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General => Users => Topic started by: freymann on March 17, 2008, 08:08:02 pm

Title: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: freymann on March 17, 2008, 08:08:02 pm
Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu

My experience with LinuxMCE was unsuccessful, frustrating, difficult, and
time consuming. I read the forums and wiki pages and searched the google for
information on LinuxMCE for at least a full 3 weeks before I decided to
dive in.

After reading online, I decided that my server was up to snuff, based
on the information provided here. My server will be a hybrid.

My server, which was bought the first week of Dec 07, has been running
Ubuntu 7.10 perfectly. It has a very good nVidia 8400 video card with 512MB
of RAM. 2 GB memory, 250GB Sata HD and Sata DVD-RW. It works fine. During
my 8 days of hell trying to run LinuxMCE the most it ever ran without
requiring a hard or soft reset was 1 day, and that was only because I
had stopped using the mouse and keyboard on the server to fiddle, I was
doing things remotely. As soon as I would go to the machine and select
KDE desktop, when I was done the software would blow up fairly quickly
afterwards. My server locked up all the time. Somebody said, maybe your
hardware should be changed out. I don't think so. It ran Ubuntu 7.10
just fine, and it runs MythBuntu 7.10 just fine now too.

After reading this:

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/KnownIssues_0710_Beta4

I unchecked the nVidia option, installed the patch for MythTV and did the
fix for the sort thing.

I had some newbie issues, and I thought I would document my experience
for the benefit of others:

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4530.msg26599#msg26599

I also believe that having the USB dongle installed on bootup was a
problem. Installation worked fine with it removed. This is not
documented but is "hinted" about in the forums.

I had issues setting up with one network card, but that shouldn't have been
a problem because it says you can do it, and it says that right here:

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php?title=DHCP_Plug_and_Play#Single_NIC_.26_Existing_DHCPd

Turns out the information provided is incorrect, and fortunately, this
thread in the forums produced real working results. My thanks to 1audio

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4574.msg26843#msg26843

My next journal entry:

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4541.msg26661#msg26661

I thought I had provided good detail, but to this day nobody has offered
up any suggestions to my issues there.

I keep seeing messages about the IVTV software, so I post another
message with links and specific questions:

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4545.msg26678#msg26678

No replies. This is confusing too:

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Hauppauge_WinTV-PVR-150_MCE

And my 3rd journal type entry:

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4548.msg26688#msg26688

But no responses from techs or developers.

Next on my list was to try and get LinuxMCE to change the channels on my
external Bell Dish 4700 Receiver. Good luck trying to find any information
on how this is done.
Documentation for this is extremely poor and conflicting.
I specifically bought two PVR-150-MCE with the IR Transceiver bean bag and
dongles. Why? Because I read this page:

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Windows_MCE_Receiver

Now, tell me that the page above doesn't say this:

"IR Transmitter is supported with driver module lirc_mceusb2 version >= 0.24 (lirc-0.8.2)"

but in the next line it says

"However, the transmitter is not currently supported in LinuxMCE"

but in the next line it says

"Workaround for channel changing in MythTV Only"

If that makes sense to you then you are a brilliant mind. But since I took that
to mean it'll work with a little effort, I purchased what I did.

In the forums, the question about using the MCE Transceivers comes up
quite a bit and if you search, you'll see there are very few straight answers
on if they work. Most replies suggest using USB-UIRT's but nobody seems to
have the balls to come right out and say, "NO!"

Upon reflection, tschak909 says it here though:

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4440.msg26153#msg26153

but by then it's too late for me.

So I post a very specific question about my dish and remote:

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4569.msg26793#msg26793

and tschak909 convinces me to just give up and purchase a couple USB-UIRTs
and my life will be rosey. A few days later, I decide to order them online
as things are sorta working.

I also bought some X10 Home Automation equipment, based on what I was
reading here:


http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/CM11

and here:

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4456.0

I have a:

CM11A
KR10A
RR501
LM465 x 2


which still hasn't arrived, but I'd be happy to sell this to whoever wants the
box.
It cost me $45 U.S. plus shipping. You can have them all for $45 CDN and I'll
pay for shipping to North America destinations.

So next up, I know I need a computer for the master bedroom and living room, to act
as Media Directors.

Once again I scout the web to see what might work.

I look at the hardware specs for mainboards:

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Category:Mainboards

and for video:

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Category:Video

and graphic cards:

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Category:Graphic_Cards

I decide on a barebones box from a dealer not far away, that uses and AMD 4200+
CPU, has 1 GB of RAM, has onboard nVideo video, etc. I need to use SVideo out for
this box, so I buy a nVidia 7200 GS PCIe card to pop in there.

For the bedroom, I wanted something a little smaller and I found a neat HTPC on
eBay that contains the via board. Based on this information:

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/VIA_EPIA_Mini-ITX
and
http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Via_PC2500e-gOS

I figured this would be fine. Fiire uses similar equipment, and the forums had
some threads on drivers, like:

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=2519.msg11991#msg11991

I didn't think this would be a big issue, but on the day it arrived, I fired it
up and Network booting the thing was a pain. It froze the core. Rebooted both. It
wouldn't load X. I posted a message:

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4624.msg27051#msg27051

totallymaxed and darrenmason had some good advice, but after hours of fiddling
with commands I was about done. I also utilized the live chat feature too.

And then I decided to install the PVR-150-MCE card into the MD for the living room
and when it reboots? it freezes at the same point each and every time. Take the
card out? It boots. When it freezes? it shut down my entire network.

So now I have two media directors with issues, a core that freezes or requires
reboots constantly, and a week of my life has passed me by, a few things are
still being delivered, and NOTHING WORKS PROPERLY!

In all fairness, I did discover that the PVR-150 card I got off eBay is one that
contains a chip with bugs. It has the cx23415 chipset that is documented somewhere
(I can't find it) as causing problems. It's on the shelf collecting dust but I
did use the MCE remote and ir transceiver. Actually, there were two bean bag
transceivers in the box. Bonus! I ordered a brand new PVR-150-MCE kit from Tiger
Direct and that'll be here soon.

But after all this, I gave up on LinuxMCE. It just wasn't worth the hassles!
I feel sorry for any newcomer who thinks they are going to have an amazing system
as shown in the Demo Video (which I totally detest, as it's very misleading!).

If that's YOU reading this post, good luck! You have no idea what you're getting
yourself into!


I have since switched over to MythBuntu 7.10 with latest updates.

http://www.mythbuntu.org/

and being an avid fan of Ubuntu, I'm thrilled to be back into their forums:

http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=301

where there is plenty of useful information and plenty of friendly people all
happy to give out advice and tips. I contribute as well.

And funny, all three of my computers work just peachy keen with MythBuntu. No more
reboots and lockups. It just works.

I definitely prefer the way MythTV handles music, photos and videos. The interface
with LinuxMCE for those items is very poor. I never figured out how to tell LinuxMCE
to play my entire music collection in random order. MythTV? A few keystrokes. I
never liked seeing my photos in a small square on LinuxMCE. MythTV? Full screen (on
a 4:3 ration, and definitely larger on 16:9). MythTV is also easier to do a slideshow
or move around folders.

Adding thmbnails and IMDB info to avi files in MythTV is fairly painless. I think I
got LinuxMCE to look up information on one avi file for me in all the time I
fiddled with it.

Oh, and did I mention that my MCE remotes and transceivers work just fine in MythTV?

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4527005#post4527005

Once again the ubuntu forums proved extremely useful, and things "just work" and it
doesn't take days to do what should be simple tasks.

I have two brand new USB-UIRTs coming (yah, they aren't even here yet) that are
for sale.

One is $50 and the other is $55 cause it has the 56 hertz thing. You can buy them from
me at that price (CDN) and I'll pay for shipping to North American destinations just
to get rid of them.

LinuxMCE is far from ready for the masses. Equipment support is very narrow, and your
online documentation is terrible. There's either no information on how to do certain
tasks or the information there is out of date, incomplete or conflicting. I found it
extremely difficult to get a straight answer or to find the exact steps to solve my
issues. I think you need to regroup, reorganize and redocument.

The "concept" is great.... however I don't think the general public should be
acting as your Alpha or Beta testers when support and feedback is so hard to come
by.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: hari on March 17, 2008, 08:50:38 pm
Thank you for your input. Some suggestions:

* if you have multiple problems split the posts, otherwise not everybody will read your full posts. It's easy to overlook a topic where one could help.
* bashing does not help.
* you are comparing apples and oranges. If MythBuntu fits your needs, perfect. But LMCE is more than a media center. YMMV.
* this is free software. Nobody forces you to "alpha test" it.

best regards,
Hari
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: teedge77 on March 17, 2008, 09:21:11 pm
hari has some good points. most people just skim posts and look for parts that interest them or that they have knowledge of. i understand you wanted to document/blog your time with linuxmce, but you really should have had smaller posts for things you wanted help with. it was a lot to digest and im sure most people didnt make it far enough into your post to see what you wanted help with.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: golgoj4 on March 17, 2008, 10:23:23 pm
bye.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: skeptic on March 17, 2008, 11:10:32 pm
I am also new to LinuxMCE and switched to it from a perfectly fine MythTV setup.  Much aggravation later I was about to switch back and posted a message to that effect describing some of my troubles, which finally got some helpful responses.  With those I was able to get a semi-working setup which is overall inferior to a dedicated MythTV setup, but with potential. 

I don't understand some of the compatibility issues either.  Remote controls, external devices, and even U1/U2/U3 I understand, but why you can install MythBuntu on an older box with no problems, but LinuxMCE crashes, doesn't support certain hardware, or doesn't boot just doesn't make sense to me.  Regardless of what the wiki says, don't try to use a LMCE box as as desktop, as I've found you are just asking for trouble.

However, I have been out of town for a couple weeks just after I got LMCE 710b3 barely working and during this time I've decided to limp along until the official 710 is released.  At that time I will build a dedicated core as well as MDs.  I will also change my network config to match what LMCE wants.  I'm not doing this because I think LMCE is better as a media center, or looks nicer (I prefer the MythTV style menu system), but because of the home automation potential.  Enough other people have it running that I'm confident with the right hardware it will work.  I'm also not going to try any more beta releases because I don't have a dedicated core and I don't want to spend a few days messing with it while my desktop is non-functioning and my internet services such as e-mail and web are not functioning. 

I will agree that if you want help, limit it to one problem per post, be concise, and be specific.  On the other hand, I really don't like the posts that are unhelpful or tell people to go away if they don't like the way things are.  The whole point of LMCE is to be easy for the end user.  That's why everything is so automated and fine tuned control is difficult if not impossible to get to, at least as I understand it.  Telling people to go away or just live with it when they post a legit complaint doesn't do any more good than someone posting a bunch of complaints.  LMCE IS frustrating, it can be a PITA, there is a steep learning curve, and not everything works they way people think it does.  I speak from experience when I say after hours of fighting to get something to work, posting questions here can come off with a definite "LMCE SUCKS!!!" tone.  Probably the most frustrating thing of all is how misleading the video and wiki are.  To anyone new to LMCE I would strongly argue against trying to use existing hardware, it's just too much of a crap shoot.  I realize upfront monetary expense in order to try something new is a bit of a gamble, but the hours of frustration it would save more than makes up for it.  As it is, once I setup a dedicated LMCE core I will need to re-install my desktop from scratch just to get it fully functioning again.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: diesel12 on March 18, 2008, 12:00:50 am
quitter.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: alexperi on March 18, 2008, 12:18:35 am
I'll add to the pessimism....
I find that the boards are just too generic (Users/ Installation issues / Archives)
It is not the case that you find someone there and then - online that knows the problem that you are facing and its solution.
In a generic pool such as "Users", your post is lost too quickly and you never get your question answered.
I think the guys who are developing are doing hard work but they are not setting up the forums in a smart way to support the product.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: orionsune on March 18, 2008, 12:54:17 am
Quote
I'll add to the pessimism....
I find that the boards are just too generic (Users/ Installation issues / Archives)
It is not the case that you find someone there and then - online that knows the problem that you are facing and its solution.
In a generic pool such as "Users", your post is lost too quickly and you never get your question answered.
I think the guys who are developing are doing hard work but they are not setting up the forums in a smart way to support the product.

I might disagree with the conributing developers and techies on stuff, but I have to speak up for them here.

I've been on many boards, some with simple categories like this one, and some with multitudes of categories.  If there were more categories, people will still be posting in the wrong sections... it's just an inherit trait of human beings to not read/think before they post/act.

Not setting the forums up in a smart way to support the product?  I've used the forums to solve random issues of mine, very successfully.  I've found all the support i've needed so far, there are some really great people here.  Which brings me to why I am shocked at your "smart way to support the product" comment.  This is a community of mostly hobbyist that all contribute to solve each others issues and bugs.  If you can't contribute, then don't complain.  I don't recommend this product for any Novice users or under anyways.  At least not in it's current state. Remember, free product = community support, paid product = better support.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: danielk on March 18, 2008, 01:06:28 am
I would just like to say that the LinuxMCE developers have no problem with Ubuntu or Mythbuntu for that matter. Paul made a very good choice when he decided on kubuntu as the base.

We are working on hardware and driver problems for the 710 release. The two NIC requirement for simple setup will stay for the foreseeable future since much of what LinuxMCE does which Mythbuntu can not depends on having an internal and external network; yes it is possible to use one NIC, but this is by no means a simple thing to accomplish.

I hope you will give LinuxMCE another try in the future. I think we're doing well for a young distro and 710 and 804 are looking better by the day. But of course -- I am a little biased.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: 1audio on March 18, 2008, 07:22:18 am
I have been using 704 for many months and only a few problems, mostly created by me. I have not tried 710 because I need something that works. 710 is still beta and problems are still surfacing every day. Its a very large and complex beast and won't easily rev to new versions. (Look how long it takes the 1000's of programmers to just fix the released version of Vista, and then realize that there are less than 20 real programmers actually working on Linuxmce and what they have already accomplished.)

The point being that for someone to try LMCE but use the beta instead of the known working version and then complain that its a beta and not usable seems a little naive.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: chrisbirkinshaw on March 18, 2008, 11:06:17 am
The old pluto boards were subdivided into small sections for each system component, but nobody read your post if it was in an area which was not busy. Therefore people always just posted in the sub-board with the most posts...!


Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: alexperi on March 18, 2008, 04:23:12 pm
I never suggested over-complicating the forums but having it broken down to components like modo/graphics/cpu/audio/remote-controls etc. is fairly straight forward and i think that on the whole would be helpfull.

"orionsune" i think we should agree to disagree if you are suggesting that the majority of users will not follow such simple categorisation. Some will but most will not!
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: mikester on March 18, 2008, 04:42:44 pm
I have been using 704 for many months and only a few problems, mostly created by me. I have not tried 710 because I need something that works. 710 is still beta and problems are still surfacing every day. Its a very large and complex beast and won't easily rev to new versions. (Look how long it takes the 1000's of programmers to just fix the released version of Vista, and then realize that there are less than 20 real programmers actually working on Linuxmce and what they have already accomplished.)

The point being that for someone to try LMCE but use the beta instead of the known working version and then complain that its a beta and not usable seems a little naive.

This is a good point, and I would be interested in hearing other people's experiences of the stability of 0704 final vs. the 0710 betas.  I am certainly willing to install the older version and wait for the new version to get out of beta, if the stability is significantly better.

One problem a lot of us noobs probably are facing is that the beta versions are prominently linked to from the main page, which leads most newcomers into jumping right in with beta softare.  In fact, I had to search around for a few minutes to even find the torrents for the 0704 download.

Maybe a helpful improvement to the site would be to change to download page to list the latest stable build (0704) and the newest build separately.  This is how other open source projects do things (I'm thinking Eclipse, which I'm very familiar with), so you always know if you are downloading the stable version or the "bleeding edge" version.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: chrisbirkinshaw on March 18, 2008, 05:23:17 pm
Perhaps separate forums for stable and unstable would be useful.

Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: Zaerc on March 18, 2008, 05:57:15 pm
I feel that the only change on this forum we really need is an additional yawning smilie for threads like these...
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: JimmyGosling on March 18, 2008, 07:15:05 pm
I feel that the only change on this forum we really need is an additional yawning smilie for threads like these...
lol  ;D

I actually really enjoyed this post.  Yes, there was some bashing, but he also made some very good points about the frustrations that I have encountered as well.

Hari is correct in saying that if MythBuntu is going to fit the bill... then use MythBuntu.  I want LMCE to work because I want all the things that MythBuntu doesn't have.

I started in the late pluto days using some hardware laying around and found very limited success.  When I made the switch to LMCE I did my homework and invested wisely, although cautiously, and that seems to have been to my benefit.

I had some family over last night and we all sat down for a movie the first time together.  Everyone was very impressed with the setup and especially the lighting controls (thanks ddamron).  My girlfriend of course had to ruin it by telling them all about my swearing tirades and frustrations.  But when it came down to it, I was still glad that I had spent my time here.  When things break she still gives me crap about it and I need to remind here that this is not a finished product yet. 
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: skeptic on March 18, 2008, 09:02:28 pm
I had some family over last night and we all sat down for a movie the first time together.  Everyone was very impressed with the setup and especially the lighting controls (thanks ddamron).  My girlfriend of course had to ruin it by telling them all about my swearing tirades and frustrations.  But when it came down to it, I was still glad that I had spent my time here.  When things break she still gives me crap about it and I need to remind here that this is not a finished product yet. 
This is where I hope to get to.  Right now I'm somewhere between swearing/frustrations and a barely functioning system  I'm afraid to touch.

The original poster clearly did a fair amount of research, wiki and forum searching, attempted to buy new hardware that should have worked, and overall gave it a pretty good attempt.  Negative comments basically telling the guy to leave if he doesn't like it really do a disservice to LMCE.  He has valid points, and other potential new users are going to read threads like this and think LMCE is not worth the hassle to figure out on your own and the forum is full of elitist jerks. 

As for splitting up the forum into sub groups, I think it would be useful if the split were by version or as another poster mentioned, stable vs. unstable releases.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: totallymaxed on March 18, 2008, 09:15:20 pm
I had some family over last night and we all sat down for a movie the first time together.  Everyone was very impressed with the setup and especially the lighting controls (thanks ddamron).  My girlfriend of course had to ruin it by telling them all about my swearing tirades and frustrations.  But when it came down to it, I was still glad that I had spent my time here.  When things break she still gives me crap about it and I need to remind here that this is not a finished product yet. 
This is where I hope to get to.  Right now I'm somewhere between swearing/frustrations and a barely functioning system  I'm afraid to touch.

The original poster clearly did a fair amount of research, wiki and forum searching, attempted to buy new hardware that should have worked, and overall gave it a pretty good attempt.  Negative comments basically telling the guy to leave if he doesn't like it really do a disservice to LMCE.  He has valid points, and other potential new users are going to read threads like this and think LMCE is not worth the hassle to figure out on your own and the forum is full of elitist jerks. 

As for splitting up the forum into sub groups, I think it would be useful if the split were by version or as another poster mentioned, stable vs. unstable releases.

The original poster did do an incredible amount of research and work... can't get away from that at all. But... we build on average 7-10 systems per week and we don't experience those problems. I expect to be able to get a basic Core running in about an hour (from scratch). Adding 5-8 MD's, Lighting and other options takes time... but it works. I am not saying everything is 100% perfect... what software ever is ;-)... but for the most part the problems we see are really relatively small.

The secret is to follow a well trodden path on hardware... dont' try to 'run before you can walk' and ask simple specific question if you hit a problem. There are plenty of us here who will help ;-)
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: skeptic on March 18, 2008, 11:20:05 pm

The original poster did do an incredible amount of research and work... can't get away from that at all. But... we build on average 7-10 systems per week and we don't experience those problems. I expect to be able to get a basic Core running in about an hour (from scratch). Adding 5-8 MD's, Lighting and other options takes time... but it works. I am not saying everything is 100% perfect... what software ever is ;-)... but for the most part the problems we see are really relatively small.

The secret is to follow a well trodden path on hardware... dont' try to 'run before you can walk' and ask simple specific question if you hit a problem. There are plenty of us here who will help ;-)

Agreed, which is where I hope to pick this up again, using well tested hardware and changing my network config to match.  The problem is when the wiki and some forum posts imply that something should work when it really doesn't.  A "LinuxMCE is a highly customized and automated system that will only work with very specific hardware, do not attempt to use anything not specifically listed as fully functional unless you are an advanced user or wish to beta test" type warning at the top of the hardware requirements wiki would go a long way to minimizing new user frustration.  It might also be worth while to have a similar "networking doesn't work right unless you do it the LMCE way" type message, although this is somewhat implied. 
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: JimmyGosling on March 19, 2008, 12:51:38 am
I think another issue is that some things which current users might think of as just "common sense" don't come through to others.  Documentation is always the first thing left by the wayside, and it become increasing hard to document, alongside even, when you're not entirely sure that the fruits of your labor are going to pay off in the end.

now this is my opinion and no one else's but I think that c++ is also an inherently complex language.  multiply that by the incredibly large feature and hardware set we have here and then add in the variable of a decentralized development team and you'll see what a feat it is to get something like this to market.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: JahT on March 19, 2008, 07:44:46 am
Nothing good comes without some work.

Read my bitch session here:

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4247.msg24374#msg24374
 (http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=4247.msg24374#msg24374)
But then I get these little break-throughs, with the latest being support for my HA22 z-wave dongle.  I followed the steps in the wiki, and the wizard went to work.  Whammo, I have control of all of my lights!!! something I have wanted working for 7 months.  Thank you anyone/everyone for getting that working!!!! And then seeing tschak909's videos for integrated MAME roms, I am hooked on LMCE.  Of course I am 8 months in w/ a box that only plays pretty flicker slideshows and turns my lights on and off, but it is still awesome.  I am now completing month's of research on the correct parts to make a dedicated core and two MD's so I can take advantage of all features (my current ATI all-in-wonder x800xt is not working in mythtv).

My only suggestion for the forum or wiki is to have the users document their working systems with a picture gallery.  Then someone could get started by copying what someone else has proven to work and explained how they got there.  I know the wiki lists proven components, but I'd like to see a listing of a user's complete system parts, case and all.  Again THANKS for my z-wave lights, I'm hooked!!
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: teedge77 on March 19, 2008, 02:18:44 pm
a picture gallery has already been started.

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User_Setups (http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/User_Setups) 

hopefully more people will be able to add to it soon.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: bmac2 on March 20, 2008, 07:11:28 pm
My only question to all of the problems and you say a lack of answers and support is did you ever come to the IRC channel and ask for help?  We average at least 40 devs/users/helpers in there at all times.  Ask some of the users who come in there, people get help in there!  If it is a major issue that some of us grunt level question answerers can't do, we get hari, ddamron, tschak, danielk, etc ( an experienced dev type ) involved IN the channel discussion.  And we have a good history of fixing issues, or if it IS a code issue, start fixing it.

NOW, I will be the first to admit the WIKI is frustrating, poorly organized, and has conflicting info.  The amount of stuff that was inherited with this project is HUGE.  I personally agree with a comment that TSCAK made the other night in the irc channel.  "The wiki makes me want to go in with a scythe and start cutting and destroying!". 

NOW, your issue of hardware that SHOULD work not working.  One of the dev types bought the Fiire station hardware, not just the remote, but the desktop models that according to PLUTO and the wiki and the documentation info should be plug and play.  HE still has issues with them.  The only thing I can say is that the documentation we have came with huge bugs and misinformation.  Again, the irc channel is where the most competent people to answer specific hardware issues are located. 

I have seen a lot of "experts" with opinions on the forums that have never written a line of code for the project, OR done any work of any kind.  They hang out and write stuff in here and some of them make me wonder if they have even installed linuxmce at all EVER!!  If you rely on just these supposed experts in the forums, and the wiki you are not getting all the answers. The devs try to answer stuff on here, but they are facing an enormous task with the code base we inherited. And finding stuff in the wiki amounts to hunting for a land mine on the beach sometimes.

Now if you just want movies and music, mythbuntu,  mythtv, and several others are the way to go.  MythTV is an awsome project, very mature and really rocks at what it is intended to do.  Audio and Video.  As we push further into cleaning code, then maybe linuxmce becomes another valid option for JUST that, but I doubt it because the entire premise of the software is to do phone, HOME AUTOMATION along with the mythv stuff, not JUST video/audo. But please don't bash the devs and the project for NOT being a mature project, nor for still having issues.  I am really sorry you obviously have a lot of anger towards the software and will probably never be a fan of it.  I agree you have valid points on the documentation, and there is right now a newbie installation guide being written to address that very thing.

Again, I don't disagree with most of your issues.  The only one I don't agree with is that you didn't use the irc chat room to get some of these solved.  If you don't believe me come to the channel and hang out and just watch issues get addressed.  Thanks, and off my soap box now!!!

Barry McCormick
bmac2  <---  irc
darklordbmac   <--- aim
snarfingcode666  <--- yahoo
16492945  <---- ICQ
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: skeptic on March 20, 2008, 09:43:47 pm
I'm glad to finally hear some comments from others on how misleading the wiki is.  The idea of removing it completely, and just adding back those parts that are KNOWN to be correct sounds great to me. 

On the other hand, can you honestly expect a newbie who started with the wiki, moved on to the forums, and spent real money on hardware that was supposed to work to then move on to IRC expecting a solution?  I'm not sure if that was ever even suggested to the OP, nor do I remember anyone pointing me there when I was having problems and was about to give up completely.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: bmac2 on March 20, 2008, 10:00:10 pm
The idea of removing it completely, and just adding back those parts that are KNOWN to be correct sounds great to me. 

The major problem is that people who FIND these wrong sections need to add to the wiki pointing out what is wrong.  That wike is sooooo damn big that it would take months of several people's time to check every post in it for correctness.  Some of the info has changed as the versions of kubuntu or the versions of linuxmce has changed.  So what may be right today may be hosed tomorrow.  Please anyone finding wrong documentation, ADD to the wiki saying what you found or why it is wrong.  OR what hardware caused it to hose.

the irc channel is on irc.freenode.net   the channel is #linuxmce

and like I said there is usually 40+ people in there round the clock, and the main developers stay in there most of the time along with some of us less skilled developer-wanna-bes answering questions.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: totallymaxed on March 21, 2008, 09:19:38 am
I'm glad to finally hear some comments from others on how misleading the wiki is.  The idea of removing it completely, and just adding back those parts that are KNOWN to be correct sounds great to me. 

On the other hand, can you honestly expect a newbie who started with the wiki, moved on to the forums, and spent real money on hardware that was supposed to work to then move on to IRC expecting a solution?  I'm not sure if that was ever even suggested to the OP, nor do I remember anyone pointing me there when I was having problems and was about to give up completely.

Look the Wiki is an incredible resource - I use it everyday for many things related to LinuxMCE. But the problem is that it is a 'live' animal with both changing & some 'stale' content... and not enough willing helpers to keep it fresh or to extend it. People like Zaerc have pressed tirelessly for all of us to get into the Wiki and use it and IMPORTANTLY update it. He certainly made me think about it differently! I know from personal experience that at first editing and updating the Wiki is a pain... but the more you do it the easier it gets. There is power in numbers... if we can get exponential growth in the amount of 'editors' updating the Wiki then the quality & accuracy will improve very quickly indeed ;-)

Andrew
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: bradandersen on May 18, 2008, 10:08:57 pm
 ???  >:(  :'(

Yep, I'd have to agree a little.  This product is not for the faint of heart or the Linux shy.  I was looking for a good weekend project - this certainly was not it!  I've spent 3 days reading posts and trying to figure it all out to no avail.  It did install perfectly and then proceeded not to find anything (TV Tuner, USB IR Remote, Sony DeMux/Service, Shared drives on my local network).  Currently, it is a very nice Flickr screensaver.

*Recommendation 1: Put links for everything on the Wiki, The Homepage, and The Forum so users can easily jump around without bookmarks.

I didn't know what I had other than an HP m8100n Media Center PC so I was at a bit of loss as to if my system was compatible.

*Recommendation 2: Perhaps a little script that does an lsusb and lspci and uploads/compares/flags it would be nice before I wipe away a perfectly good working Windows Media Center

BTW, I have:
TV/FM Tuner Card: Conexant CX23418 (Not currently MythTV compatible so I'm quite SOL)
IR Transceiver: Alcor Micro Corp. (IR Receiver with 2 transmitters)

Although the UI is perfect (except I don't know how to control a music CD or DVD just yet) the installation is far from Fisher-Price.

Signing off I will say that the concept is awesome and I wish you all the best of luck.  I just wish all of the developers would come together on a single project to make a product like this happen for the good of all mankind.  Perhaps if I actually purchase the products I will have a little better luck and provide some funding to the core of this product.

Also, do not try to make a custom USB (A-> A) cable for a Sony Bravia DeMux/Service port as it doesn't work.

Thanks,
Brad
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: bradandersen on May 18, 2008, 10:23:23 pm
What I was looking for in this product that might keep a few other users around a little bit longer and avoid frustrations:

*Get the core Media Server built, polished and EASY
 -I want to plug it in, have it discover my media and work
  -Discover remote shares, make it easy to add/mount them
  -Once I load the KDE Desktop and map a drive, where do I copy media files to???  Put those folders on the desktop.
  -How do I mount an SMB drive and have it be seen
  -An import option?
 -Why the internal and external IP (good tech reasons I'm sure)
 -It is in my living room, I want to connect to the Admin interface from my office or VNC/Remote Support
 
*Compete with Windows Media Center PCs
 -Support the hardware they ship with

Bitch, bitch, bitch....

However, once again, thanks for the incredible work you are attempting to accomplish - I'll be back in 6-12 months.
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: los93sol on May 19, 2008, 12:14:19 am
Discussion of restructuring the forums moved to: http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=5263.0
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: skerit on May 19, 2008, 01:30:40 am
My only complaint is the unsynchronized releases, because it makes a lot of stuff harder to fix.

Other then that, I agree LinuxMCE is much more then a regular media center like Mythbuntu. It has a much more massive code base with a lot more features, so it'll take a while, but we'll get there.

I had to remove LinuxMCE 0710 from my HTPC a few days ago because I needed to test my Technotrend DVB-s2 S2-3200 card, using Mythbuntu, and I do miss LinuxMCE! :P
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: bradandersen on May 19, 2008, 05:40:30 pm
Since the code is still somewhat "alpha", can we include a few more utilities in the menus ("Beta Tools") which might include the LIRC config tool, etc.  My remote worked out of the box with Mythbuntu, but they couldn't get my display to work as well as LinuxMCE.  The Mythbuntu remote option that worked was "Windows Media Center Remote (Newer Remote, Philips, etc.)".

I will continue with LinuxMCE when I have much more time on my hands as Mythbuntu left me just as Dazed and Confused as LinuxMCE.

Thanks again,
Brad
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: tschak909 on May 19, 2008, 07:11:26 pm
our LIRC support is still very embryonic. Do keep in mind that our native messaging system provides the framework for the support of each type of IR transciever.

Currently the best supported transcievers are:

* USB UIRT
* GC-100
* Tira
* IRTrans

Every one of those above, except the IRTrans support learning from the UI, although IRTrans learning support is pending.

We will try to add support for LIRC, but we need more people to help make it happen.

-Thom
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: mmnogueira on May 19, 2008, 10:40:24 pm
LinuxMCE is far from ready for the masses.
...
The "concept" is great.... however...

Agreed.

The disappointment with Vista MCE and the LMCE demo video have made me try the product. After struggling alone for a few weeks without success I decided to hire a Linux Professional to help. Working together a couple of weeks more we've managed to put it to partially run almost problem-free for a month now. Follows my initial considerations:

1. The product is fantastic. My compliments to the dev team and contributors.
2. It isn't - by any means - a product for the masses. The responsibles might kill the product if they insist in adopting this approach.
3. IMHO too much development effort is put on wizards, automatic detections, guided installation scripts and technical questions.
4. The UIs needs a lot of refining (a work that we contributors can do).
5. Its translation and localization must be much more easy to accomplish.
6. The menus must be much more easy to edit.

IMO the time spent by the developers in trying to make a "do-it-yourself" product would be much more useful if directed to solve its known problems and enhance its functionalities.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to an average user to setup LMCE. The AV Wizard, the Setup Wizard with videos, the automatic detections with technical questions, and the technical actions of some menus (e.g. "Resend A/V Codes"...) among other stuff, obstruct IT professionals like myself to recommend the product to customers. I won't dare to install LMCE "as-is" in a client because he/she will panic as soon as prompted for an answer to an hermetic question (e.g. "A new USB dongle was detected. What should I do with it?"...), and call our support staff at 2:00 AM. Please remember also that the average user doesn't even know what "Linux" is. "KDE Desktop" means nothing to him/her, and LMCE's KDE needs a lot of customization to become "understandable" for the common user.

My suggestion is to produce a PAID version for professionals who want to work with LMCE. I'm not familiar with GPL licensing, and don't know whether this is possible or not, but I see that, in keeping this "do-it-yourself" approach, the product will remain restricted to geeks and soon be surpassed by its competitors. And this will be a pity.

Just my 2 cents,

Marcos Nogueira
S. Paulo - Brazil
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: samuelmukoti on May 20, 2008, 07:02:35 am
I disagree!

1. I don't believe anyone who doesnt know what windows is, Linux or MacOSX is should be installing an operating system on their own.  You say the average person would be vexed by what a "USB dingle" is?

2. Not everyone is going to install LinuxMCE on their own, or Windows for that mater, many windows users I know would be lost, and don't even understand what a "driver" is! 

I believe the devs have done well with the automated setup, thats one of the beauties of LMCE! 

I do agree that there needs some UI refinement and that it should be easier for contributers to assist I'm that manner, but there is work under way UI3 is in the works and will achieve this

Best regards,

Sam
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: tschak909 on May 20, 2008, 08:02:42 am
samuel:

UI3 is still vapourware at this point. We need more people who are willing to learn Designer to extend the _EXISTING_ UI. Why do you think I am making all the screencasts?

*hmm*

-Thom

Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: mmnogueira on May 20, 2008, 06:30:03 pm
Hello Samuel,

1. I don't believe anyone who doesnt know what windows is, Linux or MacOSX is should be installing an operating system on their own.  You say the average person would be vexed by what a "USB dingle" is?
Not vexed, but lost.

2. Not everyone is going to install LinuxMCE on their own, or Windows for that mater, many windows users I know would be lost, and don't even understand what a "driver" is! 
That's true.

I believe the devs have done well with the automated setup, thats one of the beauties of LMCE! 
Yes it is, but the problems will begin AFTER the installation.

I do agree that there needs some UI refinement and that it should be easier for contributers to assist I'm that manner, but there is work under way UI3 is in the works and will achieve this
I'm learning the Designer in order to help the development of more refined - and customizable - UIs.

Best regards,

Marcos
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: mmnogueira on May 20, 2008, 06:35:06 pm
Hello Thom,

UI3 is still vapourware at this point. We need more people who are willing to learn Designer to extend the _EXISTING_ UI. Why do you think I am making all the screencasts?

*hmm*
The screencasts are excellent! I'm learning the Designer by following your instructions. It's difficult, but no more than developing in CA-Visual Objects <BG>. Right now I'm working on the translation, but haven't succeeded so far.

Best regards,

Marcos
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: cirion on May 21, 2008, 06:24:17 am
My suggestion is to produce a PAID version for professionals who want to work with LMCE. I'm not familiar with GPL licensing, and don't know whether this is possible or not, but I see that, in keeping this "do-it-yourself" approach, the product will remain restricted to geeks and soon be surpassed by its competitors. And this will be a pity.
Hahahahahahahaha :):):)

Sorry but LinuxMCE IS THE "do-it-yourself" version of a payable version :) If you want to pay for a system look at Pluto:
http://plutohome.com/index.php?
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: mmnogueira on May 21, 2008, 05:13:00 pm
Hahahahahahahaha :):):)
?

Sorry but LinuxMCE IS THE "do-it-yourself" version of a payable version :) If you want to pay for a system look at Pluto:
http://plutohome.com/index.php?
Thanks for the info. However, I didn't find there any form to order the product.

Marcos
Title: Re: Why I left LinuxMCE for MythBuntu
Post by: tschak909 on May 21, 2008, 05:48:06 pm
fill out the form for i am a dealer.

-Thom