LinuxMCE Forums

General => Feature requests & roadmap => Topic started by: domotiqa.com on February 17, 2010, 02:53:57 pm

Title: hdmi cec
Post by: domotiqa.com on February 17, 2010, 02:53:57 pm
here an interresting project:
http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1261237176/60

to control device througt hdmi cable !
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: jimbodude on February 17, 2010, 05:09:43 pm
part of the standard, but the communication isn't standardized:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#CEC
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: domotiqa.com on February 18, 2010, 01:21:48 pm
ok however, if you look in the project some people stores the command that work (on/off...)

Could be cool to use hdmi command instead of IR
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: jimbodude on February 18, 2010, 02:36:01 pm
Yes, it would be similar to the RS232 interfaces - where every vendor has their own way of doing things.
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: totallymaxed on February 18, 2010, 11:57:42 pm
Yes, it would be similar to the RS232 interfaces - where every vendor has their own way of doing things.

Exactly right. Thats the basic problem CEC... it will end up being a different implementation for each vendors hardware. Therefore another mess :-(

Andrew
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: domotiqa.com on February 21, 2010, 09:15:09 am
yep, however, if you have a look in the link of my previous post, you'll see that:http://www.andrewncarr.com/hdmi/hdmi-cec-codes.xls

A good start !
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: jimbodude on February 22, 2010, 04:50:22 pm
My point was that CEC doesn't seem to solve any problems that RS232 doesn't solve, except one less cable.
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: wierdbeard65 on February 22, 2010, 06:22:54 pm
Just browsing and stumbles across this one.

My TV does have HDMI, but not RS232, another problem this would solve.....
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: jimbodude on February 22, 2010, 06:32:54 pm
My TV does have HDMI, but not RS232, another problem this would solve.....

Assuming that your TV can handle CEC communications...  As I understand it, most do not support those features yet.
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: wierdbeard65 on February 22, 2010, 07:02:02 pm
Damn!   >:(

As they say, as one door closes another one slams in your face!  :'(
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: dowster on October 13, 2010, 06:05:55 am
from what ive heard every device model has its own id code for its hdmi, maybe have a trainer built into lmce and have it tell you what buttons to press so it can capture the codes, then upload them to the wiki or something. im not good at coding yet so im just throwing this out there. scrutinize away  :P
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: sambuca on October 13, 2010, 08:07:54 am
Unfortunately, there are very limited (if any) support for accessing CEC through graphics cards. This is a hardware and driver issue, which we have no control over.

When/if that is solved, your suggestion might work. But putting the codes in the wiki is a big NO-NO!! We have a device template system for such things (this is how IR codes are stored today). I suggest you try to understand device templates, as it will make it easier to understand the system

best regards,
sambuca
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: posde on October 13, 2010, 09:25:32 am
Regarding HDMI-CEC, as pointed out elsewhere in the forum. There is a USB2HDMI-CEC device available. If anyone is willing to do dev work on integrating it into our system, or sponsor other people to do so, lmce has all the plumbing in place to control devices via HDMI-CEC.
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: wierdbeard65 on October 13, 2010, 02:47:21 pm
Pos,

I've done a quick search of the forum and can't find the thread you refer to. I appreciate it may come to nothing, but I'd like to monitor the thread anyway  ;D CAn you post a link to it please?

Thanks!
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: posde on October 13, 2010, 05:11:47 pm
The device I talked about was this: http://rainshadowtech.com/default_files/HDMICECUSB.htm
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: wierdbeard65 on October 13, 2010, 07:46:41 pm
Looks interesting and, from the Blurb, should work with both Linux and my TV. A little expensive, but there you go  :-\

What is not clear is if it can be placed "in line" between the graphics card and the TV. If not, you would end up with 2 HDMI cables to the TV which partially defeats the object!

I may contact this guy to see what the possibilities are - might be an interesting first journey into device / template design....
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: posde on October 14, 2010, 10:42:46 am
good luck and keep us posted.
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: Sigg3.net on January 03, 2011, 04:11:37 pm
Apparently, CEC-wiring is mandatory in HDMI but product implementation voluntary.

According to Wikipedia different trade names for the IMPLEMENTED CEC are:
Quote
Anynet (Samsung); Aquos Link (Sharp); BRAVIA Sync (Sony); HDMI-CEC (Hitachi); Kuro Link (Pioneer); CE-Link and Regza Link (Toshiba); RIHD (Remote Interactive over HDMI) (Onkyo); SimpLink (LG); HDAVI Control, EZ-Sync, VIERA Link (Panasonic); EasyLink (Philips); and NetCommand for HDMI (Mitsubishi).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#CEC

The specification is built on AV.Link, which is used in SCART.
You can download the HDMI 1.3a specification for free by filling in the form here: http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/specification.aspx

It exists a HDMI-CEC to USB and RS-232 bridge/converter (http://rainshadowtech.com/default_files/HDMICECUSB.htm) as featured on Hackaday (http://hackaday.com/2010/08/24/adventures-in-consumer-electronics-control-cec/). This guy Valkyriemt made it work for him: Controlling Volume… Look Ma, no extra Wires! (http://valkyriemt.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!BFB1691C42ECE9AF!180.entry)

A white paper on what this device does and how to use it can be downloaded here: PDF (http://rainshadowtech.com/downloads/HDMICECtoUSBandRS232v7.pdf)

Rainshadowtech.com which makes the device writes:
Quote
(HDMI-CEC to USB and RS-232 converter) device has been demonstrated to work with TVs from Samsung, Sharp, Sony, Toshiba, LG, Panasonic, and Mitsubishi.  TV CEC capabilities vary widely.  Many recent models can be powered on, off, and have the external HDMI input source chosen via CEC.
an
Quote
This device could be connected into the HDMI cable between the TV and the PC, but that is not necessary. Because the CEC bus is a single wire bus between all components, the device can be plugged into any HDMI input in the Home Theater system. The advantage of this approach is that the integrity of the cable (and therefore the quality of the signal) between the TV and the PC does not need to compromised by adding this device to it.

As far as I understand it having merely looked at the HDMI specs, the specification allows for pass-thru signalling; meaning one sleeping device will still pass through messages (such as SHUT DOWN) to other connected devices that are on or off. In other words, HDMI cables can become an extension of the network cabling for LinuxMCE to talk to devices directly the last-three-feet.
--

I personally have a Toshiba REGZA 42" (42XV550P) Television that I bought a couple of years back, and it doesn't have a serial RS232 controller. It does have 3 HDMI connectors though. I am not much of an electronics guy either, but I think we should be able to wing it.

The remote control for my Toshiba REGZA 42" has its own REGZA Link mode, which is Toshiba's implementation of HDMI's CEC, though sending them using IR. Showcase: http://www.regza-asia.com/technology/technology_regzalink.asp?cat=sc4

If I can record the IR signals sent to the television in REGZA Link mode, I should be able to send the same signals from a computer to the television (and other CEC devices), given I have a way to interface with HDMI with on the command-line and a HDMI controller on the computer. From this it should be possible to create a device template or "device class template" (e.g. REGZA-device), no?
The CEC specification has its own addressing scheme (think DHCP) with logical addresses 4, 8 and 11 reserved for playback devices.

The CEC wiring IS MANDATORY so you would not need more than one HDMI cable between computer and television, since the wiring for the CEC signalling is already inside the cable (in other words, HDMI cables send CEC along with VIDEO and AUDIO). But I don't know exactly what tty you could use (if any).. Just some thoughts on the matter..
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: Sigg3.net on January 04, 2011, 06:33:46 pm
Some of the hackers on the arduino.cc forums are working on a chip with some success: http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1261237176/0

One user Phil123 is working on a breadboard design that:
Quote
tAt the end there will be a breakout board for the Arduino which has 2 HDMI connectors (in/out). One will be connected to the TV set, the other to a HTPC. The CEC in/out will be sent/received via the USB connection to a PC. That way a HTPC can be driven by the remote control of the TV set.
URL:  http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1261237176/30

He put up sourcecode here: http://code.google.com/p/cec-arduino/
Circuit schema here: http://code.google.com/p/cec-arduino/wiki/ElectricalInterface

One Andrew put up a nice excel table of the opcodes: http://www.andrewncarr.com/hdmi/hdmi-cec-codes.xls

Of course, this all amounts to using the CEC hacked android breadboard and not the built-in HDMI in the mobo/VGA cards. But I thought I should mention it anyway.

According to Mark E. DeYoung neither ATI nor nVidia is building CEC into their cards (source (http://markedeyoung.blogspot.com/2010/11/hdmi-cec-interface-for-pc.html))
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: valent on January 10, 2011, 10:41:23 am
Regarding HDMI-CEC, as pointed out elsewhere in the forum. There is a USB2HDMI-CEC device available. If anyone is willing to do dev work on integrating it into our system, or sponsor other people to do so, lmce has all the plumbing in place to control devices via HDMI-CEC.

I'll be glad to sponsor dev work regarding HDMI-CEC feature for lmce. But as my budget is proabably not enough alone has if some lmce dev says how much they would need to get this done maybe we can try setting up an pledge bank or something like that? What do you say?
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: kwikwai.phil on January 20, 2011, 03:56:40 pm
Hi guys,

actually I guess I have something for you.
Have a look to kwikwai. It's a HDMI-CEC bridge to ethernet, usb and serial.
You might find it helpful.

Now if you still prefer to develop a solution by yourself, give a try to cec-o-matic, a free online CEC frames encoding/decoding tool.
It should help.

Regards,
Philippe
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: posde on January 20, 2011, 05:54:20 pm
Phillippe,

it might interesting for you, if people could pnp your bridge, and have LinuxMCE control the devices via HDMI. Maybe you light to look into writing a device driver, so LinuxMCE users can be come kwikwai customers :)
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: wierdbeard65 on January 20, 2011, 06:09:15 pm
Phillippe,

I just had a quick look and it would seem to be a very interesting little device, until I got to the store.

The price is quoted as 345 Swill Francs, which equates to around £225 or $360 (US). I don't know about others, but that as waaaaay too much for me to consider, unless it can do something amazing that UIRT can't do. :-[

If you add the cost of the MD and the TV, it becomes a very expensive installation when the practical benefit is actually quite limited (as far as I can see).

Please tell me that either the price is wrong, or I'm missing something here (or preferably both!)
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: posde on January 20, 2011, 06:14:05 pm
wierdbeard65,

it is not a cheap thing, but if it works for multiple devices it is comparable to GC-100. And I prefer to not have a flaky IR connection.
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: wierdbeard65 on January 20, 2011, 06:16:25 pm
if it works for multiple devices
It only has 1 HDMI pass-through, so one would be needed for each TV/MD combo, wouldn't it?

I'm sure there are those that can, and will, justify the expense. Sadly, I can't  :'(
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: totallymaxed on January 20, 2011, 10:03:13 pm
wierdbeard65,

it is not a cheap thing, but if it works for multiple devices it is comparable to GC-100. And I prefer to not have a flaky IR connection.

I'm afraid its one per TV...not really viable at that price.

Andrew
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: posde on January 21, 2011, 09:21:10 am
I don't know enough about HDMI-CEC, but from what I've gathered, you need one "control point", in the HDMI chain, i.e. for example between MD and AV receiver, which would control both, the AV receiver and any equipment behind the receiver.
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: totallymaxed on January 21, 2011, 12:21:27 pm
I don't know enough about HDMI-CEC, but from what I've gathered, you need one "control point", in the HDMI chain, i.e. for example between MD and AV receiver, which would control both, the AV receiver and any equipment behind the receiver.

Yep...thats what I meant. One per display and anything in the chain to it. The problems comes when you have another HDMI 'chain' on another input of say a Home Theatre surround amp... as far as I know you will need a separate HDMI-CEC for each chain of devices (Pioneer Amps definitely work like this at the moment).

Andrew
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: posde on January 21, 2011, 12:23:58 pm
Let's see if kwikwai.phil has anything to say to this :)
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: kwikwai.phil on January 21, 2011, 01:47:28 pm
Here I am.

CEC is a bus so one kwikwai is enough for all components in the HDMI tree (TV, receiver, blue ray, ...).
However, as specified by the standard, the tree has a single device at the top (the TV), so yes in theory you'd need one kwikwai per TV.
But it may work anyway in practice with several TVs according to the use case. For instance, switching off several TVs may be possible.

For the price, we're just starting and our volumes are low. Plus we're providing a complete solution that is installed and working in minutes.
So the moment, the price remains 345 CHF, available immediately in glorious red :)
That said, we'd happy to heavily discount one device for anybody with the time, inclination and competence to build a driver as suggested above. Interested parties, please contact us directly (via PM or email).

Regards,
Philippe
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: hari on January 21, 2011, 05:45:39 pm
When you'll provide me with a device I'll write a driver. My $%*#&#% Sharp Aquos LC-46 LE600 does not support power on via RS232...

br Hari
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: kwikwai.phil on January 24, 2011, 09:33:57 am
Hi Hari,

We propose you our kwikwai for 100 CHF.
If you're interested, drop me a message with your address so that I can compute the shipping costs.
Within EU, these costs are usually CHF 8.-

Regards,
Philippe
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: hari on January 24, 2011, 03:04:01 pm
Hi Hari,

We propose you our kwikwai for 100 CHF.
If you're interested, drop me a message with your address so that I can compute the shipping costs.
Within EU, these costs are usually CHF 8.-

Regards,
Philippe
I'm not going to pay anything for the device if you want me to write a lmce driver for it. I can still use my TV with the Irtrans Ethernet...

br Hari
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: kwikwai.phil on January 24, 2011, 04:19:09 pm
Fair enough.
Anybody else interested by the offer ?

Regards,
Philippe
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: totallymaxed on January 25, 2011, 12:07:52 am
Fair enough.
Anybody else interested by the offer ?

Regards,
Philippe

Hi Philippe,

If you'd like your product to be supported with an LMCE driver then why not provide a unit to Hari in return for him creating it. Its what other have done (including my own company) in the past - and i think its a fair exchange.

All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: hari on February 11, 2011, 03:31:43 pm
I did receive a kwikwai unit and it works very nice! I'm already working on a driver. So if you want to control your Blu-Ray player, AVR and TV with a single unit, you should get one quickly.

br Hari
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: totallymaxed on February 11, 2011, 03:48:35 pm
I did receive a kwikwai unit and it works very nice! I'm already working on a driver. So if you want to control your Blu-Ray player, AVR and TV with a single unit, you should get one quickly.

br Hari

Cool!

So any compatibility issues? what flavours of TV/BluRay,AVR etc have you had a smooth ride on?

All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: DragonK on February 11, 2011, 03:54:45 pm
SO Hari,
If i understand corectly, I can control, AMP, DVD,TV and possibly PS3 via the kwikwai unit, using an orbiter?
This would be a better solution than USB-UIRT......


Karel
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: phenigma on February 11, 2011, 09:42:51 pm
SO Hari,
If i understand corectly, I can control, AMP, DVD,TV and possibly PS3 via the kwikwai unit, using an orbiter?
This would be a better solution than USB-UIRT......

I'm not Hari but... what you suggest is correct, likely even for the PS3.  I am currently controlling my PS3 (via HDMI) with IR codes sent to my TV, essentially using my TV as an IR to CEC converter for connected devices.  I could see investing in one of these units to control most everything and rid myself of IR based control.

J.
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: DragonK on February 11, 2011, 09:59:58 pm
I'm still trying to get my head around this,
This is their reply,
Quote
Hi Karel,

I guess there is a confusion because of the 2 HDMI ports you saw on kwikwai.

Actually, with the current model, you can only control one HDMI bus.
Having two HDMI ports on kwikwai is only a way to ease the installation when there is no available HDMI port on any of the devices you want to control.
If a HDMI port is available anywhere on one HDMI device, just connect to it, and the second HDMI port on kwikwai is not used.
You can have a look on our wiki for further information :
http://wiki.kwikwai.com/index.php?title=Device_installation

Nevertheless, as defined by the HDMI specification, one HDMI bus is composed of up to 16 devices.
It supports only one display, named "sink" usually the TV, and several sources. here is the list as per the HDMI 1.3a specification.
 

Therefore with one kwikwai, you can control several devices, but all on the same HDMI bus.
In the future, we'll probably develop a model supporting several buses, as for a HDMI matrix.

Hopefully I answered your question.
Please feel free to contact me, if you have any further question.

Best regards,
Philippe Landry
I'm still trying to make sens of it

Karel
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: hari on February 11, 2011, 10:04:01 pm
SO Hari,
If i understand corectly, I can control, AMP, DVD,TV and possibly PS3 via the kwikwai unit, using an orbiter?
This would be a better solution than USB-UIRT......


Karel
yes
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: gtsupport on February 25, 2011, 10:16:00 am
Damn, I wish I'd seen this a week ago, my USBUIRT is on its way, and could now be redundant before its even arrived!

Whats the status of this in LinuxMCE at the moment, will it be PNP now or in the very near future?

Everything in my media system is via HDMI so I'm very keen on seeing this work.  I use one of the 'NEET' HDMI 5 way switches for everything which is a great little device btw, it allows the control signals through even for those devices which aren't selected.

Hmm, actually remember seeing a template for a HDMI-CEC interface, number 2163.  Is that for this device?

Matt.
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: hari on February 26, 2011, 03:01:28 pm
Whats the status of this in LinuxMCE at the moment, will it be PNP now or in the very near future?
yes, will be pnp

Quote
Hmm, actually remember seeing a template for a HDMI-CEC interface, number 2163.  Is that for this device?
yes
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: DragonK on February 26, 2011, 07:18:56 pm
Hari,

Sorry for all the questions, but how many devices can be controlled with 1 unit? Or do we need a unit for each device we want to control?

Karel
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: posde on February 27, 2011, 12:18:24 am
All HDMI devices which are HDMI-CEC away and exist on an HDMI line can be controlled. i.e.

PC -> HDMI-CEC -> AV-Receiver -> TV

AV-Receiver and TV can be controlled by the hdmi-cec device.
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: Techstyle on February 27, 2011, 02:56:24 am
has anybody tried this device?

http://rainshadowtech.com/default_files/HDMICECUSB.htm (http://rainshadowtech.com/default_files/HDMICECUSB.htm)

wouldn't this do the same as the other device for a 3rd of the price?
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: DragonK on September 29, 2011, 10:52:25 am
Hi Guys,

Has anyone used the HDMI-CEC function?

Karel
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: hari on October 04, 2011, 04:30:11 pm
Working on that, got postponed because of the 0810 feature freeze
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: DragonK on November 14, 2011, 10:28:20 am
Hi Hari,

Any progress?
Will this be available on both 0810 and 1004?

Karel
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: valent on May 08, 2012, 10:09:44 am
this is an old post, but have there been any new hdmi cec devices since? Have prices droped?
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: totallymaxed on May 08, 2012, 03:07:08 pm
this is an old post, but have there been any new hdmi cec devices since? Have prices droped?

Dianemo S supports the following CEC interface from Pulse-8;

http://www.pulse-eight.com/store/products/104-usb-hdmi-cec-adapter.aspx (http://www.pulse-eight.com/store/products/104-usb-hdmi-cec-adapter.aspx)

Its only £29.99 GBP so its far cheaper than any earlier CEC interface we've seen. Its supported in the current release of Dianemo S for volume up/down, Volume mute on/off and Power Standby on/off. There will be broader support for the other aspects of CEC in future releases of Dianemo S.

The Pulse-8 is nicely built and very compact and the CEC lib seems to work well to. We've had zero problems with our units to date.

All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: DragonK on May 08, 2012, 03:25:08 pm
And LMCE?
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: RayBe on May 08, 2012, 04:27:04 pm
Yeah, i am also very curious in wether this works with LMCE or not. :)
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: totallymaxed on May 08, 2012, 04:38:19 pm
Yeah, i am also very curious in wether this works with LMCE or not. :)

In LinuxMCE there would need to be a new CEC device created etc and new UI screens too. In Dianemo these have been created and are working. Our devices use our DCEwhisperer framework and our UI skin is different too.

The CEC lib is available & common so it could be integrated in LinuxMCE for sure.

All the best

Andrew
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: Sigg3.net on June 16, 2012, 02:33:56 pm
The CEC lib is available & common so it could be integrated in LinuxMCE for sure.
This one?
http://libcec.pulse-eight.com/
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: Sigg3.net on June 16, 2012, 03:32:39 pm
Also, for everyone interested; http://www.pulse-eight.com/store/products/104-usb-hdmi-cec-adapter.aspx
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: totallymaxed on June 16, 2012, 05:15:32 pm
This one?
http://libcec.pulse-eight.com/

Yep that's it.

Andrew
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: valent on September 03, 2012, 01:38:38 pm
Why not just use Raspberry Pi as CEC controller? It is much more powerfull device and even cheaper, not to mention that it can run media center itself...
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: wierdbeard65 on September 03, 2012, 08:31:44 pm
Does the Pi have the capability to interact on the CEC bus, or is it like most graphics cards....?

If it does, cool!
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: hari on September 03, 2012, 10:57:04 pm
you can interact in both directions via libCEC. So writing a DCE device is straightforward.
Title: Re: hdmi cec
Post by: phenigma on September 04, 2012, 12:30:59 am
Does the Pi have the capability to interact on the CEC bus, or is it like most graphics cards....?

Yes, the Pi has CEC capability.

J.