LinuxMCE Forums

General => Installation issues => Topic started by: caddywhompus on November 11, 2008, 04:51:33 pm

Title: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: caddywhompus on November 11, 2008, 04:51:33 pm
But I do have a few questions;


Sorry for the long winded message.  I do want to thank the group who develops this software.  You guys have done an AMAZING job.  I was stunned at the automation and intelligent scripting I saw during the install and configuration.  For a few years I've dreamed of something like this, but desipte my best efforts I was never able to do it.  I can't wait until I get home and show the wife the new setup!
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: hari on November 11, 2008, 05:19:47 pm
we have still some things to fix and improve :-)

helping hands always appreciated,

best regards,
hari

ps: most of your questions are already answered in the forums/wiki and I'm too lazy to look it up for you :-)
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: caddywhompus on November 11, 2008, 05:29:31 pm
Well to be fair, I did search the forums and read the WIKI before posting, so I must have missed the topics.

You should have seen my list of questions BEFORE I did my own research! :)  The ones I posted above are just the leftovers I couldn't find anywhere.
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: hari on November 11, 2008, 07:36:34 pm
disked MD:
http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=6295.0
http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=5334.0
http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=5599.0

PXE boot should be pretty fast with sane networking gear.

fdisk:
I recommend to use parted or fdisk on the console :-) Watch your disks and backup first :-)

webserver/content filter:
yes, apache is already running. Install a content filter of your choice and lock up your children. Be aware they could have better skills than you nowadays ;-)

mythtv:
depends on your skill

best regards,
Hari
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: caddywhompus on November 11, 2008, 07:54:58 pm
OK thanks for the help, really.

So the PXE boot is just something I have to live with.  OK, it's not terrible, just seems like wasted bandwidth on an already strained 100M/bit switch.  But I can live with it until someone comes up with a better solution.

Fdisk from the konsole is actually what I tried already.  I got a message (forgot exact syntax) indicating that the system couldn't access the drive, even as SU.  I was attempting this through KDE Desktop after the machine was fully booted, so maybe that was the problem?  I was thinking of pulling the drive, booting from my Gpart cd and formatting the disk that way.  Then wouldn't LMCE pick it up on reinstall into the core?

Apache and Webserver, awesome.  That really is going to help.  I did find instructions on how to install Dansgaurdian by searching the forums after my initial post so I'll give it a try later.  The worst part about the kids (10 and 13) is that so many of my stupid neighbors have WAPs broadcasting without any security.  They haven't figured it out yet, but all they have to do is drop the WIFI connection I've supplied them in favor of one of the many others.  For this I have no defense except to try and talk to some of these people and teach them the way of WIFI security.

MythTV, did some more research and reading after first post, not even gonna try it for now.  I will wait patiently for the next version of LMCE and hope the upgrade to Myth 0.21 is included.

I do have one new question. Assuming I get the second HD formatted and reinstalled into the core, how to I tell MythTV to use that space for recording TV?  Right now it appears to be looking at one directory for storage space rather than several?

Thanks again for the help.  If I was more of a Linux genius I would offer to try and help with some of this stuff but for now it's best to learn and do no harm. :)
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: tschak909 on November 11, 2008, 09:05:33 pm
Currently the MythTV-Plugin is hard coded to put its shows on the main core disk. This will be resolved in the future.

-Thom
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: caddywhompus on November 11, 2008, 10:44:49 pm
Currently the MythTV-Plugin is hard coded to put its shows on the main core disk. This will be resolved in the future.
OOHHHH!  That hurts!

I did not get that memo when I started this project.  I assumed (I know, I know) that I would always be able to add drives and/or storage space to MythTV at a later date.  Had I known this, I would have swapped the 80 and 160 GB drives and installed on the 160 so I could at least get some decent recording space.  With Mythdora, I had the LVM setup so I could add drives willy-nilly, this features appears to be missing in Unbuntu.

So this is kinda a show stopper right now, unless someone has a work around I'm not thinking of.  I have about 60GB of recording space, and since I like my video crisp that is less than 20 Hours of TV.  The wife is not going to like that, neither am I.

Is there any way I can trick MythTV to use the 160GB drive for it's recording volume?  What if I delete all recorded shows, erase the current recording folder, and mount my 160GB drive to the same folder?  Would that work?
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: tschak909 on November 12, 2008, 01:32:23 am
use the lmce directory structure, and make a symlink from a folder called tv_shows_1 on that disk, to /home/public/data/videos/tv_shows_1

please be sure to do this outside of the directory structure on the managed disk. DO NOT MESS WITH MOUNTS IN LINUXMCE. You will crash the system. The system has an extensive automounter system that will detect and mount all filesystems it finds.

i.e. say the disk is device 69

make a folder on /mnt/device/69 called tv_shows_1
then ln -s that to /home/public/data/videos

-Thom
 
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: caddywhompus on November 12, 2008, 04:51:57 am
Curious...  ???

I went to attempt your suggestion, and found two existing symlinks already in the original recording folder.  One was for my (newly reformatted) second Hard drive, and the other was to an open windows share on the network.  MythTV is still reporting only 64GB available for recording space, yet the symlinks appear to be present allowing a much greater storage space?  This befuddles me.

Also, MythTV isn't holding my settings between sessions.  I keep changing the default Mpeg decoder and various other preferences and each time the MD restarts it defaults back to original.  Any way around this?
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: tschak909 on November 12, 2008, 05:25:22 am
No, you misunderstood. I am not talking about symlinking into the videos folder on that disk. That would literally cause the files to double up.

I am talking about creating a folder on the top level of where your disk is mounted, and making a symlink there to /home/public/data/videos/tv_shows_1

And yes, again.. this is an appliance. Currently the mythtv plugin resets all the configuration information itself. There is no way to change this currently.

-Thom
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: caddywhompus on November 12, 2008, 06:03:41 am
Ah yes, I got you now.  The stern warnings all over the forum re not messing with FMCE's automounting had me scared.  When i saw the existing symlinks I stopped in my tracks.

For the record I also had to "chown linuxmce" on the new directory so MythTV could write to it.  Minor detail but wanted to keep the thread accurate for others.

As for MythTV settings always resetting back to defaults... well I guess I just found the first flaw with this awesome new thing I've been drooling over.  That's just plain dumb.  The default settings aren't even the best-looking decoding that the Nvidia cards can display.  On my systems, which are all 5x00 or 6x00 Geforce cards libmpegII is a MUCH clearer picture, and the on-screen overlays don't bounce around and look grainy like they do with the defaults.  I guess I will have to come up with a remote macro or something that goes in and sets everything the way I like it every time myth is spawned?  Hopefully this is something that will be addressed in the next release along with 0.21?

Anyway, thanks for the help and keep up the good work!

Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: tschak909 on November 12, 2008, 01:47:33 pm
i'm sorry you feel that way, but please understand, this system is'an appliance. it is intended to repair itself. this will remain a central feature......

-thom
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: caddywhompus on November 12, 2008, 04:21:16 pm
Well I can see your point, but I don't really understand how forcing MythTV to use the same settings for every MD is the right solution.  From my perspective (end user) the real problem here is my TV quality looks terrible and the OSD is likewise jumpy and flaky.  I know that switching to a different decoder and changing the default deinterlace method cleans everything up real nice. 

Granted I'm a newbie, so forgive me presumptions.  As I understand, a network may contain MDs of many different designs.  There could be generic PCs, store-bought dumb terminals, laptop computers...etc.  They all have different capabilities and need to be optimized in unique ways.  I would suggest allowing a certain level of MythTV adjustment from the core web administration page.  I can see all the various MD images and various settings on the web admin page, and adjust certain aspects, that function is already there.  Just add the ability to select a default decoder, display theme, OpenGL support...etc. to that same area.  Then every MD can be optimized for best appearance.

If the facts are that I have to live with the poor quality TV then I'm sorry to say this solution won't work at this time.  I Still believe this product is innovative and extremely impressive, and will watch for the future release to see if some of these issues are addressed.

But again, I understand that what seems obvious to me may not be so because of details I don't yet understand.

Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: tschak909 on November 12, 2008, 04:38:42 pm
We can welcome patches so that decoder settings could be set by MythTV-Plugin based on media settings, but as of yet, nobody has done this.

It is important that we do not clutter the UI with lots of settings with tons of possibilities, these things need to be intelligently determined and then set based on criteria.

I'm sorry it's not worth it for you at this time. I do call on you, or anyone who is interested, to help flesh out this functionality, as we are stretched very thin on implementing functionality at the moment.

-Thom
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: caddywhompus on November 12, 2008, 06:18:14 pm
I certainly understand.  Such is the life of Open Source. :)

I doubt I have the capacity to offer much assistance, but I'll take a look and see what I can come up with.  Understand that I'm a Mechanical Engineer during the day, and only an egghead part time. You guys that are full-time programmers have an obvious advantage. :)
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: indulis on November 13, 2008, 04:21:39 pm
Thom,

This thread shows that a strict appliance approach keeps coming up as a roadblock for many people, not just me.

LMCE for normal users is still too tech despite the appliance approach (I am excluding packaged solutions from the likes of Andrew's company) .  And for power users/hackers it is often frustrating because the appliance approach actively fights attempts to get systems working well.

I think it is a great aim to have LMCE as appliance like as possible, but it just does not seem to be working for quite a few people and their hardware and device setups. 

I found that my display was not detected and set up correctly (too high a freq) and when I changed xorg.conf manually to a working one, that LMCE kept "fixing it" back to a non-working one.  In the end I've had to hack some of the LMCE scripts to stop LMCE changing my xorg.conf all the time.

I've found LMCE doing the same for Mythtv- I've set up cron job for Mythfilldatabase for the Australian "shepherd" XMLTV grabber, as this is the shepherd recommendation, and also because the normal mythfilldatabase job just loops saying it is is "waiting 120 seconds before starting".  I am trying to track down why this is happening right now.  Anyway every time LMCE restarts it reenables the Mythtv fillldatabase job inside Mythtv.  Which I don't want.

Anyway, it is fact that LMCE doesn't get it right all the time.  The proof is in these forums, with so many people fighting LMCE to get their systems to stay working.  You can't even fix it yourself, because LMCE thinks it knows better and backs out your changes.

OK so what could we do to fix it-  perhaps there need to be some flags (files, env variables) which could be set to tell LMCE to back off because the user wants to override the default behaviour.  One for each major area that gets "fixed" by LMCE.

Or have a global setting to stop "unfixing" of configuration files and settings.  So, once LMCE has run the first time, it won't touch the settings again, unless asked to do so again explicitly.

Is this an unreasonable request or approach?
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: tschak909 on November 13, 2008, 04:26:32 pm
no, the right way is to fix the automated bits so that they generate the right values, INSTEAD OF LOBOTOMIZING IT.

I will not back down from this. It needs to be fixed correctly for the near and long term.

-Thom

p.s. do keep in mind that people often post to the forums because they're having a problem, not because things are working well. It tends to skew results.

-Thom
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: caddywhompus on November 13, 2008, 04:34:52 pm
OK so what could we do to fix it-  perhaps there need to be some flags (files, env variables) which could be set to tell LMCE to back off because the user wants to override the default behaviour.  One for each major area that gets "fixed" by LMCE.

Or have a global setting to stop "unfixing" of configuration files and settings.  So, once LMCE has run the first time, it won't touch the settings again, unless asked to do so again explicitly.

Is this an unreasonable request or approach?
It sounded very reasonable to me.  I don't actually see how these suggestions are in conflict of the appliance approach.  The system still auto-configures very well, and most things are setup right.  Adding the ability to tweak important settings for power users doesn't not negate that.  And if the settings can be changed from the Core, and pushed out to the MDs, then the appliance model is likewise preserved.
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: tschak909 on November 13, 2008, 04:37:13 pm
and what about when things get upgraded?

come on guys, think..

you're wasting time hand-tweaking things, when we could work together to make the AVWizard program code, and things like the mythTV plugin code more intelligent to handle these things.

STOP THINKING SHORT TERM.

-Thom
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: tschak909 on November 13, 2008, 04:40:01 pm
*hmm*

But if you REALLY want it for now...

go to the web admin
go to advanced > software > boot settings

select the CORE

then find fixMythTvSettings.sh in the list, uncheck it.

done.
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: indulis on November 13, 2008, 04:53:09 pm
Thanks Thom, that is v useful.

Long term view is definitely the right one, but if I can't even get LMCE to work, how am I ever going to get the experience to be able to help improve things.  If xorg.conf keeps getting clobbered and I can't fix it, how long will LMCE stay on my machine?  If I had not worked out how to get around the xorg.conf clobbering (and many users would not get this far) then I would have gone back to running Mythtv instead.

Problem summary:
1) LMCE does not get it 100% right all the time
2) Therefore user needs to manually fix it
3) LMCE then clobbers the fix

If we can remove step 3 *then* we can get to step 4
4) include the manual changes into main LMCE code


Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: tschak909 on November 13, 2008, 04:53:48 pm
Ok.

-Thom
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: caddywhompus on November 13, 2008, 04:57:27 pm
and what about when things get upgraded?

come on guys, think..

you're wasting time hand-tweaking things, when we could work together to make the AVWizard program code, and things like the mythTV plugin code more intelligent to handle these things.

STOP THINKING SHORT TERM.

-Thom

OK, you make a point.  I think the long term goal should be to have more automation and auto-detection that eliminates the customization.  I applaud the direction you are taking.

BUT, for now I would like to continue using the system and even start contributing to the refinement of future releases.  To do that we need to be able to tweak a few things, even if manually, so the system works well enough to place in a live environment.  It would be hard to get my buddies fired-up about LinuxMCE if they came over and saw the poor quality TV that is currently defaulting to my Living Room.
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: tschak909 on November 13, 2008, 04:58:35 pm
Then you may want to try the fix I suggested above.

-Thom
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: caddywhompus on November 13, 2008, 05:41:02 pm
Thank You, I'll give it a try.

I look forward to contributing in the future as best I can.

-Jim
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: hari on November 13, 2008, 05:53:58 pm
This thread shows that a strict appliance approach keeps coming up as a roadblock for many people, not just me.

LMCE for normal users is still too tech despite the appliance approach (I am excluding packaged solutions from the likes of Andrew's company) .  And for power users/hackers it is often frustrating because the appliance approach actively fights attempts to get systems working well.
It is not the system fighting you, more the other way round. E.g. many people think "I know how to mount a drive on linux", ignore autofs, do manual mounts anywhere and wonder why things don't work. I understand that it is harder to figure out how a complex system works. Sometimes it is harder to modify existing things than to start from scratch. But this system is too complex for a non-appliance approach at the moment. Until we have the final ultimate install and configuration wizard that can handle packages, different distributions and whatnot, we have to focus on getting a complete solution delivered. And the only way the developers see for now (and nobody showed a better approach) is in the form of an appliance.
Enjoy the luxury, the system does so many things automatically. Of course I can manually setup my Cisco 7970 with asterisk and whatnot. But why? I have to cope with computer problems at work. At home I want an appliance that works. This is the ultimate goal of the core development team.

Quote
I found that my display was not detected and set up correctly (too high a freq) and when I changed xorg.conf manually to a working one, that LMCE kept "fixing it" back to a non-working one.  In the end I've had to hack some of the LMCE scripts to stop LMCE changing my xorg.conf all the time.
This is getting better with each Xorg release, some setups can even run without xorg.conf. So, should we just deactivate the automatic X setup and everybody handcrafts his own files in the future? That can't be the solution. We better fix the setup routines.

Quote
Anyway, it is fact that LMCE doesn't get it right all the time.  The proof is in these forums, with so many people fighting LMCE to get their systems to stay working.  You can't even fix it yourself, because LMCE thinks it knows better and backs out your changes.

OK so what could we do to fix it-  perhaps there need to be some flags (files, env variables) which could be set to tell LMCE to back off because the user wants to override the default behaviour.  One for each major area that gets "fixed" by LMCE.

Or have a global setting to stop "unfixing" of configuration files and settings.  So, once LMCE has run the first time, it won't touch the settings again, unless asked to do so again explicitly.

Is this an unreasonable request or approach?
If you are skilled enough to tweak an X11 configuration, where is the problem with putting an exit line in a script? This is also documented.

best regards,
Hari
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: colinjones on November 13, 2008, 08:57:51 pm
Further to Indulis/Hari's comments...

Indulis - I'm not sure what is triggering it to overwrite your changes - I make changes every time I install and occasionally at other times and they never get overwritten. Normally, this only happens when the AV Wizard runs, however in the dim distant past I remember this happening to me once or twice and I have read of others having the same problem.

I am really curious as to what triggers this behaviour because hacking the scripts obviously isn't the right approach. If we understood what caused it, we could almost certainly find what it is that I am doing/not doing that means it doesn't effect me. I think generally, when that process is triggered it copies over the xorg.conf.pluto.avwizard file and others in the past have used the workaround of editing that file to be the same as their xorg.conf file - however I note I do not do that, I just edit the xorg.conf file and it stays edited!

Col.
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: hari on November 13, 2008, 09:32:01 pm
colin, read the last posts again. This is not about xorg.conf being overwritten with the "exit" fix in place.
The right approach is to fix the setup tool.

br Hari
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: colinjones on November 13, 2008, 10:02:21 pm
hari, no, I understand that the exit fix stops this behaviour - what I'm curious about is why mine xorg.conf doesn't get overwritten even without the exit fix? What triggers the overwriting?
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: indulis on December 09, 2008, 03:05:19 am
I don't know what the trigger is. I suspect that it is to do with mod time on the file, as I could not just change the output file in the Xconfigure script to be a file other than /etc/X11/xorg.conf, when I tried that it just kept going in to AVwizard reconfiguration at each reboot.

But on my system even the AVwizard would stuff up the X setup halfway through customisation, such that I could not see what was going on.  The screen would go a purple-black , with the top half visible, fading down to black at the bottom half of the screen.  Think it was because the refresh rate was too high, if I look at the xorg.conf file it was using the freq range for vert refresh (??? going from memory here) was far too high.  No problem on most LCD displays, as they just "downscale" the signal to 60Hz anyway- my work one gives a warning that "refresh rate is out of range" but displays the picture anyway!  On a CRT it is more serious, as they don't really cope as well.

Should I submit a patch so that the default xorg.conf refresh rate is sane?  How?

Is there any reason why I can't start changing the scripts so that they respect a global variable (say LMCE_APPLIANCE_MODE), which if set causes the scripts to not overwrite changes?  Or should we have a more granular approach where each script would be aware of its own setting (e.g. LMCE_MYTHTV_CORE_STOP_RECONFIGURE=1), or both, scripts obey both a global and a per-script setting.

I am reluctant to even start to change anything due to the warnings by developers, so would want some buy-in on an approach to making LMCE "hacker friendly", without compromising the aim to keep it an "appliance" for most users.

Us tinkerers would like to be able to tinker, tune, and help make LMCE better.  Telling LMCE "hands off!" would help in the case of misbehaving hardware and/or misbehaving LMCE and would also help make the process of debugging problems much simpler.
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: tschak909 on December 09, 2008, 04:10:18 am
Yes, it would help with debugging, unfortunately, it would also make people content to just keep things as they are....without figuring out WHY the automatic scripts didn't work...this is the big reason I will not do a patch like this myself.

Let's instead analyse the automatic scripts and try to make them more intelligent. I will not speak any more on this.

-Thom
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: wsuetholz on December 10, 2008, 03:58:27 pm
use the lmce directory structure, and make a symlink from a folder called tv_shows_1 on that disk, to /home/public/data/videos/tv_shows_1

please be sure to do this outside of the directory structure on the managed disk. DO NOT MESS WITH MOUNTS IN LINUXMCE. You will crash the system. The system has an extensive automounter system that will detect and mount all filesystems it finds.

i.e. say the disk is device 69

make a folder on /mnt/device/69 called tv_shows_1
then ln -s that to /home/public/data/videos

-Thom
 

y'know I had tried this, and I found that the link was being deleted and remade as a directory entry.  So, I just assumed that one of the automation scripts really wanted the tv_shows_1 to be a directory, and started doing things differently.
Title: Re: Just completed my first install, and WOW am I impressed...
Post by: seth on December 12, 2008, 01:20:02 pm
I can confirm this. i rebooted the core last night to add a new piece of hardware. When the system came back up, the symlink I created was gone, and it was replaced with a standard directory.

As creating a mount point in fstab is a BAD thing, I would make note that if you reboot your core, you will either have to add a script to delete and re-link the directory, or remember to change it back.

Please note that using a mount point is not a good road to travel.

Regards,

Seth

- edit -  By the way, that was the longest period of time my core was up, 17 days, guess I finally got the right hardware setup. A note here, I do not run the media station, it only starts the core services on boot.