LinuxMCE Forums

General => Users => Topic started by: Marie.O on January 03, 2008, 08:55:07 am

Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: Marie.O on January 03, 2008, 08:55:07 am
Are you looking for a totally new computer, or just ideas for implementing storage within an existing system?

If it is the later one, I suggest a good quality 8-Port SATA-II RAID controller (about 450€), like the TEKRAM (ARECA) ARC-1220 or TEKRAM (ARECA) ARC-1120. Start with three 1TB drives (ea 350€), get a good SATA backplane (abut 100€) and you are set. With a little bit of luck you will end up below 1500€. I assume pricing in USD will be similar. You save some money by getting a 3WARE RAID controller, but those have some performance problems (or so I have heard) with bigger files.

BTW: I would not put all my files onto a single partition, because of problems with large file system sizes.

rgds
Oliver
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: posterberg on January 03, 2008, 01:57:59 pm
I've been using LVM and one partition for about 5 year on a continuously growing filesystem  (currently 2 TB). But I am going to split it up now, I agree with Oliver - there are problems.

I am thinking about using simple 2 disk NAS cases and have 1 TB in each case.
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: Marie.O on January 03, 2008, 02:01:24 pm
After playing with some network storage together with LMCE I will not go that route. Maybe it should work, but my experience has been bad when using cifs or nfs mounted drives with LMCE. So, my installation(s) will not use NAS, but local storage. Maybe iSCSI is another route.

rgds
Oliver
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: Misogynist on January 03, 2008, 02:33:24 pm
In the system I'm going to set up, I was planning on using a Fedora 8 Xen Dom0, I want to set up one Xen DomU using Openfiler as my storage system (crypted with truecrypt), and share the storage in a virtual NAS (and a real NAS to the MDs) - the LinuxMCE will run in a DomU as well.

So this topic is quite interresting to me. Especially the one parts about big partitions - because I'm planning on putting 4 TB drives into a raid 5 - and using it as one big partition.
The other thing I'm interested in, is the 3ware controller. I planned on getting a 3WARE 9550SXU-12.

Could you guys be more specific about those problems you were talking about? Since that could throw over a big part of my project...

Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: Marie.O on January 03, 2008, 03:00:21 pm
Regarding the 3Ware performance problem. http://forums.storagereview.net/index.php?showtopic=25923 (http://forums.storagereview.net/index.php?showtopic=25923) this is what I have found.

rgds
Oliver
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: Matthew on January 03, 2008, 04:13:55 pm
750GB drives are currently about $165ea, so 2.25Tb is probably $525 shipped inside the US; 500GB drives are about $95 shipped, so 2TB is about $400. LMCE includes SW RAID that's probably just as good for home use as what you'd get from a SATA RAID card. You can get servers with 4xSATA for under $250. So $650-800 will get what you want with new HW. A cheap (but perfectly adequate, with LMCE SW RAID) 2xSATA card is something like $15, so an existing cheap PC with 2 builtin SATA ports will do. In either case you can probably also add an Orbiter to that NAS PC without lacking performance for either task.
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: rrambo on January 03, 2008, 04:25:25 pm
After playing with some network storage together with LMCE I will not go that route. Maybe it should work, but my experience has been bad when using cifs or nfs mounted drives with LMCE. So, my installation(s) will not use NAS, but local storage. Maybe iSCSI is another route.

rgds
Oliver

I built a FreeNas setup for my storage....  very low hardware requirements and of course the software is free....  I currently only have about 1TB of media so can't comment on problems with larger filesystems...  I had absolutely no problems using this NAS with lmce 7.04...  after installing the 7.10 beta2 I've had some problems, but it could be bugs with the beta or I could have just had a problem with my setup....  (shares disappearing but coming back after rebooting the core/hybrid)
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: Marie.O on January 04, 2008, 01:10:39 pm
After playing with some network storage together with LMCE I will not go that route.
[..]
[..]after installing the 7.10 beta2 I've had some problems, but it could be bugs with the beta or I could have just had a problem with my setup....  (shares disappearing but coming back after rebooting the core/hybrid)

This is exactly the problem I encountered. But it might have to do with me accessing the Samba server on the outside network.

rgds
Oliver
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: tschak909 on January 05, 2008, 06:01:35 am
dsk: what specifically?

-Thom
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: Matthew on January 05, 2008, 07:42:13 pm
This subject is offtopic to this thread. So I have posted it in a new topic, called "Ubuntu Home Server" (http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=3690.msg20240#msg20240), copying this post. Please continue discussion of it in that other topic.


This project is coming along nicely:
http://www.ubuntuhomeserver.org/ (http://www.ubuntuhomeserver.org/)

I hope that both of these projects do not try to do to much (focus on getting the things they can perfect) but in the future could work together to make one hell of a system.  I like the security of the UHS, the GPL, and its data storage capabilites.  I like LMCE to play media and automate the house.  I worry about security in LMCE.

That UHS project is designed to make Ubuntu 0804 include more features for the home, including simpler GUIs for administering services for a networked multimedia home. Since LMCE is supposed to be a further packaging on top of Ubuntu, there's no reason they can't work together, if designed properly modularly. They each need to be able to omit their specific chosen components in favor of workalike substitutes that meet the same API. And their installers need to be complementary.

So UHS needs to be able to use the LMCE component where the two projects present alternatives. And LMCE needs to be able to install as packages onto UHS the way it currently does on Kubuntu, but also select (and substitute) between packages where they conflict between the two. The Debian/Ubuntu APT installation system accommodates that requirement well, so if it's used properly we can do it. But the main upgrade to LMCE is just being able to upgrade an LMCE's underlying Ubuntu against the Ubuntu repository systems, including a new Ubuntu version, without trashing the rest of LMCE. LMCE 0710 is supposed to allow that. If it does, integrating the two complementary systems will be fairly straightforward.

And beneficial. Mainly because there would be a larger, unified community of developers, who could work together on the unified set of tasks. And because the "conflicts" in each project's selections for functions also offer more choices, therefore appeal to a larger group of users who might prefer one or another choice. And also because the requirements for the integration would improve the overall robustness of each project, more integrable not only with each other, but also with other possible systems, either current or to come in the future.

I recommend people participate in this discussion in each project's forums. The UHS project started in reference to LMCE back in May, so we're catching up with them in cooperation. Even if the UHS project dies, it's worth looking at for more features and robustness as a home solution. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: Zaerc on January 05, 2008, 08:04:57 pm
This subject is offtopic to this thread. So I have posted it in a new topic, called "Ubuntu Home Server" (http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=3690.msg20240#msg20240), copying this post. Please continue discussion of it in that other topic.


This project is coming along nicely:
http://www.ubuntuhomeserver.org/ (http://www.ubuntuhomeserver.org/)

I hope that both of these projects do not try to do to much (focus on getting the things they can perfect) but in the future could work together to make one hell of a system.  I like the security of the UHS, the GPL, and its data storage capabilites.  I like LMCE to play media and automate the house.  I worry about security in LMCE.

That UHS project is designed to make Ubuntu 0804 include more features for the home, including simpler GUIs for administering services for a networked multimedia home. Since LMCE is supposed to be a further packaging on top of Ubuntu, there's no reason they can't work together, if designed properly modularly. They each need to be able to omit their specific chosen components in favor of workalike substitutes that meet the same API. And their installers need to be complementary.

So UHS needs to be able to use the LMCE component where the two projects present alternatives. And LMCE needs to be able to install as packages onto UHS the way it currently does on Kubuntu, but also select (and substitute) between packages where they conflict between the two. The Debian/Ubuntu APT installation system accommodates that requirement well, so if it's used properly we can do it. But the main upgrade to LMCE is just being able to upgrade an LMCE's underlying Ubuntu against the Ubuntu repository systems, including a new Ubuntu version, without trashing the rest of LMCE. LMCE 0710 is supposed to allow that. If it does, integrating the two complementary systems will be fairly straightforward.

And beneficial. Mainly because there would be a larger, unified community of developers, who could work together on the unified set of tasks. And because the "conflicts" in each project's selections for functions also offer more choices, therefore appeal to a larger group of users who might prefer one or another choice. And also because the requirements for the integration would improve the overall robustness of each project, more integrable not only with each other, but also with other possible systems, either current or to come in the future.

I recommend people participate in this discussion in each project's forums. The UHS project started in reference to LMCE back in May, so we're catching up with them in cooperation. Even if the UHS project dies, it's worth looking at for more features and robustness as a home solution. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

So first you say this is offtopic and should be discussed in another thread, and then you go on to discuss it here...  ::)
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: Matthew on January 05, 2008, 08:10:38 pm

So first you say this is offtopic and should be discussed in another thread, and then you go on to discuss it here...  ::)

Yeah, that's how to continue a conversation when forking it. It's like a pager program overlapping successive pages by their first/last lines, so readers can preserve the context.

Now you are complaining about my offtopic post, which is metaofftopic (offmetatopic? offtopmetic?).
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: Zaerc on January 05, 2008, 09:00:19 pm

So first you say this is offtopic and should be discussed in another thread, and then you go on to discuss it here...  ::)

Yeah, that's how to continue a conversation when forking it. It's like a pager program overlapping successive pages by their first/last lines, so readers can preserve the context.

Now you are complaining about my offtopic post, which is metaofftopic (offmetatopic? offtopmetic?).
Seems more to me, that's how you annoy people with crossposting.  And I'm not complaining, just pointing out the stupidity of it all.  Maybe I should have just started another useless thread about that too, as it seems like the fashionable thing to do these days... :P

Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: tschak909 on January 05, 2008, 10:48:52 pm
dsk: It is a known problem, and we are trying to rectify it... We would really like some help in this area.

-Thom
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: tschak909 on January 06, 2008, 12:24:47 am
every bit of help would be fantastic. :)

-Thom
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: dragon_788 on January 07, 2008, 07:03:53 am
Sparkie, you might look into unRAID, its a VERY promising solution (that delivers from what I've read) that allows you to have one disk crash without losing any data, and even if two disks die, you ONLY lose the data on those two disks, the rest of the disks are still readable (this is NOT possible with any other kind of consumer affordable RAID). Please check the forked thread for a link to my post in the Ubuntu Home Server forums about my dream of the ultimate trifecta of servers/software. BTW, unRAID is sold by Lime Technology, but they have a free version that supports 3 drives (2 data 1 parity) so you could get at least 2tb of storage just by buying 3 1tb drives (pricey, but hey, that's a LOTTA space).
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: delta_9 on January 07, 2008, 11:57:07 am
don't have much to say other than get the drives as big as you can 1TB as the more disks you have the more power you use to spin the little suckers up the drives cost more upfront but will save in the long run man if you run a core 24/7 make you cash back in no time good luck getting it "smooth" man.
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: dgirard on January 07, 2008, 06:55:17 pm
Here's another related question...

What's the best platform for the storage?...NFS?...Jbod (local disk)?...or Samba/Cifs?

On the data safety standpoint...the idea of unRaid sounds appealing to me and it seems I need to do a little reading on that one...from a backup perspective...I'm using Mosy...4.95 per month for unlimited on-line system backup....it's going to take me a year to get everything backed up a 700K/sec, but then it'll be safe in the event of any catastropy...I wonder if they'll still like me as a customer once I get 4Tb backed up there...  ;D

I dont' knwo if Mosy has a unix client...I do mine from my windows server.
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: Marie.O on January 07, 2008, 08:07:53 pm
What's the best platform for the storage?...NFS?...Jbod (local disk)?...or Samba/Cifs?

For a comparison, look here http://www.javvin.com/NFSdoc/nfsperformance.html (http://www.javvin.com/NFSdoc/nfsperformance.html), and to broaden your choice even more, look at iSCSI, which might be an even better choice, if you want to have network connected storage http://www.technomagesinc.com/papers/ip_paper.html (http://www.technomagesinc.com/papers/ip_paper.html)

Apart from that, local storage is ALWAYS fastest.

rgds
Oliver
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: blackoper on January 08, 2008, 06:15:52 am
ooh goody finally a topic I'm an expert in..
for $2000 you can get massive amounts of storage.
I personally think it is wasteful to use an entire computer just as a fileserver. There is not much resource usage on one, as you are pretty much limited by the drives. I have a combined system using software raid. Currently there are 12 Sata drives in it, and one ide 2.5" laptop system drive. Total storage ~5.5TB
Also with the newest 2.6.24 kernel that will be out in the next month, sata port multipliers will be supported by default. Buy two sata sil3132 pci-e 2 channel sata 2 cards and you have 20 drive software raid (i'm already doing it but it takes a custome compiled kernel)

The sweet spot right now is the 750GB drives. For $143 a piece I bought some brand new western digital 750gb drives with 3 year warranty.
so cost breakdown of a kick arse file server or combo box

Case - Coolmaster Stacker - up to 20 drives in the front using 5in3 sata backplanes $90 @- http://www.directron.com/stct01ww1.html (http://www.directron.com/stct01ww1.html)

5in3 sata backplanes - go for about $100 - here is a comprehensive listing http://wiki.lime-technology.com/wiki/index.php?title=SATA_Hard_Disk_Stackers (http://wiki.lime-technology.com/wiki/index.php?title=SATA_Hard_Disk_Stackers)

Power supply - something over 600 watts with active PFC to have high effiency. I'm using a 750 Toughpower

Mobo and cpu- amd or intel.. anything with low power usage and high reliability. Also the more pci and pci-e slots the better. Try getting one with built in firewire as well. I really like the intel E2180 chip as it uses very little power (12-18 watts in idle) it also overclocks to 3.5ghz easily on air if you need it to.

Ram - 2gb of cheap ram is fine. There is always a deal going on with HP ram for $7 per GB after rebate pc 800 chips

So pricelist so far
5x750gb drives in a software raid 5 - less than $750 also there are 4 internal ide spts in the included 4in3 in the stacker case, so you can buy a few more and include those in the raid5. If you use more than 5 disks in a raid5, I'd recommend having one set up as a hotbackup in case one fails.
stacker case $100
5in3 sata backplane - $100
power supply - $100
motherboard - we'll say  $100
processor - again we'll say $100
ram - $20 after rebate
high quality power supply (do not skimp!) - $100
for 5 sata drives you can probably use on board without extra pci-e add on cards  so free there
System drive - $50

total cost = less than $1420

As for a comparison of Samba vs NFS vs iSCSI
Samba transfer speeds over gigabit ethernet - Raid 0 - 7200 rpm sata 2 32MB cache drives - write - 85MB/s  - read - 98MB/s - gigabit maximum is 125MB/s - I have dual bonded gigabit - adding a 2nd computer using the servers bonded ethernet - total write - 110 MB sustained writes, Reads- 138MB/s
iSCSI - write - 50MB/s with a much higher top processor/memory usage - Read - 70MB/S - iSCSI isn't a good standard. It's a resource hog - couldn't push it anyhigher using bonded gigabit
NFS - about the same as samba, but I get a lot of IObound errors when using it with myth. Gave up on nfs as samba is more universal.
Title: Re: Media Storage Idea
Post by: Matthew on January 08, 2008, 06:56:26 am
I'll be receiving this week a $20 11-bay tower case with 350W powersupply. Into it will go the first 4 750GB drives I got for $140ea/shipped. I'm going to try using some $8 SATA/USB adapters, each with its own SATA PS. The case's own PS is for future equipment, and at $20 why turn it down? A $30 7-port USB hub will let it all plug into my Core's single USB port. Since I've got a 100Mbps LAN, the 4 drives will bottleneck at the LAN, not over USB's <480Mbps.

For those not doing the math at home, that's $642 for 3TB, expandable to 7.5GB for another $918. I could probably go for an extra $75 450W PS and power all the drives without their dedicated PS bricks, probably a power savings.

If it doesn't work out as USB, I'll probably add a cheap mobo with 100Mb ethernet, with either a lot of onboard SATA connectors, or some multiport SATA PCI cards, or both, whichever is cheaper.

LMCE doesn't use anywhere near the performance available on these high-capacity components. In fact, I wish I didn't have to pay for such fast transfer rates, seek times and caches, if I could save an extra 10% for that much more storage.

Anyone know of a <$1000 jukebox for 500-800GB tapes, that will work with LMCE like the 200-disc changer supported internally by mtx?