mount that either.  I had to resolve this issue with some guidance from the community, and after reviewing the huge post, it had nothing to do with my setup or hardware, it was the unreliable nature of the detection scripts and device wizards.

Then myth would lock up, and from what I understand this was a big problem among alot of users.  It happen to be the way mythtv was called from the MythTV_Player plugin, I had to modify and recompile the code, and it was accepted as an official fix and applied to the code.

Do I need to write the guide now, so you guys can see how it's done?  It's nothing special, with only 1 network card, you give both eth0 and eth0:0 different IP addresses but in the same subnet, for example for eth0 and for eth0:0, then disable dhcp server and everything works perfectly. 

But i've got people telling me it's not possible?

You guys are kind of hostile when it comes to what you "think" is right... the word of the day should be "open-minded" and not "i'm right all the time because i've got green stars on my name"....

tschak, I found this comment you made in another post...
(b) use the Single NIC configuration defined in the wiki. However, if you turn off DHCP, you lose network plug and play, and will have to define all of your network resources in the Web Admin manually.

Except this was a response to another person posts saying this
3.  All my media is stored on a network file server.  I have read on the forums here that this is supported out of the box.  I wish this was correct.  In order to even get the MC to even detect the file server, I had to disable the DHCP server and Firewall (already have one, at a loss as to why there is one installed by default).  Now the MC detects the server and the shares,

Did you miss the part where he said he disabled his DHCP server and then it was detected?  His share still didn't work, but he says it picked it up.

and in the same post, he repeated

Once I disable the DHCP Server and the Firewall the system, the system stops trying to act as a router and automatically detects the file server and all of the network shares
You guys crack me up, i'm searching through other threads as i'm writing this, and I see soooooo many people talking about how lmce HAS to have dhcp running to detect anything, and it HAS to be setup as it was intended.... this is total bullshit... have any of you guys even tried? wow this is ridiculus, I can't believe so many of the contributing devs believe this, is there something i'm missing?  I mean seriously... i'm sitting here, watching my shit work perfectly fine without dhcp ont he lmce box.  If I am wrong, then please explain/elaborate because i'd love to know why i have 3 boxes and 2 virtual machines detecting shit just fine without a dhcp server running.

Look, I have 3 production lmce box's, and 2 boxes in a vmware machine, and all 5 of these has dhcp disabled and all 5 of them also detect all my network shares AND configures them perfectly.

Here is another set of quotations from a thread where I solved the guys problem for him.  He started off saying

How do I open the external interface on the core for file sharing?

My core is on our internal network.  I have the external interface obtaining an address from our router and the internal interface connected to an independant switch that all the MD's are connected to.

I advised him to disable his firewall and he responds with

Works beautifully, thanks.

now in retrospect, he says his automatic detection of network shares on his external interface works beautifully now... well his externel interface certainly isn't serving DHCP address, so why did his network shares get detected?  simple, because it used Netbios names not the DHCP server to find shares.

here is a thread where they discussed disabling dhcp, and never showed back up to report problems...

Go to the webadmin page, then go to Advanced > Network > Network Settings. From there you can unselect the DHCP server and save the page to finish the job. Had the same problem, the installer seemed to ignore my request that it not be a dhcp server.

here is another
I just didnt understand why MCE is trying to setup 2 IPs with one card, especially since I turned off DHCP server on the MCE machine.

I think im good though.
this thread also discussed disabling dhcp, and they appeared to be satisfied also.

Then I found this in /usr/pluto/bin the file and in that file I see
Code: [Select]
/usr/bin/tail -F /var/log/syslog | grep --line-buffered 'dhcpd: ' | bash -x /usr/pluto/bin/
So I understand how dhcp is SUPPOSED to help the pnp functions... by calling when it sees a new dhcpd request from the syslog.  So to make sure i'm not making myself look like a fool here, I deleted all my network shares (by the way, to get them fully deleted so they'll be detected again and not ignored, I have to manually use somthing like phpmyadmin to delete the shares/fileservers ip address from plut_main -> pnpqueue table.) enabled my dhcp server, and watching /var/log/pluto/dhcp_pnp.log, this file remained empty as I was adding my automatically deteced network share... so with my next fileserver I watched the syslog for dhcpd entries just like the script is, when I saw a dhcpd entry for my second fileserver that booted up, I checked the /var/log/pluto/dhcp_pnp.log and again still empty, so I watched top, and never even saw the script being called... is this an old feature or something?  Maybe this is just to help determine if a device is online or not?  Or is it used for detecting other kinds of network devices like I mentioned earlier.

For the normal user who will probably only want to use the TVTuner, Remote Network Shares, this configuration of mine will work perfectly.  Beyond that, as I said to start with, i'm not sure.  But the basics... network share detection, works great.  In fact, after reviewing /usr/pluto/bin/ and /usr/plut/bin/ reveal no depencies on the dhcp server... and in fact, it's using netbios names, and a for loop using the current subnet to ping ip's.  Not dhcp.

Besides, after research all this, I already see a very simple way to enable an external DHCP server AND retain lmce  pnp function as you guys claim.

If those scripts are operating the way I think, then using an NFS share exported from the machine where the DHCP server is running, with the dhcp configuration files, the lease file, and the syslog all residing on this exported share... then mount it under lmce, create symbolic links for the dhchp server config files and leases file... then point the script I mentioned to the nfsmountedshare/syslog instead of it's own....  eh.. just a wild stab in the dark...

back on subject... this is neither a rant or a rave, this is a plea for you guys to understand the most common function of network shares is NOT affected by the dhcp server... and I would honestly like to know what is, in case I run into this problem in the future with other network based devices.

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