LinuxMCE Forums

General => Marketplace => Compatible Products & Services => Topic started by: ddamron on December 30, 2007, 07:37:27 am

Title: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: ddamron on December 30, 2007, 07:37:27 am
I'm toying around with the idea of designing some hardware to take HA to the next step...
I would like to get people's opinions of some of these ideas...

HA currently has 'controls'... not much in the form of monitoring though...

What I mean are things like GAS FLOW METERS, current monitors (based on the actual circuit breaker), Furnace efficiency monitors, water metering, etc..
Temperature sensors are already here..
Most of these are easily monitored 1wire devices exist for temperature, force, acceleration...
We could use Field Effect Transistors to monitor water flow...
Passive Current monitoring is easy...
possibly alternative energy sources.. Solar, Wind, extreme hot/cold climates..

Any thoughts?  Ideas?  comments?

Dan

Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: bulek on December 30, 2007, 09:39:19 am
I'm toying around with the idea of designing some hardware to take HA to the next step...
I would like to get people's opinions of some of these ideas...

HA currently has 'controls'... not much in the form of monitoring though...

What I mean are things like GAS FLOW METERS, current monitors (based on the actual circuit breaker), Furnace efficiency monitors, water metering, etc..
Temperature sensors are already here..
Most of these are easily monitored 1wire devices exist for temperature, force, acceleration...
We could use Field Effect Transistors to monitor water flow...
Passive Current monitoring is easy...
possibly alternative energy sources.. Solar, Wind, extreme hot/cold climates..

Any thoughts?  Ideas?  comments?

Dan



Currently it's hard to show any other device on floorplan properly beside few that are supported with controls....

See :

http://mantis.linuxmce.org/view.php?id=3456 (http://mantis.linuxmce.org/view.php?id=3456)
http://mantis.linuxmce.org/view.php?id=3629 (http://mantis.linuxmce.org/view.php?id=3629)
http://mantis.linuxmce.org/view.php?id=3704 (http://mantis.linuxmce.org/view.php?id=3704)

HTH,

regards,

Bulek.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: tschak909 on December 30, 2007, 07:22:53 pm
so... we have the code.... we fix the flaws in the system.

-Thom
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: cadman97 on December 30, 2007, 07:40:20 pm
Square D makes a Panelboard that has motorized C/B's and is controled thru an RJ-45 connection. I will get the model and post it for you.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: Amathus on January 02, 2008, 08:58:56 am
Yes - we are doing similar stateside and in Australia - contact me at mpap4699@bigpond.net.au for more information.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: totallymaxed on January 02, 2008, 10:47:16 am
so... we have the code.... we fix the flaws in the system.

-Thom


Yep... I agree Thom.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: totallymaxed on January 02, 2008, 10:58:05 am
I'm toying around with the idea of designing some hardware to take HA to the next step...
I would like to get people's opinions of some of these ideas...

HA currently has 'controls'... not much in the form of monitoring though...

What I mean are things like GAS FLOW METERS, current monitors (based on the actual circuit breaker), Furnace efficiency monitors, water metering, etc..
Temperature sensors are already here..
Most of these are easily monitored 1wire devices exist for temperature, force, acceleration...
We could use Field Effect Transistors to monitor water flow...
Passive Current monitoring is easy...
possibly alternative energy sources.. Solar, Wind, extreme hot/cold climates..

Any thoughts?  Ideas?  comments?

Dan



I think being able to add those kinds of sensors would be great... but I think to make that process easier and have longterm value we need to do some foundation work first;

What I think we need is a well thought through stable way to add new home control protocols and therefore their physical interfaces to LinuxMCE. We also need, as Bulek mentions, to support all devices a Floorplan objects so that all devices can be managed/manipulated/displayed in the floorplan.

Once we have that adding any kind of sensor using any kind of technology would be a piece of cake. The current way this is achieved in side LinuxMCE requires to much custom code etc in my opinion. We need to make the implementing a new driver a few hours work because all of the higher level stuff is just already written and working.

We have a bunch of highly motivated and clearly talented people here who are doing great stuff. With some structural changes, better docs about the underlying LinuxMCE mechanisms, API's etc and some collective effort this could be achieved i believe.

Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: ddamron on January 02, 2008, 12:37:27 pm
Totallymaxed:

Well put! and I totally agree..
Bulek has some VERY VALID points, and I agree with him.

Damn, another reason to learn C++... crap.

lol

Dan
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: 1audio on January 06, 2008, 08:33:23 am
Two major modules need to be added to LMCE. They are both significant holes in the product. The first is an energy monitoring and management module. Something that can monitor energy use with a gadget like this http://www.save-electricity.ca/faqs.html (http://www.save-electricity.ca/faqs.html) or this http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html (http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html) and give meaningful reports of energy usage patterns, relate to events possibly and show costs of energy. And has a great green aspect.
The second is home health monitoring and maintenance. Everything from keeping track of grandma's activitys (to alert the kids if something unusual has happened) to reminders to take the daily medicine to remote monitoring of health items ranging from environmental to linked blood pressure and heart rate monitors for either exercise or the fragile in health.

Both would benefit from some careful planning on the integration and structure in advance. And LMCE's integrated structure makes these both more powerful and really easier since a lot of the necessary stuff is already there.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: totallymaxed on January 06, 2008, 02:06:39 pm
Two major modules need to be added to LMCE. They are both significant holes in the product. The first is an energy monitoring and management module. Something that can monitor energy use with a gadget like this http://www.save-electricity.ca/faqs.html (http://www.save-electricity.ca/faqs.html) or this http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html (http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html) and give meaningful reports of energy usage patterns, relate to events possibly and show costs of energy. And has a great green aspect.
The second is home health monitoring and maintenance. Everything from keeping track of grandma's activitys (to alert the kids if something unusual has happened) to reminders to take the daily medicine to remote monitoring of health items ranging from environmental to linked blood pressure and heart rate monitors for either exercise or the fragile in health.

Both would benefit from some careful planning on the integration and structure in advance. And LMCE's integrated structure makes these both more powerful and really easier since a lot of the necessary stuff is already there.

I totally agree with both your suggestions... home energy consumption is an enormously important issue and integrating this into LinuxMCE would be a great capability;

Here are some great products for monitoring energy around the home (They have Euro, UK and Australian variants) and use Bluetooth and Zigbee to interconnect the meters to a PC. http://www.plogginternational.com/index.html (http://www.plogginternational.com/index.html)



I also agree that being able to do health monitoring for any individual in a home would be another very compelling capability.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: Matthew on January 06, 2008, 06:55:46 pm
Two major modules need to be added to LMCE. They are both significant holes in the product. The first is an energy monitoring and management module. Something that can monitor energy use with a gadget like this http://www.save-electricity.ca/faqs.html (http://www.save-electricity.ca/faqs.html) or this http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html (http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html) and give meaningful reports of energy usage patterns, relate to events possibly and show costs of energy. And has a great green aspect.

I totally agree with both your suggestions... home energy consumption is an enormously important issue and integrating this into LinuxMCE would be a great capability;

Energy monitoring would be a compelling feature of LMCE, and a perfect fit to its other features. Partly because one inhibition to using a system like LMCE is that it encourages increased energy use. But if LMCE could offer reduced energy use from before, then that feature alone might attract many people, and completely mitigate the fears of extra consumption with the new features. In fact, LMCE might be recommended by utilities and governments that are currently working to increase conservation, and at least increase consumer awareness of consumption patterns and waste. Even if not recommended by name, various new conservation specs (like the One Watt Initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Watt_Initiative)) that follow the successful US DoE Energy Star (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Star) program would make LMCE a "design win" in filling those specs. And of course it's morally responsible to include conservation (or at least reporting) services in a system that can increase consumption (and waste, if abused).


Here are some great products for monitoring energy around the home (They have Euro, UK and Australian variants) and use Bluetooth and Zigbee to interconnect the meters to a PC. http://www.plogginternational.com/index.html (http://www.plogginternational.com/index.html)

Know of any US voltage/plug equivalents? Also, it seems such a monitor would best transceive data across the powerline network itself. Or even directly connect to a LMCE node PC, and monitor its outlet, rather than a remote one (if it doesn't need to be inline at the site's incoming power source). In fact, power monitoring of controlled devices seems like a natural feature of a "deluxe" appliance controller module (Insteon/X10/Z-Wave/etc). Is there such a class of device?

It also strikes me that LMCE could deliver a crude approximation of power metering in SW only, for devices it controls. If each device's consumption profile data is known, then LMCE can tabulate the states of the device against those data over time, to report the expected consumption. Is there existing SW that could be just integrated into LMCE to deliver those features? Maybe one with an existing open community that could be invited to use their expertise in their package to integrate it into LMCE?
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: 1audio on January 06, 2008, 07:01:40 pm
The Lonworks powerline modules are supposedly capable of reporting back power usage. Although it isn't always in the product. And they communicate via powerline. And the energy detective uses the powerline for communications. But its designed for installation in the breaker box.
Since green technology is a very important issue today perhaps we can convince someone to make the monitors available if there is a system that can exploit them.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: totallymaxed on January 06, 2008, 08:16:05 pm
Two major modules need to be added to LMCE. They are both significant holes in the product. The first is an energy monitoring and management module. Something that can monitor energy use with a gadget like this http://www.save-electricity.ca/faqs.html (http://www.save-electricity.ca/faqs.html) or this http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html (http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html) and give meaningful reports of energy usage patterns, relate to events possibly and show costs of energy. And has a great green aspect.

I totally agree with both your suggestions... home energy consumption is an enormously important issue and integrating this into LinuxMCE would be a great capability;

Energy monitoring would be a compelling feature of LMCE, and a perfect fit to its other features. Partly because one inhibition to using a system like LMCE is that it encourages increased energy use. But if LMCE could offer reduced energy use from before, then that feature alone might attract many people, and completely mitigate the fears of extra consumption with the new features. In fact, LMCE might be recommended by utilities and governments that are currently working to increase conservation, and at least increase consumer awareness of consumption patterns and waste. Even if not recommended by name, various new conservation specs (like the One Watt Initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Watt_Initiative)) that follow the successful US DoE Energy Star (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Star) program would make LMCE a "design win" in filling those specs. And of course it's morally responsible to include conservation (or at least reporting) services in a system that can increase consumption (and waste, if abused).


Here are some great products for monitoring energy around the home (They have Euro, UK and Australian variants) and use Bluetooth and Zigbee to interconnect the meters to a PC. http://www.plogginternational.com/index.html (http://www.plogginternational.com/index.html)

Know of any US voltage/plug equivalents? Also, it seems such a monitor would best transceive data across the powerline network itself. Or even directly connect to a LMCE node PC, and monitor its outlet, rather than a remote one (if it doesn't need to be inline at the site's incoming power source). In fact, power monitoring of controlled devices seems like a natural feature of a "deluxe" appliance controller module (Insteon/X10/Z-Wave/etc). Is there such a class of device?

It also strikes me that LMCE could deliver a crude approximation of power metering in SW only, for devices it controls. If each device's consumption profile data is known, then LMCE can tabulate the states of the device against those data over time, to report the expected consumption. Is there existing SW that could be just integrated into LMCE to deliver those features? Maybe one with an existing open community that could be invited to use their expertise in their package to integrate it into LMCE?

I totally agree Mathew that energy monitoring and management are going to be a killer application for LinuxMCE and also that its important to have this capability for the reasons you outline.

I am sure there must be equivalent energy metering hardware for the US market. The Plogg units are well designed and have a simple interface and protocol to get the data into the Core's DB. The Plogg units are designed to do spot metering of specific devices or rings (there are other metering devices that measure the whole-house usage from the domestic side of the electricity supply meter supplied by your energy supplier). I agree a powerline based plugin unit would make a hell of a lot of sense. I think we need to implement an open architecture for adding these types of energy metering devices so that we can support devices that have right interfaces/protocols in the future.

Any software only solution would I think be far too inaccurate for real use... whole house metering can be done for about £90 UKP so it really is not an expensive add on... especially when you consider the payback possible through lower energy usage.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: bulek on January 06, 2008, 08:31:19 pm
Hi,

I agree - a lot of various features seem to be important for each of us. But we have one strong common point - we need to implement generic support for possibility of showing state of any device on floorplans and that would solve all those problems. This is basic framework - on top of that, alot of new features can be added - but we need to solve basic problems (in my view "generic state changed" event or something similar can solve this)... Also a lot of stuff is currently hardcoded in plugins, so in majority it's not enough if you add certain device to certain category that it will be shown on floorplan... Behaviour is currently not consistent.

I have talked to Chris and Eugene some time ago, and we agreed that such support will be experimentally added for lighting and climate plugin, but currently I'm not sure if this has happened.... Will check that with Chris tomorrow.

Regarding energy consumption :
1. I agree, energy metering is important, but when you'll see numbers with your core and MDs running + other amplifiers, devices etc... :-(   ...
I currently have this already implemented in home automation level, and I can see current consumption. And I'm a bit sad, we need to do a lot of work to bring such consumption down - one of the most important features of smart home platforms is also lowering energy consumption, but with system like LMCE it currently rises too much....

2. regarding measuring power consumption: I have implemented it in pretty simple way. In our country (Slovenia), we must buy household electric meters that already have pulsing output (in my case I get 500 pulses per 1kWh). My electricity provider has let me connect to that output (it's described in one of IEC standards) and I just measure time between pulses and estimate current consumption. So I'm measuring exactly same thing as I'm paying for... Nice feature, I bet a lot of you have same or similar possibility... I also had some smaller meters in consideration, but this was by far cheapest and really exact solution...

HTH,

regards,

Bulek.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: ddamron on January 06, 2008, 08:44:25 pm
There's a lot of municipalities that won't let you connect to their meters..  I would bet that most won't.  If you can, all the power to you! (pun intended)
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: totallymaxed on January 06, 2008, 09:04:54 pm
There's a lot of municipalities that won't let you connect to their meters..  I would bet that most won't.  If you can, all the power to you! (pun intended)


The units that do that here do not physically connect to the supply. They have a clamp on attachment that attaches to the cable without breaking or damaging the insulation and uses inductive sensing to measure the load.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: bulek on January 06, 2008, 09:55:08 pm
There's a lot of municipalities that won't let you connect to their meters..  I would bet that most won't.  If you can, all the power to you! (pun intended)

Hi,

I also had problems with mine electricity provider (since they offer similar service for a lot of money - for instance web access to only average consumption per 15 mins interval is something like 9 EUR/month). But I contacted our national supervisor agency and they couldn't find any legal restriction that would allow providers to prevent users from accessing devices they ought to buy. Currently this area is a bit gray in legal meaning. Maybe this will change in future, when providers will put their pressure on this service...

By plain logic, we must buy our meters on our expences and there is awkward if someone else is limiting use of such device by no apparent safety or other "legal" reason - beside plain preference of selling own services for the same thing... Pulse output is galvanically separated from other parts of meter and is technically meant for such use (majority of "big" electricity consumers is already using this feature....).

Maybe there is a way to avoid your electricity provider's unlogical restrictions in a perfectly legal manner...

HTH,

regards,

Bulek.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: ddamron on January 06, 2008, 10:09:53 pm
I agree..  I can only think of two ways to do so:

1.  Use a Field Effect Transducer to sense the spinning magnet inside the meter
2.  Passive Current sensing after the meter, but before the panel.

The first would be the most accurate.. but then again, Utility companies don't like to see 'electronics' wrapped around the meters... (something about making them spin backwards...)

The second is the type of device I was aiming for.. more or less..  If cheap enough, we could implement it on a per circuit basis too.. (that would show WHAT is using all your power!)

There is a third way, Active Current Sensing inside the panel. (I doubt this is viable)

Regards,

Dan
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: Matthew on January 06, 2008, 10:33:21 pm
I agree - a lot of various features seem to be important for each of us. But we have one strong common point - we need to implement generic support for possibility of showing state of any device on floorplans and that would solve all those problems. This is basic framework - on top of that, alot of new features can be added - but we need to solve basic problems (in my view "generic state changed" event or something similar can solve this)... Also a lot of stuff is currently hardcoded in plugins, so in majority it's not enough if you add certain device to certain category that it will be shown on floorplan... Behaviour is currently not consistent.

I have talked to Chris and Eugene some time ago, and we agreed that such support will be experimentally added for lighting and climate plugin, but currently I'm not sure if this has happened.... Will check that with Chris tomorrow.

I agree that truly generic device/floorplan support is essential as the base on which to add any other function, including the energy properties of existing devices, and a new device type that monitors energy at the device or supply points. But that's just system support for an application that could use such data for management. Like an app that uses a floorplan to reduce lighting to the minimum redundancy. Or running some appliances, like washer/dryer, only in offpeak grid times, or against queries of Internet parameters for overall energy efficiency (eg. when power price rates are lower). Or other automation for conservation. There are probably already existing apps that have existing interfaces that consume power usage data.


Regarding energy consumption :
1. I agree, energy metering is important, but when you'll see numbers with your core and MDs running + other amplifiers, devices etc... :-(   ...
I currently have this already implemented in home automation level, and I can see current consumption. And I'm a bit sad, we need to do a lot of work to bring such consumption down - one of the most important features of smart home platforms is also lowering energy consumption, but with system like LMCE it currently rises too much....

It looks like LMCE now has a feature to suspend/restore MDs to/from Flash drives in a few seconds per cycle. Just adding a timeout GUI query for MD shutdown could reduce their energy from "always on" to "on for a couple hours a day". If an installation has more than one MD, such operation could reduce power consumption by over 50%, perhaps even closer to 99% (like a single core and 20 MDs in a large installation).

LMCE already has Bluetooth support. It could build on that BT support to include "presence" logic. Real consumption could track which room has a user's BT device (like a cheap BT earpiece), and activate devices (including lights) only in that room. We might even see "Bluetooth slippers". There might eventually be some way to heat only rooms with presence data, like when lots of usage data shows that some zones can be shut down for some times of day.

There are other directly relevant apps. Like scenarios that shut down appliances except essentials during blackouts, while the whole house runs off a large UPS, and calculates allowances for discretionary use in the duration. If an installation has a generator (stored fuel, wind/solar, etc) and can sell back to the grid, that complexity will be even more popular to actually exploit if something like LMCE can manage it.

But the key is standardized interfaces. There are other projects for managing homes which might be better platforms for power management than is the Linux Media Center Edition. LMCE might be the system to collect power use info from sensors, and control the state of other devices. It might be the UI for creating scenarios that include power management factors. But perhaps other systems that aren't really "media center" systems are the better scope within which to handle the rest. It's LMCE's job to make sure it can interop with those. And if there's no existing outside tech, but people add it to LMCE, then that subsystem should be modular and factorable.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: colinjones on January 06, 2008, 10:37:21 pm
Dan - By passive current sensing do you mean as in a current loop around the conductor? I think that is what totallymaxed is saying that the plogg system does anyway. Plus interestingly, it explicitly states that it measures the power factor too - it actually talks about the voltage/current phase angle, but I assume that this means that their software actually includes the power factor in its calculation.

1) I think that most power meters use a fixed, assumed angle of 90 degrees for domestic power. If so, measuring the actual would give a further opportunity for savings as you could not only limit total power, but also low power factor devices (motors, A/C, etc) which read on your meter as consuming more power than they actually do (rip off, I know!) because their power factor is lower than the assumed one at the meter, and so save more cash - getting into imaginary/complex number mathematics, here, but theoretically it should also save of CO2 emissions as well as the power stations would not have to generate or absorb VARS (imaginary power ... I know, but that is the reality of power generation, most powerstations can absorb the many hundreds of mega VARS that capacitive loads "generate") as well as generate Watts.

2) If there is no Linux version of their software (doesn't appear to be), then there is a bit of a job ahead in the maths area to replicate some of the algorithms so that LMCE could report and manage as well as the normal software....
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: Matthew on January 06, 2008, 10:37:54 pm
There's a lot of municipalities that won't let you connect to their meters..  I would bet that most won't.  If you can, all the power to you! (pun intended)

I also had problems with mine electricity provider (since they offer similar service for a lot of money - for instance web access to only average consumption per 15 mins interval is something like 9 EUR/month). But I contacted our national supervisor agency and they couldn't find any legal restriction that would allow providers to prevent users from accessing devices they ought to buy. Currently this area is a bit gray in legal meaning. Maybe this will change in future, when providers will put their pressure on this service...

By plain logic, we must buy our meters on our expences and there is awkward if someone else is limiting use of such device by no apparent safety or other "legal" reason - beside plain preference of selling own services for the same thing... Pulse output is galvanically separated from other parts of meter and is technically meant for such use (majority of "big" electricity consumers is already using this feature....).

Maybe there is a way to avoid your electricity provider's unlogical restrictions in a perfectly legal manner...

If you can get the consumption data, even in a marked-up webpage, from your power supplier live, then such data could be delivered into the local database via HTTP, too. Maybe something like device templates could be made by semi-skilled users to scrape their pages for the data. Since the power suppliers probably aren't writing their own publishing SW, but rather buying it from a SW supplier, there's probably plenty of redundancy in the interfaces presented around the world. I don't know if it's worth E9:mo, but if it can save that much (or close to it), then it might find wide adoption.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: Matthew on January 06, 2008, 10:45:08 pm
Dan - By passive current sensing do you mean as in a current loop around the conductor? I think that is what totallymaxed is saying that the plogg system does anyway. Plus interestingly, it explicitly states that it measures the power factor too - it actually talks about the voltage/current phase angle, but I assume that this means that their software actually includes the power factor in its calculation.

If that's how those plogg sensors work, then maybe they can work on any current, even those running different parameters than UK/etc current. Though the plogg specs do say "50Hz", which might not work on, say, North American 60Hz current. The sensor device's own 220V power requirement might be satisfied with a simple adapter to 110V.


1) I think that most power meters use a fixed, assumed angle of 90 degrees for domestic power. If so, measuring the actual would give a further opportunity for savings as you could not only limit total power, but also low power factor devices (motors, A/C, etc) which read on your meter as consuming more power than they actually do (rip off, I know!) because their power factor is lower than the assumed one at the meter, and so save more cash - getting into imaginary/complex number mathematics, here, but theoretically it should also save of CO2 emissions as well as the power stations would not have to generate or absorb VARS (imaginary power ... I know, but that is the reality of power generation, most powerstations can absorb the many hundreds of mega VARS that capacitive loads "generate") as well as generate Watts.

I would like to research that power wasting (and overbilling) phenomenon more. I advise the NYC legislature on tech issues, and they've been interested in electric conservation policies. Which includes some oversight of our huge Con Ed power monopoly. If NYC were to set guidelines, they would probably be adopted elsewhere (the typical response).
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: colinjones on January 06, 2008, 11:04:21 pm
hmmm... I can answer general questions for you on the subject, but the detail is very vague - I'm in IT now, it has been years since I was doing power engineering, and that was at the power generation/transmission stage, rather than reticulation and consumption.

In short - power factor is not relevant to purely resistive loads, but across capacitive or inductive loads (in all households to some extent, motors and other coils of conductor are inductive, things like fluoro tubes are capacitive), the current cycle gets phase shifted relative to the voltage cycle - same thing happens in speakers which causes frequency response changes, hence the speakers are rated as "impedance" rather than "resistance".

As power is the multiplication of voltage and current, if both do not peak at the same time, conventional power (in Watts) isn't as efficient as the 2 highest possible numbers for voltage and current never get multiplied together - that sentence was crap! Does it make sense?

Anyway, this is expressed as a second type of power - imaginary power (in vars), which combined with conventional power (in watts) gives you complex power (in VA - Volt-Amps, which you sometimes see written on the specs for electrical equipment, a sure sign that it is an inductive/capacitive load)

The power grid then needs to compensate for inductive loads absorbing vars, and capacitive loads generating them, otherwise the system voltage will fall or rise, respectively. This in the same way the power grid needs to compensate for increases or decreases in straight power consumption (watts) otherwise the system frequency will slow or speed up, respectively.

Industrial loads tend to have power meters that calculate the power factor (90 degs, or perfectly in phase is a power factor of 1, then as they go out of phase it goes down as a Cosine(?) function of the difference in angle between voltage and current) - this allows them to be more fairly metered for their usage as they tend to be highly inductive loads. This even means that some plants install their own capacitor/shunt farms to correct their own power factor and save money!

Wikipedia would surely have heaps on this stuff... will look to see what I can find...

Edit:BTW, imaginary power isn't as flippant a term as it sounds, it just reflects the mathematics - imaginary numbers + real numbers create complex numbers, a vector, meaning a magnitude plus an angle on an X-Y 2d graph...

Edit2: Here is something, not sure if it helps or hinders! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_power#Power_factor

Edit3: Ahhh, this bit talks a little bit about what I was trying to say! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_power#Reactive_power_flow
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: hari on January 06, 2008, 11:49:30 pm
This even means that some plants install their own capacitor/shunt farms to correct their own power factor and save money!
customer of mine did that in Austria and had enormous savings (big machines).

best regards,
Hari
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: Matthew on January 07, 2008, 12:03:05 am
hmmm... I can answer general questions for you on the subject, but the detail is very vague - I'm in IT now, it has been years since I was doing power engineering, and that was at the power generation/transmission stage, rather than reticulation and consumption.

In short - power factor is not relevant to purely resistive loads, but across capacitive or inductive loads (in all households to some extent, motors and other coils of conductor are inductive, things like fluoro tubes are capacitive), the current cycle gets phase shifted relative to the voltage cycle - same thing happens in speakers which causes frequency response changes, hence the speakers are rated as "impedance" rather than "resistance".

As power is the multiplication of voltage and current, if both do not peak at the same time, conventional power (in Watts) isn't as efficient as the 2 highest possible numbers for voltage and current never get multiplied together - that sentence was crap! Does it make sense?

Anyway, this is expressed as a second type of power - imaginary power (in vars), which combined with conventional power (in watts) gives you complex power (in VA - Volt-Amps, which you sometimes see written on the specs for electrical equipment, a sure sign that it is an inductive/capacitive load)

The power grid then needs to compensate for inductive loads absorbing vars, and capacitive loads generating them, otherwise the system voltage will fall or rise, respectively. This in the same way the power grid needs to compensate for increases or decreases in straight power consumption (watts) otherwise the system frequency will slow or speed up, respectively.

Industrial loads tend to have power meters that calculate the power factor (90 degs, or perfectly in phase is a power factor of 1, then as they go out of phase it goes down as a Cosine(?) function of the difference in angle between voltage and current) - this allows them to be more fairly metered for their usage as they tend to be highly inductive loads. This even means that some plants install their own capacitor/shunt farms to correct their own power factor and save money!

Wikipedia would surely have heaps on this stuff... will look to see what I can find...

Edit:BTW, imaginary power isn't as flippant a term as it sounds, it just reflects the mathematics - imaginary numbers + real numbers create complex numbers, a vector, meaning a magnitude plus an angle on an X-Y 2d graph...

Edit2: Here is something, not sure if it helps or hinders! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_power#Power_factor

Edit3: Ahhh, this bit talks a little bit about what I was trying to say! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_power#Reactive_power_flow

Well, I understand that the inductive behavior of equipment load can consume power in a way where nonlinear (self-reflexive, thus plottable on an imaginary-space graph)  interaction between the current and voltage makes the demand curve less purely sinusoidal than the supply curve. But I thought that the device itself, or maybe the device's site, would have to compensate for that with capacitors and inductors, not the supply source. But it's interesting to see how the power industry actually delivers the compensation.

What I'd like to research more is the waste that comes with that architecture. Either actual waste by overgeneration (or inefficiencies), or just accounting waste, where the accounting model overcharges for actually lesser generated power (if that's what happens). And more to the point, what can onsite power management do to directly compensate for that real/accounting waste (other than just turn off when unused). Especially in residential sites where LMCE fits.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: Matthew on January 07, 2008, 02:05:08 am
"Watt's Up (https://www.wattsupmeters.com/secure/products.php?pn=0&wai=0&more=2)" devices are single power socket meters with ethernet to an embedded httpd or USB (unknown protocol) for North American residential power.

And the PowerMeterStore.com has a catalog of them (http://www.powermeterstore.com/index.php?page=Sitemap).
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: 1audio on January 07, 2008, 07:55:32 am
Power meters vary around the world. in a sense the US is very behind since a large majority of the meters here are electromechanical, most based on a design that was last changed in the late 1930's. It does measure true power and that is also true for meters in the rest of the world. Where money is involved things can get remarkably sophisticated quickly and this happened around 1900. I linked two products that do interact pretty accurately with the meter. One literally watches the spinning dial and reports back to the monitor. The other comes with two current clamps and a voltage sensor that communicates over the powerline to the readout module. The readout module has all the calculations of the complex metering tariffs (5 levels here in California for residential service).

The rest of the world is moving to electronic meters fast to save money on reading meters (Its starting here in the US but Utilities are notoriously bad about implementing change, PG&E in California started the project 10 years ago and have not yet installed any that I know of.) The electronic metering opportunity created the market for smart metering chips, which spawned the devices I mentioned and the Kill_a_Watt http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html (http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html) which sells for $25 on eBay.

Italy standardized on the Echelon meter and Lonworks for reporting back to the system. And they are reputed to use it to manage loads in the home. I was told that the infrastructure is limited so the appliances talk to each other to manage the maximum load on the circuit. I.E. the washer turns off while the electric range is running.

Getting LMCE to work with this stuff would make it very powerful. As for energy management I see the biggest opportunity would be to replace the MD with a media adapter like one of these http://popcornhour.com/ (http://popcornhour.com/) that draws 15 Watts when running and starts pretty fast. And then to actively manage energy in a home. After the big things are improved it will take something like LMCE to reduce usage of things like low power lighting, HVAC and all of the other small loads.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: Matthew on January 07, 2008, 08:12:06 am
I think that if there's existing Linux SW with standard interfaces/protocols for managing power other than just computer equipment (and UPS'es etc), then that would be the place for LMCE to start. Unless it doesn't manage enough actual devices, and it would be less work to produce something new than to expand the existing SW.

But on a higher level than that, it would probably be best if the LMCE project actually included people with experience writing such power management network SW. Maybe it does, in which case the approach which offers LMCE the most reuse of the most generic but effective code to include the most popular monitoring sensors should be a question for them.

Failing all that, we'll just see who starts working it successfully first, like any open source / open project ;).
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: 1audio on January 07, 2008, 08:29:23 am
The place to look for power management is commercial building management software. I think Crestron, AMX, Siemens etc. all have stuff for this. We could at least understand the problem and lift specs and requirements for it from their datasheets. However this is still new stuff and there are lots of new things to figure out.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: Matthew on January 07, 2008, 08:44:27 am
The place to look for power management is commercial building management software. I think Crestron, AMX, Siemens etc. all have stuff for this. We could at least understand the problem and lift specs and requirements for it from their datasheets. However this is still new stuff and there are lots of new things to figure out.

Well, a cumulative hour or so Googling for various permutations of (linux "power management") showed nothing existing except managing power inside the computers themselves. Maybe if we knew at least the industry term for this facility we could find something to incorporate. Which is why I think the best approach would be to start with someone who already knew what they're talking about :).
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: 1audio on January 07, 2008, 09:14:37 am
Here is a link to a "decoder ring" for the terms of art for this stuff http://www.automatedbuildings.com/news/oct02/articles/netb/netb.htm (http://www.automatedbuildings.com/news/oct02/articles/netb/netb.htm) And the host site should open up some possibilities like this http://www.automatedbuildings.com/frame_resources.htm (http://www.automatedbuildings.com/frame_resources.htm)
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: Matthew on January 07, 2008, 09:25:38 am
Here is a link to a "decoder ring" for the terms of art for this stuff http://www.automatedbuildings.com/news/oct02/articles/netb/netb.htm (http://www.automatedbuildings.com/news/oct02/articles/netb/netb.htm) And the host site should open up some possibilities like this http://www.automatedbuildings.com/frame_resources.htm (http://www.automatedbuildings.com/frame_resources.htm)

I put the Building Owners and Managers Association (BOMA) magazines online in the mid 1990s (and incidentally invented Google AdWords for them), so I might be able to find someone there who might have some ideas. And I've also got some architects and home integrators to tap for references. But none of them are up at 3:30AM Monday in NYC - not for those kinds of questions, anyway :). More as it develops...
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: bulek on January 07, 2008, 12:14:14 pm
Hi,

I agree - a lot of various features seem to be important for each of us. But we have one strong common point - we need to implement generic support for possibility of showing state of any device on floorplans and that would solve all those problems. This is basic framework - on top of that, alot of new features can be added - but we need to solve basic problems (in my view "generic state changed" event or something similar can solve this)... Also a lot of stuff is currently hardcoded in plugins, so in majority it's not enough if you add certain device to certain category that it will be shown on floorplan... Behaviour is currently not consistent.

I have talked to Chris and Eugene some time ago, and we agreed that such support will be experimentally added for lighting and climate plugin, but currently I'm not sure if this has happened.... Will check that with Chris tomorrow.

...

HTH,

regards,

Bulek.

Hi,

I jsut talked to Chris (Pluto developer) today. He's willing to help with info. I'll move this discussion in new thread at :

http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=3715.0 (http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=3715.0)

Regards,

Bulek.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: hari on January 08, 2008, 01:11:41 am
found a nice european ZWave Multisensor:
http://wiki.linuxmce.com/index.php?title=Seluxit_Multisensor

i wonder if anybody has tried to get it working?

best regards,
Hari
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: DeadPenguin on January 29, 2008, 12:22:36 am
I stumbled onto this from the SYSTM Wired house video podcast.  http://revision3.com/systm/wihome/  (http://revision3.com/systm/wihome/) (this is the link to the podcast) The wired house had a nice pc dashboard that made energy usage very accessible.  http://www.luciddesigngroup.com/products_irisloggers.php  (http://www.luciddesigngroup.com/products_irisloggers.php)  The IRIS logger looks like it might fit in with this conversation.

Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: wscifi on February 04, 2008, 12:54:32 am
Check out http://www.misterhouse.com

It might contain some useful stuff .

wscifi
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: bmk789 on February 18, 2008, 02:45:28 am
I can't believe nobody has mentioned the potential to integrate CO/smoke detectors into LinuxMCE.  This could potentially let the system alert everyone in the house where a fire is, see the fire via webcam, and even automatically call the fire department/police/etc.
Title: Re: taking Home Automation to the next level...
Post by: Venom986 on February 18, 2008, 03:26:01 am
I can't believe nobody has mentioned the potential to integrate CO/smoke detectors into LinuxMCE.  This could potentially let the system alert everyone in the house where a fire is, see the fire via webcam, and even automatically call the fire department/police/etc.

Plus, if hooked into an "indoor irrigation system" automate some fire sprinklers ;)