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General => Users => Topic started by: kyfalcon on September 11, 2009, 06:01:48 pm

Title: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: kyfalcon on September 11, 2009, 06:01:48 pm
Did anyone see engadget yesterday talk about the CETON cableCARD tuner? 4 HD tuners on one mini-PCI. I went to there site and couldn't find any ino on whether they had a llinux driver or not. It seems that they have them for other devices using the same chip set. This would be a great way to bring live tv into linuxMCE.
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: Meldawn on December 02, 2009, 06:20:32 pm
I know this is an old thread but I think it is too important to ignore. I have sent a couple emails to the company asking if there will be Linux support and have not got a response. If the LinuxMCE community starts sending emails they will see that there is support for the product, they might give some additional info on the card.

Here is a link to the company.

http://www.cetoncorp.com/ProductsWMC.php

I will update if I hear back from them.
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: tschak909 on December 02, 2009, 07:36:36 pm
...

guys,

there is no protected media path, no DRM path for Linux.

There will be NO support of _ANY_ OCURs. NONE. ZERO. NOT GONNA HAPPEN. EVER.

Every six months these threads pop up, and every six months, I have to explain this. It's not our fault, write your congressmen.

-Thom
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: Meldawn on December 02, 2009, 10:01:26 pm
If what i am hearing you say is true then how does one go about watching a digital cable service in the States? Also, what operating system do appliances like TiVo use?
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: tschak909 on December 02, 2009, 10:09:30 pm
You can only use devices that can tune and demodulate the raw QAM256 signals, such as the HDHomeRun.

This does not include many channels on cable providers, as many of them (especially the HD channels) are ENCRYPTED, and require conditional access modules (CAM) to decrypt them.

In the case of CableCARD, one of the REQUIRED stipulations for CableCARD compliance, is a rigourous certification process which tests protected data paths within the decryption subsystems of a given reciever device. This means, that the underlying operating systems and their media stacks must provide working DRM in compliance with the standards that CableLabs has set forward, which have been approved by those that CableLabs answers to, namely, Hollywood, and the individual channel networks.

With the TiVO, while they are using the Linux kernel, their entire media stack is locked down by DRM, and can not be manipulated, patched, or extended in any way, the entire data path has been deemed to be "secure" by CableLabs.

But, you would KNOW this, if you ACTUALLY DUG IN, AND USED __GOOGLE__ FOR MORE THAN FIVE MINUTES. Everybody is affected by this. Windows, Linux, MacOS, doesn't matter.

These devices require an underlying operating system that does everything in its power to prevent the user from copying the resulting unencrypted stream, once it has passed through the CAM. A desktop Linux distribution does not have this, LinuxMCE does not have this, therefore we can not, and will not ever support these devices.

Please, do some research.

-Thom
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: Meldawn on December 02, 2009, 10:33:39 pm
ok.. well.. If you look a the number of posts I have made you would see that I am in fact new to LinuxMCE. I see it as a great system with a lot of potential. There are many things about the process that I do not understand and the only way to understand is to ask questions.

If you are so jaded to the process then do us all a favor and DON'T REPLY!

I'm sure there is some other user that would be willing to give a couple of new users some direction. If there is an other user that would be willing to have a civilized conversation with someone that wants to learn, please send me a private message.

Thom,
   I hope someone hugs you soon. It sounds like you need it.
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: kyfalcon on December 02, 2009, 10:41:36 pm
Thom, maybe I misread the press release but it sounded like the whole DRM issue was relaxed. Part of the old cableCard process was that it was only an OEM solution, but now anyone can buy these cards and build their own systems. In fact I think I read somewhere else that Ceton has another card using the same chips that they have linux drivers for. If this is ever going to be the whole house solution multiple HD TV thru something other than an HDHomeRun is going to be a necesity.
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: skeptic on December 02, 2009, 11:35:03 pm
Thom, maybe I misread the press release but it sounded like the whole DRM issue was relaxed. Part of the old cableCard process was that it was only an OEM solution, but now anyone can buy these cards and build their own systems. In fact I think I read somewhere else that Ceton has another card using the same chips that they have linux drivers for.
Not so sound skeptical, but links?  While I'd love for this to be the case, and from the outside looking in it seems a better business model, but I have my doubts.  If there was a cablecard capable tuner that worked with LMCE and comcast I'd  buy one on the spot, as would several others.  However, as Thom mentioned above, until the DRM requirements go away this just isn't possible.
Quote
If this is ever going to be the whole house solution multiple HD TV thru something other than an HDHomeRun is going to be a necesity.

I'm not following what you are saying.  If you are saying HDHR will not work for a multiple MD setup with HD, you are incorrect.  Or more specifically, it depends on the cable company and what channels you are referring to.  For the moment at least, I have Comcast and I'm able to get several HD stations through HDHR.  In fact, they keep adding more unencrypted digital stations and I have very few programs that still get recorded on my old analog tuner.  Granted, this doesn't work for premium stations as those are encrypted, but I get all the major networks and a number of other stations in digital.  HD vs SD (both in digital) still seems to be station and/or program specific but that wouldn't change with a CableCard setup. 
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: kyfalcon on December 03, 2009, 12:29:12 am
Skeptic,

Here are a few links.

http://hd.engadget.com/2009/09/11/ceton-is-set-to-take-over-the-cablecard-pc-tuner-market/
http://hd.engadget.com/2009/09/10/ceton-cablecard-pc-tuner-details-emerge/

Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: skeptic on December 03, 2009, 01:04:29 am
Just read both links - no mention of anything other than it being a non-OEM card (ie - can buy separate not just with a PC) for Windows Media Center.  With the requirement for CableLabs approval process I seriously doubt there will be any Linux options. 
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: kyfalcon on December 03, 2009, 03:10:56 pm
It mentioned in another thread that the DRM was being relaxed. I guess it just depends on how much it is relaxed. I'll try to find it.
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: skeptic on December 03, 2009, 03:58:25 pm
It mentioned in another thread that the DRM was being relaxed. I guess it just depends on how much it is relaxed. I'll try to find it.
I saw that as well, but nothing specific and I took it to really mean allowing the card to be sold separately.
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: tschak909 on December 03, 2009, 04:00:07 pm
to clarify, just because you can buy them separate for Windows MCE systems does not mean there will ever be drivers for Linux. The pieces required to pass CableLabs certification are not part of the Linux kernel, nor will they ever be.

-Thom
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: kyfalcon on December 03, 2009, 05:01:06 pm
Never is a strong word Thom. Some clever individual could always re-engineer one :)
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: tschak909 on December 03, 2009, 05:22:19 pm
and wind up in jail, thanks to the DMCA.

I will not mention this again, and any further posts suggesting this will be deleted, WE DO NOT CONDONE THE TALK OF CIRCUMVENTION TECHNOLOGY ON THIS FORUM.

Thank you,
-Thom
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: kyfalcon on December 03, 2009, 06:34:20 pm
Thom the comment was tongue in cheek, hence the smile.
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: tschak909 on December 03, 2009, 06:51:20 pm
yeah, I know...

this topic is just sensitive.. it's bullshit...yes...and I fight it every chance i get....

-Thom
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: kyfalcon on December 03, 2009, 07:31:50 pm
I agree, very much bullshit. The cable companies just laugh at the FCC. It's time for that government org to grow a pair.
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: dpierovich on May 02, 2011, 08:28:38 pm
In reading through this thread I can see some real passion on both sides of the question.  All arguments aside, there still might be a way this could be done without anyone ending up in jail ;). 

I know Linux doesn’t currently support the things necessary for an acceptable DRM, but I’m fairly certain that the mods could be made to enable it.  If this were done in a way that would allow individual users to load the necessary changes (if they were willing to accept the restrictions) in order to gain the functionality desired, it should satisfy all parties.  For those who insist that Linux will never do this ... don't add the patch.  For the rest of us who see LMCE as a tool ... we would accept the restrictions if it meant we could bypass the whole Microsoft mess.  It's about having choices and that's what Linux has always been about.

At the moment LMCE doesn't really cut it with today's encrypted TV feeds because there is no support for the hardware required to make it work.
Like most people who are interested in LMCE, I'd rather use Linux for my home systems, than Windows.  At the end of the day, however, I just want a system that works.  It's a sad commentary on the state of LMCE when it takes a weak second place to a Windows solution. :P

Anyone else interested in seeing what can be done to make this work?
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: tschak909 on May 02, 2011, 09:17:43 pm
right now, the only way to make it work, is to use a tuner device like the Hauppauge HD-PVR attached to a cable or satellite box via its Component Output.

This works already out of the box with LinuxMCE.

-Thom
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: dpierovich on May 03, 2011, 01:08:53 pm
Well I dug a little deeper on the topic of Linux drivers for the Ceton Infinitv4 Digital Cable Quad-tuner Card.  To my surprise, :o I found there is already a driver available from Ceton.  According to their tech support,
     "Linux isn't technically supported because encrypted digital cable requires PlayReady DRM
      which no operationing system has except Windows.  However, our engineers are also linux
      developers as well (Great love of linux) :)"

Ask and ye shall receive ... the driver and installation instructions are available at the Ceton site (I can't post the link ... grrrrr ) www dot cetoncorp dot com /infinitv/support/linux.php
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: tschak909 on May 03, 2011, 04:54:10 pm
Read closer...

From the device webpage you can tune ClearQAM channels if you know the frequency, or if you have a CableCARD you can tune CCI=0 channels by channel number.

it's an overpriced HDHomeRun. You really do not understand the mechanics of what is going on here, please actually go do some homework, and listen to those of us who have been doing this for years.

-Thom
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: dpierovich on May 03, 2011, 09:23:05 pm
Hi Thom,
I'd say the Ceton card is a bit more capable than a HDHomeRun.  It can do all the simple clearQAM the home run does, but also supports watching and theoretically recording hundreds of encrypted channels as well.  If you have 500 channels wouldn't you want to enjoy them?

So it's not a perfect solution, it's still the closest to a true working solution I've seen so far.  I've held off on LMCE for years because it just doesn't deliver on the promise of being a true media controller.  Live video feeds ARE media and without something like the Ceton card LMCE is sadly lacking in support of it.   

I might not be the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to this topic, but even I can see a better mouse trap "might" be available.  Instead of being so perpetually negative and attacking members for what they "obviously" don't know, why not try to figure out how to make it work?  If you're so smart, perhaps you should flex your mental muscles and show off that wealth of knowledge by helping me do this. 

I've read the support pages and know what's supported already.  My goal here is to work towards a better, more complete solution.  Seriously, you can do all this with Windows Media Center already ... why not Linux?
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: tschak909 on May 03, 2011, 10:02:02 pm
hmm.

You simply do not understand how Digital Restrictions Management works (DRM).

YOU WILL NOT HAVE ACCESS TO YOUR ENCRYPTED CABLE CHANNELS WITH THIS DEVICE, UNDER LINUX! YOU CAN ONLY WATCH UNENCRYPTED CHANNELS WITH IT!

Many many many many many threads across many boards have EXPOUNDED ad nausaeum on this topic. Content providers DO NOT want desktop Linux machines access to encrypted content, they do not want Linux to have access to encrypted streams.

again, GO DO SOME HOMEWORK, or better yet. Go try for yourself, and watch what happens.

-Thom
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: l3mce on May 03, 2011, 10:26:03 pm
* Lobs bricks at dpierovich's skull

It goes from God to TSCHAK, to HW development, to RIAA/MPAA, back to development, to cable, to you, to congress. This is not a congressional forum.
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: klanmce on May 03, 2011, 11:55:48 pm
Funny all the DRM requirements, and its gets circumvented first by the OS that has the rights.

Also look what people have to deal with, the sony fiasco, a coworker of mines is "shitting bricks" by it all.
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: Meldawn on November 02, 2011, 02:39:45 am
Old post MUST live again!!

cetoncorp[DOT]com/infinitv_support/linux-drivers/
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: kyfalcon on November 03, 2011, 02:36:43 pm
Just found out that Cincinnati Bell Fioptics has CCI set to 0 for all channels, just no VOD which I don't use anyway.. There is also a patch for Myth for the ceton. So the question becomes Is the myth code in LMCE Myth .24? If so I would imagine the patches should work. This would be awesome because I could truly finally make LMCE a whole house solution.
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: tschak909 on November 03, 2011, 02:55:46 pm
You are one lucky #@($#@ bastard. I hate you.

-Thom
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: kyfalcon on November 03, 2011, 05:45:09 pm
Thom I think that might be one of the nicest things you have said to anyone on these boards!  ;D

You are one lucky #@($#@ bastard. I hate you.

-Thom
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: kyfalcon on November 11, 2011, 03:15:13 pm
Got the cable card from Cincinnati Bell Fioptics yesterday and this beauty works wonderfully. Now I just have to update my mythtv to recognize the Ceton. It is my understanding that the CETON will work with Verizon FIOS because they have CCI=0x00 for all there non premium channels.

Kevin
Title: Re: Ceton cableCARD tuner
Post by: Meldawn on February 14, 2012, 01:36:10 am
Suck it, hater.
http://cetoncorp.com/infinitv_support/linux-drivers/