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General => Users => Topic started by: Loki008 on December 28, 2007, 08:24:59 pm

Title: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: Loki008 on December 28, 2007, 08:24:59 pm
I have done some searching, and read the Wiki articles. From what i can tell is that there is development work being done on Insteon and it works, but i didnt see any posts saying hardware compatability for the controlers. As for Zwave i know that the new USB modules do not work, as as far as i can tell the only model that has been tested and confirmed working is a discontinued model that can be difficult to find.

My questions are these. I see that they list PLC as a supported controler, Is http://www.smarthome.com/2414u.html (http://www.smarthome.com/2414u.html) what they are refering to? According to smarthome this is version 2 of the device. As well as from what i have read that the Insteon code is still in development, is it included in the 704 build or is there additional steps required to get this working.

In regards to zwave, are there plans to support the current Intermatic controlers or is the fact that the manufacturer provides only Windows drivers the hold up and there is not much that can be done in terms of support at this time?

Basically i am looking for a controler that is fairly current and available that will allow control of zwave switches and devices.

I have also updated the zwave wiki to reflect that the current intermatic controlers are not supported as well.
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on December 28, 2007, 09:05:18 pm
Here's what's going to be supported as soon as it's released:

1.  Smarthome PLM (serial)

The PLM is the cheapest controller available.  It's a no bells and whistles serial / Insteon converter.

Probably a few days after:

2.  Simplehomenet's EZBridge / EZServe

The EZBridge/EZServe (same device, different firmware) will allow you to control a REMOTE location.
This device is an IP/Insteon Bridge.  Perfect for a Summer/Winter home...

(The driver is the same for both, I haven't done anything with the EZBridge side for a bit, so I'd like to confirm it's still working with all the new code I've written)

PeteK is/was writing the driver for the PLC..  (yes, the version 2)
Last I heard, I'm not sure if he's going to continue with it.. I know he bought a PLM and has been testing my code...

HTH, Dan

Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on December 28, 2007, 09:06:02 pm
Forgot to add..

The EZBridge uses a PLM to communicate to Insteon..
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: Loki008 on December 28, 2007, 09:09:30 pm
Thanks for the reply, any vague guestimate when the support may be released?

And i assume that http://www.smarthome.com/2412s.html is the PLM you are refering to? ( i am a bit confused over the PLM and PLC(serial) )
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: colinjones on December 29, 2007, 12:14:11 am
I'm still confused by all these different standards/products! Just so I understand - PLM/PLC/EZBridge/etc are all specific controllers to plug into a core, that then communicate/translate the commands into Insteon? So really its still only Insteon or X10 in terms of the actual devices (dimmers, etc)?

My issue, like the Europeans' is that Insteon don't do non-110v devices, and don't intend to from what I can tell (they said "coming" over a year ago, and I read something recently that said they were US-based and so saw no need to provide alternatives)

And X10 just seems too primitive and slow for words!
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on December 29, 2007, 12:28:51 am
Ok, Heres some definitions:

PLM - Power Line MODEM --- serial ONLY

PLC - Power Line CONTROLLER both serial and USB, equiv. to the old X10 cm11A
PLC's have smarts in them  timers, a clock, etc.etc..
PLC's (imho) are overkill for this application.

PLM's are cheaper

The PLM integration will include full BIDIRECTIONAL X10 support.

This is all to do with North America... 60HZ ONLY!!!
AFAIK insteon will NOT work on 50Hz as the Insteon signal start BEFORE the zero crossing.. and waits for 2 complete cycles..
the PLL (phase locked loop) timer that 'times' the zero crossings will never get a lock...

the EZBridge is EXPENSIVE($200 including PLM).  It communicates VIA a PLM (has to be connected directly to a PLM)
EZBridge (also EZServe) is smart, like the PLC, but imho, better.

EZBridges will take the Insteon message (out of the PLM) and encode it into an XML message and send it out via IP.

This is why I'm able to create two devices at the same time:  They both 'Speak' the same languase.. within reason.

HTH,

Dan

Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on December 29, 2007, 12:55:03 am
Oh, as far as when it'll be released,

I'm FIGHTING my way through PnP autodetection right now..

The Driver spiders the Insteon network, and finds all devices it can..
That works.

The part I'm on now, is reporting this information to LMCE, and getting LMCE to run the wizard to ask which room this device is in...
I'm TRYING to get it to blink the light (if it's a light)

Once that is done, a few days debugging (I've debugged most of it already)
My goal is for the new year..
Hopefully, that will be before the OFFICIAL release date of 0710.. and I MAY get it into 0710 in time...

Cross your fingers...

If it doesn't make 0710, I've been assured it can be released as a quick update to 0710.

HTH

Dan
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: 1audio on December 29, 2007, 04:40:12 pm
The current ZWave usb controllers are not supported. Actually its the USB chip that isn't supported under Linux. The leviton controller is a serial interface and could be supported easily but it needs someone who knows how to redirect the ZWave interface to look at the serial port (and deal with the PNP serial detection scripts).
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: totallymaxed on December 29, 2007, 04:51:05 pm
The current ZWave usb controllers are not supported. Actually its the USB chip that isn't supported under Linux. The leviton controller is a serial interface and could be supported easily but it needs someone who knows how to redirect the ZWave interface to look at the serial port (and deal with the PNP serial detection scripts).

Hmmm... well the ZCU201 seems to be supported but the driver needs to support the update z-wave firmware capabilities. We will hopefully have someone at Pluto looking at this in early Jan and also Dan I think is interested in z-wave too.
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on December 29, 2007, 09:49:57 pm
Once I finish the Insteon, I will be ready to tackle a new project..
I don't have any zwave devices..
I'm not sure if the next project I tackle will be GSD/Zwave or starting to learn C++
I think C++ would help me more in the long run...
I guess it depends on how BAD Zwave is needed... and if someone is willing to send me some hardware...

I think a capable programmer should only have to purchase equipment ONCE.
I can't afford purchasing zwave (and, honestly, can't rationalize it either)

:)
Dan
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: bigbrother0074 on January 01, 2008, 11:01:53 am
Once I finish the Insteon, I will be ready to tackle a new project..
I don't have any zwave devices..
I'm not sure if the next project I tackle will be GSD/Zwave or starting to learn C++
I think C++ would help me more in the long run...
I guess it depends on how BAD Zwave is needed... and if someone is willing to send me some hardware...

I think a capable programmer should only have to purchase equipment ONCE.
I can't afford purchasing zwave (and, honestly, can't rationalize it either)

:)
Dan

I'm interested in getting z-wave support.  I haven't set up a LMCE core or anything yet because I'm more interested in the home automation side of it, and there doesn't appear to be any controllers available that are supported (yet!)

One interesting tidbit:  Intermatic Home Settings has a $20 rebate for their products. http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?location=http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/00/00/00/96/58/84/96588490._V5170561_.pdf&token=957BBB0669152D76BE1C614537975585163C1748

Well, I just read more closely and it says you must have purchased before Dec. 31st.... nevermind!
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: bigbrother0074 on January 01, 2008, 11:17:53 am
I keep reading more and more, but I don't really feel like I know what I should be looking for.  I'm interested in the home automation part of LMCE (i like the rest, but that's just the most fascinating for me) but I don't know which standards I should be looking at.  I thought the wiki said z-wave was the only supported home automation standard, but it seems like development has stopped some time ago and there are no new usb controllers that are supported.  The wiki says not to use Insteon, but you say you've now added support for this.  But is this just the PLM/PLC support?  That's not RF, right?  I think I understand the differences between how PLM and RF networking works, but why would I choose one or the other (other than it being supported, of course)?

Sorry for all the questions, I am just feeling a little helpless and lost!
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on January 01, 2008, 11:43:24 am
I keep reading more and more, but I don't really feel like I know what I should be looking for.  I'm interested in the home automation part of LMCE (i like the rest, but that's just the most fascinating for me) but I don't know which standards I should be looking at.  I thought the wiki said z-wave was the only supported home automation standard, but it seems like development has stopped some time ago and there are no new usb controllers that are supported.  The wiki says not to use Insteon, but you say you've now added support for this.  But is this just the PLM/PLC support?  That's not RF, right?  I think I understand the differences between how PLM and RF networking works, but why would I choose one or the other (other than it being supported, of course)?

Sorry for all the questions, I am just feeling a little helpless and lost!

There's more and more HA support every day... EIB is supported, ZWave (I don't know which controller though), X10, and I'm just finishing up the Insteon support for PLM. 
Insteon is a DUAL MESH protocol - that means it's RF AND Powerline..
Normally, the RF side is used for remotes and Automatic Phase Coupling.. (Look up Access Points..)

The big situation IMHO is which protocols support BIDIRECTIONAL communication.  ZWave supports PIR sensor inputs only..
That's why insteon is such a hot topic, the driver I'm writing is FULLY bidirectional.. meaning, when you turn on a switch manually, the system will see that, and update it's status.

Another side effect of Insteon bidirectional support with the PLM is X10 bidirectional support since Insteon is backward compatible with X10, and can send/receive X10 signals.

HTH

Dan
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: PeteK on January 01, 2008, 06:28:22 pm
The big situation IMHO is which protocols support BIDIRECTIONAL communication.  ZWave supports PIR sensor inputs only..

HTH

Dan

[/quote]

This is not quite true.  I believe the Zwave patent limitation covers direct status reports based on local commands.  Z-wave is a fully bi-directional protocol.  The Z-wave implementation in LMCE does communicate to confirm message reception.  Status update is done via polling in a lot of applications (including LMCE, though that hasn't been fully implmented so far.

Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: MrNiceGuy on January 01, 2008, 11:54:12 pm
The current ZWave usb controllers are not supported. Actually its the USB chip that isn't supported under Linux. The leviton controller is a serial interface and could be supported easily but it needs someone who knows how to redirect the ZWave interface to look at the serial port (and deal with the PNP serial detection scripts).

Hmmm... well the ZCU201 seems to be supported but the driver needs to support the update z-wave firmware capabilities. We will hopefully have someone at Pluto looking at this in early Jan and also Dan I think is interested in z-wave too.

So in summary, are there no Z-Wave controllers that are both currently available and fully supported to your knowledge?
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on January 02, 2008, 12:40:04 am
Petek,

Yeah, I know Zwave is bidirectional, I was talking about the driver in lmce..

Even X10 is somewhat bidi.. I'm astonashed that MOST of the drivers aren't bidi..

ahh well, that too will come..

Regards,

Dan
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: totallymaxed on January 02, 2008, 01:09:17 am
The current ZWave usb controllers are not supported. Actually its the USB chip that isn't supported under Linux. The leviton controller is a serial interface and could be supported easily but it needs someone who knows how to redirect the ZWave interface to look at the serial port (and deal with the PNP serial detection scripts).

Hmmm... well the ZCU201 seems to be supported but the driver needs to support the update z-wave firmware capabilities. We will hopefully have someone at Pluto looking at this in early Jan and also Dan I think is interested in z-wave too.

The existing Z-wave driver will support the new ZCU201 with minor changes to the driver but has major limitations we hope to have a 2nd generation driver that does 2-way comms soon.

So in summary, are there no Z-Wave controllers that are both currently available and fully supported to your knowledge?

Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: bigbrother0074 on January 02, 2008, 03:05:04 am
so is the insteon communication 'platform' better than zwave because of the bi directionality? 



what about cost feasibility?  i just graduated (debt!) so cost is a pretty big factor...
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on January 02, 2008, 06:45:34 am
Both protocols are bidirectional.. it's just the drivers for lmce that support their bidirectional capabilities..

I'm a tech head, and one of the main reasons I went with Insteon was the devkit wasn't going to set me back $4000.

(also, I like the idea of being backward compatible with X10)

Cost factor?  I think their pretty equal.. zwave, you need to buy a controller to link the devices together.. then a interface...

Insteon links devices together by pressing set buttons on each device.. so you don't need a separate controller to link devices together.

I'm not sure of any cost difference between the two types of devices.. other than zwave needing an extra controller...

HTH

Dan
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: bigbrother0074 on January 02, 2008, 08:12:03 am
So how does the bidirectional stuff work?  I understand the concept as it relates to a thermostat:  if you change the temperature locally, the controller knows it (right?)  But what about a lamp?  If I hit the (local) switch on the lamp, the controller I guess knows it's off, but it can't turn it on again, right? 
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: bigbrother0074 on January 02, 2008, 08:32:57 am
I think I just have a few questions about HA (if you don't mind) regarding what I want to get from it, and what I should be looking for:


I really want to start simple at first, but eventually move to a full blown LMCE setup.  To begin, I'd like to control just a couple lights.  I want to be able to set timers so lights go on and off when my wife and I are away to discourage burglars and to have lights already be on when we come in after dark.  Eventually, this may expand into more of the realm of security (motion detection, cameras, and maybe even some sort of integration to a full home security system, etc.) motion sensors to turn off lights, thermostats to conserve energy, etc.

What hardware could I purchase now that I can fiddle around with on my Windows Vista PC that will eventually work with a LMCE setup?  Is the Insteon a safe bet?  Would I need to purchase software to use now that I wouldn't need once it's in a LMCE core?

Also, I'm moving this weekend to a new apartment, so I'm not 100% sure which modules I'll need.  I think the living room may have an electrical outlet controlled by a switch to plug a lamp into for the living room.  In that case, I'd need a dimmer switch module, right?  And for other outlets (not switch-controlled) I could do a wire-in outlet module...  And for an outdoor porch light or flood light, I would use a switch module...

Do you have any advice on where to start?
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on January 02, 2008, 10:54:05 am
So how does the bidirectional stuff work?  I understand the concept as it relates to a thermostat:  if you change the temperature locally, the controller knows it (right?)  But what about a lamp?  If I hit the (local) switch on the lamp, the controller I guess knows it's off, but it can't turn it on again, right? 

Actually, it CAN if it wants to...
anything you do remotely, (meaning using a switch to turn off/on, or dim) gets reported back to lmce.  This allows lmce to MONITOR the system as a whole..
It's not just for lighting...
An X10 Hawkeye PIR sensor and a X10 RF Transceiver are quite cheap, and can easily be implemented as a security device..  when it senses motion, it sends out an X10 signal.  The Insteon PLM interface (also sees X10) sees that signal and reports it to lmce.

HTH

Dan
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on January 02, 2008, 10:56:35 am
I think I just have a few questions about HA (if you don't mind) regarding what I want to get from it, and what I should be looking for:


I really want to start simple at first, but eventually move to a full blown LMCE setup.  To begin, I'd like to control just a couple lights.  I want to be able to set timers so lights go on and off when my wife and I are away to discourage burglars and to have lights already be on when we come in after dark.  Eventually, this may expand into more of the realm of security (motion detection, cameras, and maybe even some sort of integration to a full home security system, etc.) motion sensors to turn off lights, thermostats to conserve energy, etc.

What hardware could I purchase now that I can fiddle around with on my Windows Vista PC that will eventually work with a LMCE setup?  Is the Insteon a safe bet?  Would I need to purchase software to use now that I wouldn't need once it's in a LMCE core?

Also, I'm moving this weekend to a new apartment, so I'm not 100% sure which modules I'll need.  I think the living room may have an electrical outlet controlled by a switch to plug a lamp into for the living room.  In that case, I'd need a dimmer switch module, right?  And for other outlets (not switch-controlled) I could do a wire-in outlet module...  And for an outdoor porch light or flood light, I would use a switch module...

Do you have any advice on where to start?

Here, go to www.smarthome.com and take a look at exactly WHAT insteon is.

Regards,

Dan
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: Loki008 on January 02, 2008, 04:22:42 pm
Once I finish the Insteon, I will be ready to tackle a new project..
I don't have any zwave devices..
I'm not sure if the next project I tackle will be GSD/Zwave or starting to learn C++
I think C++ would help me more in the long run...
I guess it depends on how BAD Zwave is needed... and if someone is willing to send me some hardware...

I think a capable programmer should only have to purchase equipment ONCE.
I can't afford purchasing zwave (and, honestly, can't rationalize it either)

:)
Dan

A co-worker and myself are really looking forward to zwave support, so we would be willing to send you some hardware to do the development if that is something you would be willing to take on. Let me know what you would need.
Thanks
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on January 03, 2008, 02:26:28 am
I've dedicated to PLCBUS next.. and I do believe there is someone else currently working on better zwave support..
PLCBUS shouldn't take me too long though.. we'll see after that.

Regards,

Dan
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: bigbrother0074 on January 03, 2008, 03:37:57 pm
So how does the bidirectional stuff work?  I understand the concept as it relates to a thermostat:  if you change the temperature locally, the controller knows it (right?)  But what about a lamp?  If I hit the (local) switch on the lamp, the controller I guess knows it's off, but it can't turn it on again, right? 

Actually, it CAN if it wants to...
anything you do remotely, (meaning using a switch to turn off/on, or dim) gets reported back to lmce.  This allows lmce to MONITOR the system as a whole..
It's not just for lighting...
An X10 Hawkeye PIR sensor and a X10 RF Transceiver are quite cheap, and can easily be implemented as a security device..  when it senses motion, it sends out an X10 signal.  The Insteon PLM interface (also sees X10) sees that signal and reports it to lmce.

HTH

Dan

But if the power is cut to the lamp locally, how can the controller turn it back on?
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: Loki008 on January 03, 2008, 07:25:04 pm
So how does the bidirectional stuff work?  I understand the concept as it relates to a thermostat:  if you change the temperature locally, the controller knows it (right?)  But what about a lamp?  If I hit the (local) switch on the lamp, the controller I guess knows it's off, but it can't turn it on again, right? 

Actually, it CAN if it wants to...
anything you do remotely, (meaning using a switch to turn off/on, or dim) gets reported back to lmce.  This allows lmce to MONITOR the system as a whole..
It's not just for lighting...
An X10 Hawkeye PIR sensor and a X10 RF Transceiver are quite cheap, and can easily be implemented as a security device..  when it senses motion, it sends out an X10 signal.  The Insteon PLM interface (also sees X10) sees that signal and reports it to lmce.

HTH

Dan

But if the power is cut to the lamp locally, how can the controller turn it back on?

This is assuming that you used a wall switch to shut off power to the outlet the switch is plugged into.
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: bigbrother0074 on January 03, 2008, 07:49:08 pm
So how does the bidirectional stuff work?  I understand the concept as it relates to a thermostat:  if you change the temperature locally, the controller knows it (right?)  But what about a lamp?  If I hit the (local) switch on the lamp, the controller I guess knows it's off, but it can't turn it on again, right? 

Actually, it CAN if it wants to...
anything you do remotely, (meaning using a switch to turn off/on, or dim) gets reported back to lmce.  This allows lmce to MONITOR the system as a whole..
It's not just for lighting...
An X10 Hawkeye PIR sensor and a X10 RF Transceiver are quite cheap, and can easily be implemented as a security device..  when it senses motion, it sends out an X10 signal.  The Insteon PLM interface (also sees X10) sees that signal and reports it to lmce.

HTH

Dan

But if the power is cut to the lamp locally, how can the controller turn it back on?

This is assuming that you used a wall switch to shut off power to the outlet the switch is plugged into.
oh, okay.  that makes sense now.  the wall switch would have to be insteon too, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on January 03, 2008, 11:34:59 pm
Yes, the wall switch would be replaced with an Insteon switch.

Also, Insteon DOES support load sensing.. so, in theory, if say you have a table lamp, on an insteon switch, and the table lamp is ON...
if you turn the table lamp off (using it's switch), the Insteon switch SHOULD sense NO LOAD, and send an OFF command.

Now, if an ON command for this table lamp comes in.. the insteon switch should report NACK (or unable to process command due to no load)

This is all in theory, I haven't tested this functionality..

Regards,

Dan
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: 1audio on January 06, 2008, 07:51:30 am
First- use a plug in module for a table lamp. Wall switches should not be wired to outlets unless they are relays (its a fire hazard to plug in some loads to a dimmer).
Second use a plug in module for a table lamp. The good ones intercact well with the lamps switch and will turn themseves on when the lamp is turned on. the cheap ones leave you figuring out if the lamp is burned out, the switch is broken or you need to push the button on the module to get it to turn on. If the Insteon modules report back to the controller you could use that as an event to turn on the other lights in the room for example.
I know the Leviton ZWave modules do load sense. and the early Homepro modules do not. I don't know enough about Insteon, yet.
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: totallymaxed on January 06, 2008, 09:48:54 am
So how does the bidirectional stuff work?  I understand the concept as it relates to a thermostat:  if you change the temperature locally, the controller knows it (right?)  But what about a lamp?  If I hit the (local) switch on the lamp, the controller I guess knows it's off, but it can't turn it on again, right? 

If you switch the 'normal' switch on a table lamp to off then the z-wave can know there is no load on the z-wave appliance controller and therefore sense the light is 'off'. However z-wave cannot change the state of this physical switch to 'on'.

In a z-wave installation where we have installed z-wave enabled wall switches that replace the old mechanical switches (ie light switch next to the door of a room) then we have the ability to remotely change the state of that switch to 'on' or 'off' or to a 'level' and the system can get continuous state information from all the switches in the z-wave network as to there state and then this state can be reflected by LinuxMCE in the floor plan for example.

The same basic 'state' information can be fed back from PIR's, window open/close sensors, door open/close sensors, floor pressure sensors etc etc.
Title: Re: Insteon and ZWave compatable controlers
Post by: ddamron on January 06, 2008, 09:59:13 am
1audio,

Yeah, that's what I meant... my bad for using the word 'wall'..

and Yes, the plug in modules also support local ON/OFF and load sensing..(make sure you DON't get the ICON modules, they are low end clones..)