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General => Developers => Topic started by: RichardP on January 09, 2008, 07:23:17 am

Title: HA in Australia
Post by: RichardP on January 09, 2008, 07:23:17 am
I've been playing around with LMCE 0710 Beta2, and have been thoughroughly impressed. Lots of problems, but very enjoyable and very impressive potential.

One problem - I can't make my lights follow my remote movement  :o

Pity I discovered LMCE only after I sold my house fully automated with CBus  :(

Anyway, I want to automate my current house and connect the automation to LMCE - and I'm not afraid of the development work necessary to get there. Are there any other brave souls that want to journey down this road with me?

First step is to select a an automation system that can be retrofitted. CBus is not a good choice - I don't want to pull cladding off the wall to install the control cables, and Wireless CBus is quite a bit more expensive.

PLCBus? Sounds interesting - does anyone have any experience with it?

X10 - it has some bad press regarding reliability, and I want my system to be robust. I want my automated house to just work - I don't want to have to reboot my computer each time my fridge motor induces a pulse down the powerline.

Oh yeah - I also want my automation system to be independent - I want it to be controllable from a computer system like LMCE, but I don't wan't it to be dependant on a computer. Turn off all the computers in the house and lights must still be controllable from the wall switches and/or IR remotes or whatever - which implies decentralised intelligence like CBus (and PLCBus, from what I've heard)


Best Regards,
Richard.
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: ddamron on January 09, 2008, 08:11:03 am
RichardP,

Insteon is soon coming to 50Hz.. and PLCBUS is already there.

Insteon is already integrated.  Please search the wiki for INSTEON

PLCBUS integration is proceeding as we speak.  Hari and I are attacking this code.

You're welcome to add / suggest.. please examine the posted code and try to get 'familiar' with the structure.

The coding is all in Ruby. (Interpreted OO scripting language) and most of the code is in the developer's forums.. (search for PLCBUS)

HTH,

Dan
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: jo006 on January 09, 2008, 08:36:04 am
I am in the process of renovating my house and was preparing to install Clipsal C-Bus.  I do not think it would work with LMCE as is, however I found a Linux driver on the Clipsal web site. 

I am open to suggestions for an alternative system.

Justin
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: tschak909 on January 09, 2008, 08:48:54 am
dude, it's not the end of the world, a driver can be written.... Dan hammered together the Insteon driver with no previous experience with this stack.

-Thom
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: 1audio on January 09, 2008, 08:51:07 am
Lighting control- there are two types. One for new construction and really crazy money that is fully centralized. The high end Lutron system is that way. The other is much more retrofit oriented. The light switches are essentially light switches that can be local or remote.
I think the first type is an expensive solution to a non-existent problem. Its very expensive to implement and when a component fails you are really screwed. The product lifecycle for this stuff is 10 years or so and then what do you do to get parts. The second will be easy to retrofit indefinitely and will work fine even when the system is down (no timers or automation but the lights work).
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: slampt on January 09, 2008, 09:52:57 am
Hey RichardP

I am in the same boat.

My plan is to use a security system that I can integrate the lighting with then use LMCE to talk to that.
I am a bit funny about having a PC control * in my house, so using a embedded device to control the "critical" components of the house makes more sense to me. My plan is to stage me HA fit out in the following way.

I am building a house in WA and I am currently drawing up the plans for "smart wiring" (note: I have LMCE running at my current house but only to play with and do my HTPC shiz.)

Anyway after the house is built and all the wiring in place. The first step for me is to install the security stuff (i will be using an elk-m1g.) All my critical stuff will be controlled by this,  security, lighting, etc.
I will then need to integrate this with LMCE (as this is what I will be using to present a shiny control interface to the house :P) and then all the other little bits, climate, reticulation, curtains, voip, etc etc :P
This is a WIP and my plans will need to be expanded on but thats the gist of it. 

So yeah I guess what I am saying is I too am looking for a lighting solution that will work well in AU and not cost my first born. Ohh yeah something that is bi-directional too is a must!! :P




Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: ddamron on January 09, 2008, 09:55:33 am
FYI... The Elk M1G supports Insteon... ;)
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: slampt on January 09, 2008, 10:42:44 am
FYI... The Elk M1G supports Insteon... ;)


It sure does :P now to find some reasonably priced shiz for AU....
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: RichardP on January 09, 2008, 10:55:57 am
Insteon is soon coming to 50Hz.. and PLCBUS is already there.

(hmm) Yes, I know. I got all excited when I saw one of your posts about it a while ago, then got all dejected when I discovered it was not for us at the moment. But I'll keep checking...
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: RichardP on January 09, 2008, 11:01:33 am
I am in the process of renovating my house and was preparing to install Clipsal C-Bus.  I do not think it would work with LMCE as is, however I found a Linux driver on the Clipsal web site. 

I am open to suggestions for an alternative system.

Justin


CBus is great. I had my entire house fully automated with CBus - even to the point where the bathroom extractor would come on with the steam from the shower. It's reliable and dependable. But it uses Cat5 cable which must be laid from device to device, so it's only practical when you are building from scratch or if the house is single-level.

Whether it works for you depends on how deep your renovation is going.

As for working with LMCE - just an implementation detail. As they say in the open-source world - have code, will build!

Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: RichardP on January 09, 2008, 11:23:05 am
So yeah I guess what I am saying is I too am looking for a lighting solution that will work well in AU and not cost my first born. Ohh yeah something that is bi-directional too is a must!! :P


Anything decent will be bi-directional, so no problem there. Cost will always be a factor - we are working on the cutting edge, and will have to pay a premium for it until it falls into the mainstream.

I'm curious as to why you are set on a security system as the "focal point" for want of a better word. What's your thinking there? Is it simply that that's what is most important to you, and so will be implemented first, or is there a technical reason that makes it necessary?

With most devices nowdays offering interconnection though RS232 or ethernet, LMCE can talk to any or all of the system components and reduce the potential for a single point of failure.

Would you be able to send me a weblink for the elk-m1g?

Best Regards,
Richard.

Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: slampt on January 10, 2008, 06:57:47 am
One of the reasons for me starting with Security, is because I think that is the most important thing in my house :P
Not only does it make me feel "secure" but it also gets me cheaper insurance *grin*

The Elk stuff can be found at http://www.elkproducts.com/ (IIRC Ness are the AU distributors).

Because the elk (for example) supports various other "Home Automation" things. I would much prefer to use that to drive say the lighting also.  This way if my Linux Box dies some functionality remains.  An embedded system has less chance of failure IMO, and a security product configured/installed properly "should" not fail.  So I should still be able to control lighting via LMCE through the elk I just will need to do some work to make the magic happen. etc.

Sorry I don't have time to expand on this (or ramble on) some more, work is actually making me work. :P



Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: jo006 on January 10, 2008, 11:17:56 am
Whether it works for you depends on how deep your renovation is going.

I am building in underneath my house and also replacing the cladding and roof so it should be relatively easy to install the required cabling.  Being an electrician with an IT background will also help with the programming and getting the C-Bus modules at wholesale price.

Justin
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: colinjones on January 11, 2008, 02:41:55 am
RichardP - for what its worth, I'm interested in HA in AU as well. Can't really do much on the coding side. But looking for a reliable, fast (so not X10!), bidirectional system at a reasonable price. Very interested in what Dan is upto at the moment with Hari on PLCBUS...
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: tschak909 on January 11, 2008, 04:04:23 am
Dan and Hari have managed to get PLCBUS stuff working in short order. The lighting system became functional, today.

-Thom
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: RichardP on January 11, 2008, 08:03:31 am
RichardP - for what its worth, I'm interested in HA in AU as well. Can't really do much on the coding side. But looking for a reliable, fast (so not X10!), bidirectional system at a reasonable price. Very interested in what Dan is upto at the moment with Hari on PLCBUS...

The bidirectional bit is part of my concern as well. I'm leaning towards PLCBus at present, but one of my concerns is reliability. When you have your lights controlled by some electronic gizmo, you don't want the system to start behaving strangely every time someone uses a radio in a police car outside, or if the temperature climbs into the 40s. With CBus, I knew the system was bulletproof. With PLCBus or Insteon, I don't yet know that.

Anyway, I'm glad I'm not alone. I think there are around 4 now who have stood up to be counted. Once we make a decision on which system to go with, we may be able to buy together and reduce prices through bulk buying.

Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: ddamron on January 11, 2008, 08:14:48 am
Iaye karumba!
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: colinjones on January 11, 2008, 01:37:31 pm
Iaye karumba!

Well said :)

Have to say (with no disrespect to Dan's efforts), I am glad we have a "coder" in Australia now, cos it will help this very small market stand on its own two feet rather than rely on "charity" from people like Dan :)

BTW - I have 4 VSP's expressing interest in creating the config files for Asterisk in AU, now. And one of them gave me a list of about 50 of his franchisees to approach as well.
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: RichardP on January 12, 2008, 06:09:22 am
Iaye karumba!

Well said :)

Have to say (with no disrespect to Dan's efforts), I am glad we have a "coder" in Australia now, cos it will help this very small market stand on its own two feet rather than rely on "charity" from people like Dan :)

BTW - I have 4 VSP's expressing interest in creating the config files for Asterisk in AU, now. And one of them gave me a list of about 50 of his franchisees to approach as well.

Well what are we waiting for. I say we get cracking on Asterisk - what say you?
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: totallymaxed on January 12, 2008, 08:57:57 am
RichardP - for what its worth, I'm interested in HA in AU as well. Can't really do much on the coding side. But looking for a reliable, fast (so not X10!), bidirectional system at a reasonable price. Very interested in what Dan is upto at the moment with Hari on PLCBUS...

The bidirectional bit is part of my concern as well. I'm leaning towards PLCBus at present, but one of my concerns is reliability. When you have your lights controlled by some electronic gizmo, you don't want the system to start behaving strangely every time someone uses a radio in a police car outside, or if the temperature climbs into the 40s. With CBus, I knew the system was bulletproof. With PLCBus or Insteon, I don't yet know that.

Anyway, I'm glad I'm not alone. I think there are around 4 now who have stood up to be counted. Once we make a decision on which system to go with, we may be able to buy together and reduce prices through bulk buying.



Well we've been using z-wave now for over 18 months and we have numerous installations now and in all that time we have not had a single report of any kind of radio interference - it just does not happen in our experience. Zensys have put a lot of money and effort into the radio hardware and firmware and it hass been 100% interference free todate.

That is not to knock Insteon or PLCbus in anyway at all... but dont' rule out z-wave based on concerns over interference ;-)

Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: ddamron on January 12, 2008, 11:09:40 pm
With Insteon, the more devices you have, the stronger the signal..

and both protocols can send a confimation.. (as I'm sure zwave does)

With my setup, the 'only' time I've had my lights 'freak out' is when I've made a boo boo in programming...
(wife didn't like that...)
heh, it was interesting though.. I was attempting to get the status of each light, and forgot to ignore the message I sent to myself... (and had a conversion problem)...

All the lights started going crazy.. hehe, it as freaky!

anyway, the point is, with pretty much all the newer technologies, interference is pretty much a thing of the past...

Regards,

Dan
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: RichardP on January 13, 2008, 03:10:29 am

Well we've been using z-wave now for over 18 months and we have numerous installations now and in all that time we have not had a single report of any kind of radio interference - it just does not happen in our experience. Zensys have put a lot of money and effort into the radio hardware and firmware and it hass been 100% interference free todate.

That is not to knock Insteon or PLCbus in anyway at all... but dont' rule out z-wave based on concerns over interference ;-)



I didnt' mean to give the impression that I was ruling it out.  I was just saying what sort of things I was considering important in my selection of which technology to go for.

The possibilities that I know of currently are:

X10 was never really a contender because it is not a reliable, biderectional protocol. What I mean is that when you press a switch on one X10 device, to turn on a light, it may end up turning the light off instead, because the light was already on and the switch did not know it. In other words, it is not bidirectional. It's also not reliable, because a signal sent from one X10 device to another may never get to it's destination, and the original X10 device will not know about it.

CBus has been discounted, because although it meets all my other criteria, I cannot install it in an existing house without a lot of expensive wall-cutting and restoration.

CBus-Wireless will fill my needs nicely, but before I use it, I need to determine if Insteon or PLCBus will fill my needs better, or if they will fill my needs just as well, but at a lower cost.

The problem I have at the moment is that I don't know enough about them to make a decision. So at present, I'm poring the net and the supplier's websites to get a better understanding of them, and the discussion in this forum is also part of the education process.

Best Regards,
Richard.
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: ddamron on January 13, 2008, 05:20:22 am
X10 was never really a contender because it is not a reliable, biderectional protocol. What I mean is that when you press a switch on one X10 device, to turn on a light, it may end up turning the light off instead, because the light was already on and the switch did not know it.
Richard,

I don't know what kind of X10 you have.. but the X10 I have doesn't work like that.
there are seperate ON and OFF commands.. so it should be IMPOSSIBLE for a device to TOGGLE state..
If that is the case, you have other problems.. like maybe a bad script?

Although it's not widely known (or used), X10 HAS been expanded to support bidirectional communication.
That said, they are still DUMB devices, and even IF a device reports it's status, you still have all the other limitations of the ageing X10 protocol.

I'd compare it to a bicycle to a motorbike..
The Bicycle will eventually get you there, with lots of effort, but the motorcycle is much more fun (imo).

It might not be a bad idea to review the X10 specs...

HTH,

Dan
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: darrenmason on January 13, 2008, 11:57:35 pm

The possibilities that I know of currently are:
  • CBus
  • CBus Wireless
  • X10
  • Z-Wave
  • Insteon
  • PLCBus


I am close to buying some PLCBus stuff, but have not had a chance to sit down and work out exactly what and where from.
I think Z-Wave would be the only other option at the moment but I have not seen any sign of it being used here (Australia) and certainly no distributors/retailers.

Insteon will not be an option until they have a 220V/50Hz range.

Have you found anyone in Australia that will actually sell PLCBus gear to you. There seems to be companies bringing it in but they are all using it as part of full solution offerings.

I am really against it costing more than say $80 per switchable lamp/appliance/whatever. I just can't really justify it over that I think.

But I agree, we should be able to do a bit of bulk buying on some or maybe even convince a distributor to take it on.

Regards
Darren

ps; Richard, where are you? I am in Sydney.
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: RichardP on January 14, 2008, 03:21:02 am
It might not be a bad idea to review the X10 specs...

Dan

Will do. However, tell me something - do I have the right idea when I say some of the other protocols like Z-Wave and/or Insteon are essentially X10 with the missing bits put in? If so, I'll just go with the newer protocols. The thing is that you have some existing X10 gear and so need to keep backward compatability. I don't - I'm able to start fresh and make sure anything and everthing I add to my network is bulletproof from the outset.
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: tschak909 on January 14, 2008, 03:21:53 am
Z-Wave has ZERO compatibility with X-10.

-Thom
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: RichardP on January 14, 2008, 07:41:32 am


Insteon will not be an option until they have a 220V/50Hz range.

Have you found anyone in Australia that will actually sell PLCBus gear to you. There seems to be companies bringing it in but they are all using it as part of full solution offerings.

I am really against it costing more than say $80 per switchable lamp/appliance/whatever. I just can't really justify it over that I think.

But I agree, we should be able to do a bit of bulk buying on some or maybe even convince a distributor to take it on.

Regards
Darren

ps; Richard, where are you? I am in Sydney.

Hi Darren,

I'm in Melbourne. If we work together in any way, if we need anying physical sent between us, I know someone who travels between Melbourne and Sydney relatively often and works in the city.

As for the cost, I think PLCBus gear will fit comfortably into that sort of pricerange, and some of the others might as well.

Do you have a set preference for PLCBus? I'm currently facing off between Z-Wave (recently found there is a 220V option), PLCBus and CBus-Wireless (which is interoperable with CBus wired).

As for the Australian supplier - if there is no local supplier, I want to become a distributor, so I would see that as a positive. I'm hoping to sell LMCE systems (or even Pluto) once I get my own off the ground. That said, I should say I'm not trying to make you my first customer! I'm seeing you as someone with the same interests, who would be valuable as a way of getting another (local) expert opinion, and who might validate my thinking, or show up the flaws in them.

And if we do decide to go in the same direction, then there is still the possibility of a combined order which will reduce costs for both of us. Horrible how shipping can often come to more than the cost of the product intself.  :o

Best Regards,
Richard.
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: darrenmason on January 14, 2008, 12:04:24 pm
Richard,

No no real preference, just seemed like the easiest route at the moment. The interfacing with Z-Wave seems to still be a bit of problem due to hard to get USB interfaces or unsupported ones - and then the protocol does not seem particularly available.

The USB interface for PLC-BUS has a well supported (in linux) serial interface so that should make it a lot easier to develop. Dan seems to be making good progress already.

Is there many devices available in the 220V Z-Wave range? Cost?

Regards
Darren
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: colinjones on January 14, 2008, 08:10:03 pm
Darren/Richard

I'm also interested (and also in Sydney) - but somewhat limited as I am renting at the moment (the property I own is leased as an investment, currently), but still prepared to see what I can do with the place. I'm also considering commercial options in the future like Richard.

I always assumed that ZWave came in 220+V options because many of the Europeans (like Andrew in the UK) talked about it. But kinda struck it off my list after reading that the last compatible controller was discontinued, and there didn't seem to be a clear frontrunner replacement - mostly because of the USB chips that the manufacturers kept choosing having limited/no Linux drivers.

X10 is not an option for me (slow/effectively uni-directional - I know, Dan, there is an option, but given your comments, it doesn't sound like the way to go!) Insteon is likely to take some time before there is a siginificant number of devices in the 220/50 range. EIB now called KNX, the European standard, is obscenely expensive! CBus seems pretty proprietary, and inconvenient in anything but the wireless form. PLCBUS seems to be the closest match, unless there is a breakthrough with the ZWave stuff. I think the ZWave stuff will need to battle it out with the 220/Insteon stuff to capture the EU, Asia, AU/NZ markets.
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: ddamron on January 14, 2008, 11:46:13 pm
It might not be a bad idea to review the X10 specs...

Dan

Will do. However, tell me something - do I have the right idea when I say some of the other protocols like Z-Wave and/or Insteon are essentially X10 with the missing bits put in? If so, I'll just go with the newer protocols. The thing is that you have some existing X10 gear and so need to keep backward compatability. I don't - I'm able to start fresh and make sure anything and everthing I add to my network is bulletproof from the outset.

Yes, Richard, All the missing bits are now 'specced' in the newer protocols..

Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: ddamron on January 14, 2008, 11:51:09 pm
Colin/Darren/Richard,

If you're looking for something to use, I would recommend PLCBUS.  This protocol is based on 50Hz regions, and we currently have a test site (Hari) up an running.  I'm in the middle of debugging a new interface to handle a lot of the GSD/Ruby limitations (threading for example).

PLCBUS will be the next protocol available.

HTH,

Dan
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: RichardP on January 15, 2008, 08:03:48 am
Colin/Darren/Richard,

If you're looking for something to use, I would recommend PLCBUS.  This protocol is based on 50Hz regions, and we currently have a test site (Hari) up an running.  I'm in the middle of debugging a new interface to handle a lot of the GSD/Ruby limitations (threading for example).

PLCBUS will be the next protocol available.

HTH,

Dan

Thanks Dan. PLCBus is on my shortlist, and an existing codebase was one of the biggies as far as selection factors go. I'm still going through the protocol itself. It is currently school holidays here in Australia, which means I'm spending less time on it, but what I've seen of it so far has not caused me any cause for concern. It's beginning to look like it may be PLCBus, thanks in no small way to you and Hari.

Best Regards,
Richard.
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: ddamron on January 15, 2008, 03:43:28 pm
I might add, PLCBUS will be sooner than later.. ;)

Dan
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: MazdaPete on January 16, 2008, 12:01:35 pm
I have been reading this thread with interest.

But I am confused - ddamron - You say in your profile "INSTEON Everywhere", but I read it's not in a 220v version?
You are in Sydney right?  (Me too)
What gives?

Anyway, so is PLCBUS the way to go right now?

And where do you buy this hardware, and how much are we talking for these devices???

I'm in the speech recognition industry... I've had a long-standing back-of-mind thought to make speech recognition happen for HA... I have the technical background, but it's a non-trivial bunch of work... Hardly seems worth the effort until the network hardware gets sorted out once and for all (die X10, die!).
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: MazdaPete on January 16, 2008, 12:14:47 pm
You are in Sydney right?  (Me too)

Whoops, think I got you mixed up with darrenmason - Sorry.

So Aussie people: What are:
1) The preferred hardware for HA in Australia (Topic of the thread right!!!),
2) Source of the hardware,
3) Some rough prices?
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: ddamron on January 16, 2008, 04:56:12 pm
I have been reading this thread with interest.

But I am confused - ddamron - You say in your profile "INSTEON Everywhere", but I read it's not in a 220v version?
You are in Sydney right?  (Me too)
What gives?

Anyway, so is PLCBUS the way to go right now?

And where do you buy this hardware, and how much are we talking for these devices???

I'm in the speech recognition industry... I've had a long-standing back-of-mind thought to make speech recognition happen for HA... I have the technical background, but it's a non-trivial bunch of work... Hardly seems worth the effort until the network hardware gets sorted out once and for all (die X10, die!).

heh, guess you figured out I'm in Calgary, AB Canada...
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: RichardP on January 17, 2008, 03:13:53 am
Anyway, so is PLCBUS the way to go right now?

And where do you buy this hardware, and how much are we talking for these devices???

I'm in the speech recognition industry... I've had a long-standing back-of-mind thought to make speech recognition happen for HA... I have the technical background, but it's a non-trivial bunch of work... Hardly seems worth the effort until the network hardware gets sorted out once and for all (die X10, die!).


Welcome to the thread. Google for PLCBus and you'll get lots of links to go through. If you want to develop speech-recognition for HA, I'd suggest LMCE is the ideal platform for that. You don't concentrate on the HA devices to control, but rather to control LMCE. When you've got LMCE responding to a command, it can then control the device, whether that device is a HA-controlled light, a TV or whatever.

Doing it that way means each time a new device or protocol becomes available, you don't have to change the speech-recognition routines.

As for whether PLCBus is the way to go, the jury is still out. It's looking strong, and I'll probably go with it, but we'd still value your opinion here.

For my 10 cents, I'm probably going to go with a mixture of PLCBus and CBus, but that is based on my current needs, and your needs may vary.

Best Regards,
Richard.
Title: Re: HA in Australia
Post by: ddamron on January 17, 2008, 05:28:44 am
Richard,
You bring up a good point..

your not 'STUCK' with any particular protocol...
your system can implement ALL of them at the same time...
so, Go with your gut..go with what suits you.
if it happens to be PLCBUS, great.  if it happens to be CBus, all the best..

My point, coming from an integrator of HA stuff..
is that PLCBUS is almost done, and I don't know what's next.. so many protocols, so little time..

I think there is a need to redo X10.. make it bidirectional... and in Ruby.

Whether that is before or after protocol X and Y., no clue. (my head is so wrapped up in OO world)

Regards,

Dan