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General => Feature requests & roadmap => Topic started by: unsolicited on April 12, 2009, 08:52:54 pm

Title: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: unsolicited on April 12, 2009, 08:52:54 pm
[This isn't a LinuxMCE specific question, it's a networking question, but answers would apply to LinuxMCE.]

If one considers a gateway (an aspect of LinuxMCE) as something the rest of the network goes through, and as a logical spot for provisioning of network services ... (e.g. firewall between inside and outside networks, and ntp)

"What's a gateway?" (What all is it composed of?)

It's a moving target. e.g. Not too many years ago asterisk wasn't something that immediately came to mind as something that should be on a gateway. As internet life evolves, so will the gateway.

When I have looked around the web, gateway 'aspects' are strewn all about the 'documentation.' Some aspects are in server provisioning, other aspects are in desktop provisioning (e.g. nfs/samba), other aspects are small topics unto themselves. I can't recall coming across a 'networking' 'category' of documentation / one-stop shopping.

I haven't come across any good links as to "What's a gateway?" / "What all a gateway does?"

- a simple checklist would be a good start, e.g. It has this and this and that and that.

Anyone with any good links / references / etc.?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: wierdbeard65 on April 13, 2009, 11:31:57 am
Technically speaking, a gateway operates at the application layer (Layer 7) and converts between high-level protocols. So a device that converts between VoIP and, say ISDN would be a gateway (e.g. an AudioCodes Mediant). Similarly, something that allows a Lunux system to access Windoze shares (CIFS) could be considered to be a gateway (i.e. SAMBA).

The confusion comes from terminology revolving around IP. In this case, we have a parameter called the default gateway, which isn't a gateway at all, but a router operating at the network layer (Layer 3).

Please note, I'm talking from a purist, networking perspective (as you asked!). As always, the original meanings and defininitions have become distorted over time as the technology and applications evolve. The result is a plethora of interpretations and differing uses  ;)

HTH
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: hari on April 13, 2009, 12:23:33 pm
Technically speaking, a gateway operates at the application layer (Layer 7) and converts between high-level protocols.
I do not second that. Are you maybe talking about an "application level gateway"? The term "gateway" alone is absolutely no indication for layer 7 operation. The OSI definition: "A Gateway operates at the Transport Layer and above. Typically translating each source layer protocol into the appropriate destination layer protocol."

Quote
The confusion comes from terminology revolving around IP. In this case, we have a parameter called the default gateway, which isn't a gateway at all, but a router operating at the network layer (Layer 3).
The "default gateway" is used in TCP/IP "speak" as abbrevation for "default gateway router". So I'd say it is a gateway. E.g. look at what the "G" in IGP or BGP stands for :-)

The definition of "gateway" really depends on the context.

br, Hari

Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: unsolicited on April 13, 2009, 07:01:19 pm
Let's get away from the technical and on to the practical.

Although: Default gateway is perfectly correct. It is the device through which the internal network (ethernet) passes to get on to the outside medium (usually providers modem).

Let's use that sense of gateway, and add the network services one wants in a home / small network, in essence, all the goodness one would want in a 'home server' so that all the other machines are mere clients. Which is also to say, I could sit down at any one of them, or bring in a new one, or remove one without any adverse effects to network functionality.

That's not to say you can't have, or don't want, redundancy (e.g. on-site backups), but let's just get the list of 'things' first.

Even better, if anyone has a link that covers this off. e.g. Checklist of services.

In the meantime, dhcp, ntp, named, proxy, net nanny for those who need it, dns, asterisk, torrent (in the sense of port forwarding), firewall, and ???

And, oh yeah, LinuxMCE core! (-:

What all makes up an ubergateway / home server?
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: hari on April 13, 2009, 07:10:22 pm
and this is related to lmce development in which exact manner?

br, Hari
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: unsolicited on April 13, 2009, 07:27:39 pm
and this is related to lmce development in which exact manner? br, Hari

Because this would be the list of functionality lmce must support, co-operate with, and provide  / accommodate.

I would like to compile a checklist of services, with the forum membership's help. Since they are all gateway users, they probably have some good ideas and things I haven't thought of.

Even better, as a start, if someone happens to know of a good link.
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: hari on April 13, 2009, 08:18:42 pm
Because this would be the list of functionality lmce must support, co-operate with, and provide  / accommodate.
??

so lmce _must_ be the ubber mega super gatway appliance embedded low power multi function host? Will you code it? Otherwise this thread shall go to feature requests..

br, hari
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: unsolicited on April 13, 2009, 08:28:05 pm
Because this would be the list of functionality lmce must support, co-operate with, and provide  / accommodate.
??

so lmce _must_ be the ubber mega super gatway appliance embedded low power multi function host? Will you code it? Otherwise this thread shall go to feature requests..

br, hari

This is a discussion in a forum. Perhaps out of it will be a checklist of feature requests, but we're not there yet.

lmce must become as ubiquitous as the browser.

If it must be a gateway, be a gateway. What a gateway is, seems to be a moving target.

Nobody has said low power. IIRC, the wiki / docs / links / whatever seem to indicate the core cannot have too much power. I can certainly see how lmce scales up and down - be it the DVD appliance, or the base CD install, and/or with software added.

All I have asked here is if anyone has any links, or ideas, as to what a 'ubber mega super gatway' would be composed of.
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: posde on April 13, 2009, 09:05:03 pm
Simple:

Do what I need

Done.

scnr :)
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: unsolicited on April 13, 2009, 09:40:11 pm
Simple: Do what I need Done. scnr :)

Simple answer: Define 'need.' Or is lmce to not only be an ubergateway, but be able to read your mind as well.

1 step further: Do you know what you need?


Proper answer: All the appropriate things a gateway / network services / home server / home control device needs to run, in a modern (evolving), industry standard / recognized / best practices manner, to satisfy the customer's needs and requirements, whether they understand all those best practices or not (i.e. to know they need something).

Problem 1: What the heck is 'that', then?
Problem 2: Who is your customer?
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: posde on April 13, 2009, 09:47:29 pm
Simple: Do what I need Done. scnr :)

Simple answer: Define 'need.' Or is lmce to not only be an ubergateway, but be able to read your mind as well.

yes!
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: wierdbeard65 on April 14, 2009, 11:16:38 am
Humm, a little off-topic, but then so is a lot of this thread.

I have noticed that some of the regular posters are once again getting short, to the point of being rude. You guys need to remember that this is a public forum which anybody can join and post on. That anybody will include all levels of experience and many of their posts will be irritating. New users will post questions that have already been asked (yes, there is a search bar!) or in the wrong place. The more regular and experienced users need to at worst simply ignore such posts, or at best redirect the OP to the correct place (whilse swearing quietly under their breath!!!) Simply being rude or, even worse, closing a thread does not help the karma of the forums at all. There were 2 threads recently started by lmce3000 on this very subject:

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=7724.0 (http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=7724.0) and http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=7767.msg50185#msg50185 (http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=7767.msg50185#msg50185)

So, it saddens me to see posts like this one from Hari:
Quote
and this is related to lmce development in which exact manner?
Yes, it perhaps shouldn't be in this forum, but why not gently re-direct the user to the correct forum?

Hari, I have had run-ins with you before on this subject. I have asked questions and had you (I assume it was you as you responded in the thread) simply lock the posting, preventing others from responding. I was accused of not doing my own research, yet in my posts I pointed out that the wiki was giving conflicting messages and that I was seeking clarification.

Please, everyone, can we try to remain friends and avoid sarcastic or abusive comments? It may be that thinks are said in jest, but it is easy to mis-interpret stuff that is written and offence caused that was not intended.

I know everyone here is voluntary and you all give of your time very generously. This is appreciated and as soon as I am up to speed, I will return my experience to the pool.

Moving back to the OP and question...

What I stated in message #2 I stand by. Yes, a gateway is Layer 4+, but the point being that the OSI model (which is NOT the IP model) has a definate split between Layer 3 and Layer 4. They are often referred to as the "lower layers" and "upper layers" respectively. When the archetects of IP (which has become virtually the only protocol out there now) started naming things, they used the term "gateway" incorrectly. I agree that your default gateway MAY have to act as a proper gateway if a WAN is involved, but this is by no means a requirement. In many applications, a router (=default gateway) is between two ethernet segments. It is this that leads to a lot of the confusion around today. I should know, I teach this stuff for a living and it causes endless confusion when in one breath you use the term "gateway" to mean router and in the next to mean a device to convert ISDN to VoIP!!!! In a home network, based on LMCE, you have this very situation. Your core has two NICs. It routes traffic between the public and private networks. Both are ethernet. When you look at your client's network settings, it has the "Default Gateway" set to be the core, which is acting as a router NOT a gateway. To start justifying it by saying things like
Quote
The "default gateway" is used in TCP/IP "speak" as abbrevation for "default gateway router".
is to fall into the Micro$oft trap of redefining standards and terminology and then claiming due to sheer weight of numbers and market penetration that your interpretation is the correct and only one.

I'm sorry, but if we are to be correct, and answer the OP's question, we need to draw this distiction. Routers translate between networks (Layer 3) Gateways between protocols (Layer 4+). As Hari correctly states, the OSI definition (NOT the IP one!) is
Quote
"A Gateway operates at the Transport Layer and above. Typically translating each source layer protocol into the appropriate destination layer protocol."

Now, let us all sit quietly in the lotus position for a few minutes, clear our minds and think calming and happy thoughts.....
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: hari on April 14, 2009, 01:56:31 pm
So, it saddens me to see posts like this one from Hari:
Quote
and this is related to lmce development in which exact manner?
Yes, it perhaps shouldn't be in this forum, but why not gently re-direct the user to the correct forum?
I've gently referred the user to feature requests.

Quote
Hari, I have had run-ins with you before on this subject. I have asked questions and had you (I assume it was you as you responded in the thread) simply lock the posting, preventing others from responding. I was accused of not doing my own research, yet in my posts I pointed out that the wiki was giving conflicting messages and that I was seeking clarification.
was that you who opened 4 topics for FAQ? I think thats rude in a forum.

Quote
When the archetects of IP (which has become virtually the only protocol out there now) started naming things, they used the term "gateway" incorrectly.
incorrectly from which point of view? ISO/OSI is not the only way to name things..

Quote
When you look at your client's network settings, it has the "Default Gateway" set to be the core, which is acting as a router NOT a gateway. To start justifying it by saying things like
Quote
The "default gateway" is used in TCP/IP "speak" as abbrevation for "default gateway router".
is to fall into the Micro$oft trap of redefining standards and terminology and then claiming due to sheer weight of numbers and market penetration that your interpretation is the correct and only one.
and what trapped you to think the OSI definition is the only valid one? I think i stressed the fact that definitions are all about the context.

Quote
I'm sorry, but if we are to be correct, and answer the OP's question, we need to draw this distiction. Routers translate between networks (Layer 3) Gateways between protocols (Layer 4+). As Hari correctly states, the OSI definition (NOT the IP one!) is
Quote
"A Gateway operates at the Transport Layer and above. Typically translating each source layer protocol into the appropriate destination layer protocol."
sorry, read the OP's question again. The only answer is "go to feature requests", as he is surely not interested in networking theory. And I knew where his questioning will end after reading the second post. Hey, he does not even know which features the devs _must_ implement for him, just let it be "ubber".

br, Hari
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: Zaerc on April 14, 2009, 02:33:49 pm
Quote
A gateway is a point of entry or exit at which a gate may be hung.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway

Now are there any other vague broad general questions that have nothing to do with this project in particular but we're apparently obliged to answer anyway?   ;)
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: hari on April 14, 2009, 03:05:46 pm
Problem 2: Who is your customer?
you are aware that LinuxMCE is free? Which customers are you talking about?

best regards,
Hari
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: unsolicited on April 14, 2009, 06:48:23 pm
Problem 2: Who is your customer?
you are aware that LinuxMCE is free? Which customers are you talking about?

best regards,
Hari

I'll rephrase: For whom are you developing for? What is the nature of your customer?

It includes, at least, black box lmce implementers (DVD?), and others, with presumably various levels of expertise (CD?).

Define your consumer. What levels of expertise. What is expected to be in place beforehand? What other criteria of user are you assuming? (No chicken-and-egg please, where you have to entirely grok lmce before you're allowed to try or use lmce.)

Who and what are your target audience of users?
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: unsolicited on April 14, 2009, 06:57:59 pm
... Hey, he does not even know which features the devs _must_ implement for him, just let it be "ubber".

br, Hari


I have not asked for anything other than information, particularly if anyone knows of any good links.

All I have asked is: What all goes in to a gateway / router / central network service machine in a home network. I've suggested such would include, at least, firewall, dhcp, ntp, asterisk, proxy, something for IM, and so on and so forth. I've asked what people might list on their checklist of such items.

I've asked for people's thoughts and opinions. I haven't asked for features. I posted in developers as it seemed reasonable to get the opinions of those who would be able to list "what's already in there", first.

Call it ubber, or whatever you like. I've merely asked, in a perfect world, what might be on such a machine. Let's stop getting hung up on definitions, and move on to intent.
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: posde on April 14, 2009, 06:59:05 pm
I'll rephrase: For whom are you developing for? What is the nature of your customer?

I am developing for MYSELF. And I hope, other people like what I develop. And if someone has some things they like, I think about these things. And if I can, I implement them, if I feel like it. That's the nature of unpaid open source software. I am spending most of my waking hours for LMCE in one way or another. I do it, because I love doing it. Not because I need to feed a market, or have something for a customer.
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: dlewis on April 14, 2009, 09:38:23 pm
We have people that are new and people that are seasoned... Either way, I think we're all on the same page...
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: colinjones on April 15, 2009, 01:10:11 am
Firstly, Hari was correct - this is nothing to do with development, it is a Feature Request/Roadmap topic and has been moved there, as appropriate.

Unsolicited - several points...

On your initial question - I see no reason why everybody would not want the LMCE core to perform many of the services you list, with the level of sophistication that you desire. But the practical fact is, at this point these functions are well down the priority list. There isn't anywhere like the person-power needed to address every point on that list, and so prioritisation is needed, and you will be happy to know that there are movements in progress to make that process more formal, and a "shared vision". True, that doesn't mean your points are any closer to being addressed, however it should at least give you comfort that there will be some structure around the process in future to ensure that they don't get lost indefinitely.

You need to be careful about using terms like "Customer" or discussing things in a way that assumes that the product and its developers are here to address desires, requirements or needs of some notional paying client. I'm sure you don't need to be reminded that nobody pays anything to the developers, it is for their own satisfaction and altruism that they do it, and understandably get irritable when someone starts telling them what their customer wants. This may not have been your intent, but as an independant third party (I am neither you, nor a dev!) I can assure you that is how the tone of your posts came across.

Weirdbeard -

I understand your concern, at the same time, the objective of the ops is "moderation" not "lobotomisation"! We need to take the heat out of discussion, not act like nannies. People are allowed to disagree and object, it is only when it gets into pointless, topic-less, aggressive and offensive slanging matches that it needs to be stopped. There are also the issues of "written tone" and language. One sentence can be written with one intent, but by changing the emphasis, can be read in several different ways - sarcastic, helpful, derisory, chiding, etc. Don't always assume that it was intended how you read it... that is a limitation of written language, not the writer or reader. Also, particular words chosen are often affected by the writer's first-language and even culture. Even though (with a certain generosity of spirit!) the guys in the US and myself in Australia, both speak the same first-language, that doesn't mean we always use the same words and phrases to express the same concept. Throw a whole range of European languages and others into the mix, and you should expect that there will be misunderstandings...

With that all in mind, my subjective reading of the comments - it was clear to me that Hari was directing Unsolicited appropriately. You are being unnecessarily sensitive, and reacting to "tone" that isn't there. Read the previous paragraph again with this in mind.

All - the technical definition of a "Gateway" is not relevant to this thread. It is functionality that Unsolicited is referring to. If you want to discuss the definition, start another thread (and then I will make the comment that none of VoIP, ISDN and CIFS are layer 7 protocols or anything close :) )
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: unsolicited on April 15, 2009, 04:14:10 am
I'll rephrase: For whom are you developing for? What is the nature of your customer?

I am developing for MYSELF. And I hope, other people like what I develop. And if someone has some things they like, I think about these things. And if I can, I implement them, if I feel like it. That's the nature of unpaid open source software. I am spending most of my waking hours for LinuxMCE in one way or another. I do it, because I love doing it. Not because I need to feed a market, or have something for a customer.

DOH! You're right, of course, and well put.

So, first, for you, all I was asking was ... what checklist (?) of 'things' are / were / would be in there or of concern to you?

Second, given that you have posted your code, to share with a like-minded and interested group, re-apply that last paragraph, changing 'you' to 'the group'.

Also, everyone please change the word 'consumer' (or like words) in anything you've read, to 'end user.'

All I asked for was ... anyone have a list, or know of one?
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: unsolicited on April 15, 2009, 04:58:34 am
Firstly, Hari was correct - ..

Thank you for this most excellent post.

... On your initial question - I see no reason why everybody would not want the LinuxMCE core to perform many of the services you list, with the level of sophistication that you desire. But the practical fact is, at this point these functions are well down the priority list. There isn't anywhere like the person-power needed to address every point on that list, and so prioritisation is needed, and you will be happy to know that there are movements in progress to make that process more formal, and a "shared vision". True, that doesn't mean your points are any closer to being addressed, however it should at least give you comfort that there will be some structure around the process in future to ensure that they don't get lost indefinitely.

I take your point, but I say again, I have asked for nothing but if someone knows of a useful link (to a checklist sort of network services list) could they please post. And, with or without such links, if people had such a list, what might be on it.

I have not asked for development, or usage, or anything other than "Shall we make a list?"

You do make a good point - if we can come up with a list, ranking them would seem appropriate.

You need to be careful about using terms like "Customer" or discussing things in a way that assumes that the product and its developers are here to address desires, requirements or needs of some notional paying client ...

I hear you. A reasonably common phrase is "Who's your customer?" As you point out, people can read that poorly if they choose.

Please, wherever customer has been used, replace it with 'end user'.

As in, you probably have, in your mind's eye, a sense of whom you might give or suggest lmce to, or who you might like to. Be that person Linux guru or newbie. And I ask, if I remember correctly, because the intended target audience would impact the nature of the list. So, for example, if the target audience were the Linux guru you would expect / require them to deal with any anti-virus issues they might have on their own. If the target audience is a black box rank newbie, they you might reasonably expect to have in place an anti-virus solution. Note - I did not ask if it was, is, or will be, present in lmce. Merely, if we had such a list, what would be on it.

... One sentence can be written with one intent, but by changing the emphasis, can be read in several different ways - sarcastic, helpful, derisory, chiding, etc. Don't always assume that it was intended how you read it...

In some cases, the pointless non-productive sarcasm  spans many posts and are not one-off accidents of typing. More like "Boy, you are some STUPID for asking THAT question."

With that all in mind, my subjective reading of the comments - it was clear to me that Hari was directing Unsolicited appropriately. You are being unnecessarily sensitive, and reacting to "tone" that isn't there. Read the previous paragraph again with this in mind.

I cannot disagree that the direction was appropriate, but the truth of the message became lost in the abrasiveness of the delivery. There are assumptions that I even knew that threads could be moved (never come across that before), that 'feature requests' includes 'roadmap', and that I knew my target audience, developers (which includes more than coders), would be present. Let alone how.

I cannot agree that the sensitivity isn't warranted. The tone is clearly there.



Can we please get back to the original intent of the question posed:

"What's a gateway?" (What all is it composed of?)

I haven't come across any good links as to "What's a gateway?" / "What all a gateway does?"

- a simple checklist would be a good start, e.g. It has this and this and that and that.

Anyone with any good links / references / etc.?

And add ... links or not, shall we make such a checklist?

[It's just a checklist, a discussion, people, nothing more. Full stop.]
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: colinjones on April 15, 2009, 05:05:16 pm
Quote
Can we please get back to the original intent of the question posed:

I think you will see from my comment that I am keen for us to get back to your topic.

Quote
In some cases, the pointless non-productive sarcasm  spans many posts and are not one-off accidents of typing. More like "Boy, you are some STUPID for asking THAT question."

Agreed, but I cannot moderate within a single thread, on issues across multiple threads. That would make no sense within the thread. But you can rest assured, if there is an ongoing pattern, I do address it "off line".

Quote
I cannot agree that the sensitivity isn't warranted. The tone is clearly there.

On tone, that is your assessment, to which you are entitled. I have made my assessment and I do not agree on this point. My objective is to apply consistent standards, and this is in line with that. I didn't say that sensitivity isn't warranted, just that we need to avoid being "unnecessarily sensitive". Particularly when there are language/culture/medium issues involved... I would ask you (again) to step out of your "comfort zone" and recognise that we are dealing with a global community and all that this entails. I am not going to get involved in vivisection of grammar or phrasing except to ask once again for recognition that the initial redirection to another 'board' should be seen in the light of the potential misunderstandings that come from contrasts in language, culture and medium. I feel that I should not need to be any more explicit on this in a public forum.
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: donpaul on April 16, 2009, 01:56:42 am
Problem 2: Who is your customer?
you are aware that LinuxMCE is free? Which customers are you talking about?

best regards,
Hari

Yes, LinuxMCE is free, we all read that several time throughout the forum. And yes, because of that we all have to take sarcasm and rude comments when we ask for help or make suggestions, I get that to a point. But I assure you that there ARE customers on these forums who have PAID for their LinuxMCE implementation by a company who sells the solution licensed by Pluto.

Just because LinuxMCE can be downloaded free, don't be so quick to assume that there are no customers - that is foolish and damaging to people who make a living selling and/or supporting LinuxMCE.
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: dlewis on April 16, 2009, 01:59:19 am
I think we all understand our points and are all good with our opinions... No harm, no foul...
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: wierdbeard65 on April 17, 2009, 12:42:50 pm
I seem to have been guilty of the very crime I am accusing others of, namely having my intended meanings mis-interpreted! I know it's off-topic, but I don't want to start another thread and miss the links. So may I offer my apologies. I will shup up after this posting.

Language is difficult and not all my comments related directly to this thread. You are quite correct, ColinJones when you say
Quote
the objective of the ops is "moderation" not "lobotomisation"!
Sadly, some are too quick to perform the latter.

I have re-read this thread a few times. I cannot see how an entire posting that reads
Quote
and this is related to lmce development in which exact manner?
can be taken as anything other than a sarcastic comment. It certainly doesn't re-direct the OP to the correct forum. We all get tired and fed up from time to time, however, and I guess this is one of those occasions.

Ok, shutting up now  ;)
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: hari on April 17, 2009, 01:12:36 pm
I have re-read this thread a few times. I cannot see how an entire posting that reads
Quote
and this is related to lmce development in which exact manner?
can be taken as anything other than a sarcastic comment. It certainly doesn't re-direct the OP to the correct forum. We all get tired and fed up from time to time, however, and I guess this is one of those occasions.
Go read that thread again, you seem to have missed some bits. You have to read that posting in context. Also look at my other posts (like the first reply from my side). The reply to my Q lead us to the fact that the original poster has no intention to code this himself. And he even stated in the first post that this is not even LinuxMCE related. So my Q was not sarcastic but helped to clarify that this belongs into feature requests and not the developer forum. Please also note this post from Zaerc: http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=7212.0

Quote
Ok, shutting up now  ;)
a bit late as you don't really contribute to this thread in a positive way. Your first reply was wrong ignoring the context of definitions, and now you are trolling and misinterpreting my posts consciously.

To stay on topic, does anybody request any "gateway" features? Let's discuss possible options.

br, Hari
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: Zaerc on April 17, 2009, 03:10:31 pm
Well, since we can't seem to stop beating a dead horse, I would like to clear this misconception up a bit.

Problem 2: Who is your customer?
you are aware that LinuxMCE is free? Which customers are you talking about?

best regards,
Hari

Yes, LinuxMCE is free, we all read that several time throughout the forum. And yes, because of that we all have to take sarcasm and rude comments when we ask for help or make suggestions, I get that to a point. But I assure you that there ARE customers on these forums who have PAID for their LinuxMCE implementation by a company who sells the solution licensed by Pluto.

Just because LinuxMCE can be downloaded free, don't be so quick to assume that there are no customers - that is foolish and damaging to people who make a living selling and/or supporting LinuxMCE.

Just because some people or companies are selling LMCE (bundled with hardware) does not mean we have customers.  This community of volunteers is not here to make other people money, who then in turn can't be bothered to provide proper support for their own paying customers themselves, and it would be really foolish to expect otherwise. 

So as far as we're concerned there are no customers here as we don't sell a "product".  Now if you have a problem with that I'd like to suggest that you take it up with whoever took your money and sold you LMCE.
Title: Re: Moving target - "What's a gateway?"
Post by: colinjones on April 18, 2009, 12:16:59 am
Agreed Zaerc! But sorry, I'm going to beat that horse again :)

Hari - stop it now please!

I'm going to contradict myself now, and disect grammar a little... while the comment may have been satirical, ironic or sardonic, it was not sarcastic .... sarcasm is when you specifically say the opposite of what you mean, for emphasis, and is the lowest form of humour.

Now this thread has seriously gone off topic (with my assistance!), and isn't adding value in any meaningful way... locking.