LinuxMCE Forums
General => Users => Topic started by: fearingsept on November 24, 2008, 10:48:01 pm
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Getting ready to finally get my lights and some sockets connected to LMCE.
Wondering which one is best ZWave or X10?
I have seen both in the forum and wiki and I just want the overall opinion.
I am looking for ease of install, ease of troubleshooting and ease of use.
Cost and availability is a plus too...
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Cost: X10
Functionality: ZWave
Availability: depends on your location.
ZWave gives you far more options - it is powerline and RF and all devices are RF repeaters, too. So that effectively eliminates a lot of the power line issues such as multiphase power, interference, etc. Also, it is true bi-directional so LMCE sees when you do things manually and keeps track of it. And if an X10 device misses a command (not unusal, apparently) you will never know, whereas ZWave is far less likely to and can detect it anyway then resend the command to correct.
ZWave is also under active development with Hari's new driver.
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Actually zwave is just RF.... x10 is just powerline... and insteon is rf and powerline...
While I was considering my automation options a while back, having tried x10 in the past and not seeing the problems people have had, I still decided to go with zwave. I found x10 was hit or miss based on your wiring.... and Insteon while more reliable, I heard people having device failure after a year of use. I chose zwave because I found absolutely nobody saying anything bad about zwave, having over half the lights converted over to zwave now... I'm happy I did.
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Thanks, I think I am just going to go with ZWave.
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if you ask me, all powerline networks are crap (ethernet, home control, whatever).
I really like Z-Wave but I'm biased :-) I would even prefer it over KNX/EIB for non security applications.
br, Hari
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I just had my electrician install the X10 Phase Coupler in the hopes of gaining control over a few lights that don't want to work with X10, and that didn't fix the problem!! Ug! I'm no farther ahead with the coupler than without when it comes to those ones.
X10 is really cheap but does have its issues. I would love to go with ZWave or Insteon but I can't justify the cost when I have X10 doing 95% of what I want for under $200.
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what is the point of automation if it is only 95% reliable? If you end up doing stuff manually or checking everytime "is it really off", the luxury from HA just vanished :-)
br, Hari
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what is the point of automation if it is only 95% reliable? If you end up doing stuff manually or checking everytime "is it really off", the luxury from HA just vanished :-)
br, Hari
100% agree... its why we gave up on X10 2 years ago. It just was no where near reliable enough... and of course that was before your new Zwave driver was available... with all that new capability that your driver un-leashes ZWave is a total 'no brainer' :-)
Andrew
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100% agree. Z-Wave, Insteon, and KNX are _THE_ choices for this system.
(We do need to get Insteon auto-detected etc in this system too)
-Thom
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IMHO to just play with automation X10 is good. But for real serious projects - Z-Wave and EIB/KNX for Europe are the best choices. Moreover, the cost of Z-Wave and X10 devices more or less is the same. For example, Z-Wave dimmer is about 60 - 70 EUR and X10 ~ 50 EUR. But Z-Wave is more effective and perspective solution.
Also the biggest disadvantage of X10 is different protocols for security and automation. So, it's impossible to control dimmers, switches, motion detectors and window/door sensors, smoke detectors with one PC adaptor.
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While x10 is a pita i think its a cheap way to get people interested in home automation. As long as they know what they are getting to begin with. Just my opinion. True 95% isnt ideal, but if the cost is a lot vs perceived benefit something is better than nothing in my experience. Then hopefully the bug bites them enough that they invest in the better tech later.
But to answer the actual topic, Zwave is better, but more expensive.
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I agree with the idea that X10 is definately inferior to zwave or insteon, but it is a great starting point.
And it is a HUGE price difference (To zwave) and still a large difference to insteon.
The cheapest I could find zwave parts was like:
$40 - $50 per module (plug in, screw in, or receptical, as well as switches and such)
$120 - $150 for a controller/interface
I bought my X10 gear brand new just a few days ago, for:
$5-$8 per module
$10 for RF Reciever
$20 for the controller/interface
That's a HUGE difference in price. I was able to spend $150 and hook up lighting control in my whole house including the controller, not to mention a few pieces of security gear to experiment with. (1 controller, 1 rf reciever, 3 remotes, 9 lights, 3 door alarms)
With ZWave the same setup would have cost me $740
Sure it might be flaky, but I can use it to experiment, and get used to home automation. When I want to invest in a "proper" setup, I can drop a couple grand on it. But for now, the $150 I spent lets me get wife acceptance factor, then I can argue "Ok, now that you like this, see how this is a bit of a pain, and how this doesn't work quite right, well switching to this technology a few pieces at a time would solve that" and I can get buy in on the larger investment :)
So I totally agree, if you have the money to spend, zwave or insteon is superior. BUT don't discount X10 as an option, especially for a "getting your feet wet for minimal expense" option lol.
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Gee, I'm glad i'm single.
*ba-dum-ching*
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In Europe the situation a bit different. Z-Wave USB PC adaptor is $65 and CM11 - €70. Z-Wave dimmer/switch is €65 and X10 dimmer/switch - 42 - 44 EUR. So, I don't see that in Europe X10 is much cheaper then Z-Wave :)
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I agree with the idea that X10 is definately inferior to zwave or insteon, but it is a great starting point.
And it is a HUGE price difference (To zwave) and still a large difference to insteon.
The cheapest I could find zwave parts was like:
$40 - $50 per module (plug in, screw in, or receptical, as well as switches and such)
$120 - $150 for a controller/interface
crap. Look e.g. at the HA22 or the MCV.
br, Hari
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In Europe the situation a bit different. Z-Wave USB PC adaptor is $65 and CM11 - €70. Z-Wave dimmer/switch is €65 and X10 dimmer/switch - 42 - 44 EUR. So, I don't see that in Europe X10 is much cheaper then Z-Wave :)
Sounds to me like you're getting ripped off:
EH-LM12 Dimmer Plug-in module 23.95 euri (http://www.elekhomica.nl/product_info.php?cPath=26_21_70&products_id=246&osCsid=754rjvptelgu9mog7s1skf4lm4) (X10)
vs.
ZDP200 Plug-in Dimmer Module (EU-Shuko) 44.95 euri (http://www.elekhomica.nl/product_info.php?cPath=91&products_id=326&osCsid=754rjvptelgu9mog7s1skf4lm4) (z-wave)
And there should be much cheaper places if you shop around a bit more I reckon.
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In Europe the situation a bit different. Z-Wave USB PC adaptor is $65 and CM11 - €70. Z-Wave dimmer/switch is €65 and X10 dimmer/switch - 42 - 44 EUR. So, I don't see that in Europe X10 is much cheaper then Z-Wave :)
Sounds to me like you're getting ripped off:
EH-LM12 Dimmer Plug-in module 23.95 euri (http://www.elekhomica.nl/product_info.php?cPath=26_21_70&products_id=246&osCsid=754rjvptelgu9mog7s1skf4lm4) (X10)
vs.
ZDP200 Plug-in Dimmer Module (EU-Shuko) 44.95 euri (http://www.elekhomica.nl/product_info.php?cPath=91&products_id=326&osCsid=754rjvptelgu9mog7s1skf4lm4) (z-wave)
And there should be much cheaper places if you shop around a bit more I reckon.
The ZDP200 is 40,46 EUR at zwave4u.de
br, Hari
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Of course I have to jump in on this one...
I have been using X10 for years. I agree 100% that it is obsolete technology, and very low end compared to ZWave... However, they are dirt cheap, plentiful - and if installed correctly (with a properly installed phase coupler) can also offer 100% reliability. I have never had an X10 signal not get to its target device, and I've never had a device receive a stray signal not intended for it.
Latency kind of sucks - anywhere from about a quarter of a second to even a full second (but usually more around half a second). But this is due to the slow bus speed. However, I'm wrapping up some changes to the CM11A driver which greatly improve performance while dimming (a known cause of X10 bus saturation) by adding some of the documented direct dim modes to eliminate sending up to 20+ dim commands while changing lighting levels.
I'll try to make up a video here soon showing my X10 setup, showing the types of things I'm using it for (lighting control, HVAC control, doorbell, motion detection, door/window open/close status indication, etc.)
In the end, I always recommend letting your budget decide what automation system you use. Of course, if you can afford ZWave or Insteon, you would be stupid not to use them - they are great and proven products. But for us poor schmucks that can't afford to lay down a few thousand dollars for a luxury "toy" system, X10 is a great solution that lets us enjoy the same luxuries that other wealthier people enjoy. Linux in general gives us this power of choice to choose what fits us, and LinuxMCE has continued this tradition nicely, so it would also be stupid not to take advange of this added benefit if you can't afford the more expensive toys.
Just my thoughts
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Of course I have to jump in on this one...
I have been using X10 for years. I agree 100% that it is obsolete technology, and very low end compared to ZWave... However, they are dirt cheap, plentiful - and if installed correctly (with a properly installed phase coupler) can also offer 100% reliability. I have never had an X10 signal not get to its target device, and I've never had a device receive a stray signal not intended for it.
Latency kind of sucks - anywhere from about a quarter of a second to even a full second (but usually more around half a second). But this is due to the slow bus speed. However, I'm wrapping up some changes to the CM11A driver which greatly improve performance while dimming (a known cause of X10 bus saturation) by adding some of the documented direct dim modes to eliminate sending up to 20+ dim commands while changing lighting levels.
I'll try to make up a video here soon showing my X10 setup, showing the types of things I'm using it for (lighting control, HVAC control, doorbell, motion detection, door/window open/close status indication, etc.)
In the end, I always recommend letting your budget decide what automation system you use. Of course, if you can afford ZWave or Insteon, you would be stupid not to use them - they are great and proven products. But for us poor schmucks that can't afford to lay down a few thousand dollars for a luxury "toy" system, X10 is a great solution that lets us enjoy the same luxuries that other wealthier people enjoy. Linux in general gives us this power of choice to choose what fits us, and LinuxMCE has continued this tradition nicely, so it would also be stupid not to take advange of this added benefit if you can't afford the more expensive toys.
Just my thoughts
I totally agree with your comments - and getting started with X10 on a low budget is a very valuable entry point indeed.
However the new Zwave driver that Hari has been doing incredible work on is just in a different class completely. With the previous ZWave driver we really had no more functionality than we get with X10 and it was hard to argue the case for ZWave. This is now not the case. Its only when you see what Hari's driver enables that you realise how truly powerful LinuxMCE is and and what can be achieved when harnessing together all of its other capabilities.
Andrew