LinuxMCE Forums

General => Users => Topic started by: webpaul1 on September 10, 2007, 12:57:46 pm

Title: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: webpaul1 on September 10, 2007, 12:57:46 pm
There have been hundreds of status requests from Google Checkout for the DVD offered on linuxmce.org.  Since it's impractical to send individual responses I created this thread to report the latest status, and allow users to comment, or vent.  I am very, very sorry for the delays.  Here is what happened:

In early August I started offering a 9GB (dual-layer) DVD that has both the LinuxMCE installation disk, and the HD demo videos in multiple file formats.  These are not just recordable DVD-R's (DVD Duplication) that are burned one at a time because those recordable discs are not widely compatible, and don't work in all dvd players.  Rather I ordered professional replicated DVD's made from a glass master, like the commercial DVD movies and software distros, ordered in lots of 1,000.  I hadn't done this before, but was told I could just burn a recordable dual layer disc and send it to the replication plant.  I did this, but just before the estimated delivery date of August 30 they reported a problem because they said for a 9GB DVD (dual layer) they make 2 glass masters for a double-layer disc and I need to split the images in two.  It was frustrating that they didn't say this when the order was placed, but we worked this and got it going and then they gave me a revised delivery date of September 6.

I received the DVD's on September 6, however they don't work because some of the files on the DVD are corrupted.  It's not that the discs are unreadable, it's that some of the files have 0's (NULL's) in certain blocks.  The replication plant has now said "Yes, that's perfectly normal.  No glass master is perfect, there are always errors."  They insist that the fewest number of errors on any DVD master is >500.  I don't know anything about DVD replication procedures, and this may happen with movie DVD's.  Assuming that a few blocks are missing the movie would probably still play and just drop a frame.  But this obviously cannot happen with data dvd's.  You cannot have even 1 error.  If you're uncompressing an archive and even 1 bit is changed the checksum will fail and it won't work.  The replication plant insists that even the data DVD's from companies like Microsoft have hundreds of errors on them, and I'm insisting that's impossible.  The idiots at the plant are arguing the discs are not useless as I maintain because they're "99.9% accurate" and out of 9 billion bytes "there's only a couple hundred that are bad".  I did not check the references on the replication plant before placing the order because, it was my understanding there are only a dozen or so plants in the USA, and it costs millions to build a plant, so they all must be legit.  However upon more digging I'm finding out that's not really the case and some of the replication plants specialize in cheap movie DVD's for B-movies and porn and they make low-quality glass masters that have errors, and don't do data DVD's.

I've now found another replication plant that is telling me they do will guarantee their glass masters have zero errors.  However, like the first plant, they're quoting 2-3 weeks to turn around an order.  I'm going to send this new plant a master disc on Monday.

I am very sorry to all you who ordered the discs.  It's as frustrating to me as it is to you, particularly since the first plant charged thousands of dollars and I'm not sure I'll be able to get my money back even though all the discs are useless.  However, that's my problem and my lesson learned since I haven't done commercial dvd replication before.  If you can't wait and want your money back I totally understand and can't blame you.  If you can wait another 2-3 weeks, then thank you for your patience.  I assure you I'm not going to give up until I have the dvd is done right and they are sent out.  Once I get this first batch I'll have stock on hand, and the glass master will be kept for future production runs, so going forward I'll be able to send out new orders immediately as they're placed.  Sorry again...
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: stevanbt on September 10, 2007, 02:00:31 pm
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the update.  Sorry to hear that you've experienced problems getting the disks copied.  Speaking for myself, I appreciate the effort that you've made and am willing to pay for a second disk - I don't want to see you out of pocket because of problems at the copying plant.

Let me know if this is ok with you and how best to cancel my original order (without refunding my money) and placing a new order (which I'll pay for).

Thanks again for all your efforts, Steve.
Title: Havnt purchased one myself but feel for you.
Post by: elboy0712 on September 10, 2007, 02:23:13 pm
Sorry to hear about the unfortunate turn of events.
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: RalphP2 on September 10, 2007, 03:58:56 pm
Not a prob.  Let us know if we can kick some in to help offset the problem with the first DVD plant.

BTW - I think I've watched a few movies made from that first company ...   :o

RwP
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: martrw on September 10, 2007, 05:19:34 pm
I'd be happy to chip in to help lower the cost of the first learning experience.  Your efforts are appreciated.

Rob
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: themactep on September 10, 2007, 05:22:05 pm
Hi Paul, no problem with the delay. Let us know if we can help with the second disk. May be you should start a campaign on a site like http://www.chipin.com/ to fundraise both Linux MCE and the production. On the other hand you could place your order outside U.S. with possibly lower price. Have a look at http://www.disc.ru/price.htm (google-translated to english (http://google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.disc.ru%2Fprice.htm&langpair=ru%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8)), they are the best commercial CD/DVD manufacturer here in Russia, with 100% quality control.
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: webpaul1 on September 10, 2007, 06:23:35 pm
>>I'd be happy to chip in to help lower the cost of the first learning experience

Thanks for the offer, but don't worry.  I paid for the first production run with a credit card and so if the plant won't give me my money back I'll dispute the charge.  Considering that I have a master DVD which has readable files, and their production DVD's have different files, I'm assuming visa will give me my money back.

>>place your order outside U.S. with possibly lower price

Maybe I'll do that for the second batch.  Right now I'm really anxious to get a good batch of DVD's as fast as possible to fill the orders that have piled up.  Thanks for the tip, though.
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: wjcarpenter on September 10, 2007, 07:20:38 pm
From our "I don't really know what I'm talking about, but here goes" department ....

I was under the impression that CDs and DVDs had some redundancy in the recorded data.  So, you can get some scratches on the surface making some sectors unreadable, but the data can still be recovered from bits stashed around in different sectors.  With a lot of scratches (or if you're really unlucky) some data will be completely lost.  If you have a data CD or DVD that is having read problems, you'll hear the drive heads moving violently about.  I think it's seeking to the alternate sectors to reconstruct the data from the lost sector.

My suspicion is that the more complete version of what this vendor is telling you is:  "All glass masters have flaws, but luckily the redundancy still allows you to read 100% of the original data.  For a particular chunk of data to be completely unrecoverable (and look like 000's), the glass master must have *a lot* of flaws."  I further suspect that the plants which guarantee 100% readability are also counting on the disks being readable when the redundancy is taken into account.  They probably also see flaws in the glass masters but test 100% readability and toss the glass master if it doesn't pass.  A passing glass master might still contain flaws, but the data is 100% readable.

The net effect is the same, of course.  Thanks for your efforts and no problem about the delays.
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: enrique.lopez on September 10, 2007, 07:45:21 pm
Thank for your responsability. Sorry, i speak spanish.
Agradezco su compromiso, yo esperare a que tenga los nuevos DVD. Se pueden instalar en espaƱol?
Thanks.
Title: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: webpaul1 on September 28, 2007, 08:47:18 am
I found another plant shortly after my last post.  This one is ISO certified and seems to be much bigger and more professional.  As such they had strict rules about verifying the license and copyright for all the software on the disc to be sure I wasn't violating copyrights.  This delayed things a few more days as I had to detail every software package on the DVD.  That's done now, and I expect the DVD's in approx 1 week.
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: RDAC on September 28, 2007, 09:10:11 am
Oh good lord, that's just sad. My duplicator guarantees that they're all 100%, but they say that you have +/- 5% overage built in. Basically what happens is they overproduce to guarantee that you get a great batch.

I dealt with one firm out of NY that burned me bad on discs, never again. I found a great house in Dallas that's a one-step away from the main plant, and they do a great job for me.

If in the future you need some discs, I highly recommend Crystal Clear Disc & Tape. They even have expedited services available, but I think no matter what, you're always going to be looking at a few weeks turnaround.

It's sort of like a mechanic's shop, when you walk in the door you're at the mercy of the schedule. At certain times of year, it's hard to get a job in to the plants, as per they're being flooded with requests. This is especially true of the months before thanksgiving and Christmas.

Best of luck to you, and let me know when they're done. I'd love to get a big batch for Maker Faire, if that's possible.
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: sirdowny on October 03, 2007, 02:20:50 am
any updates as of late? 

Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: rikkiauluk on October 03, 2007, 11:35:18 am
To Webpaul and Team,

Please can you provide a leadtime on this now as per our last comments the DVD's would be here in approx 1 week or so........  Please advise as when you will be sending these out....

Or should we consider requesting our money back (please do not take this as a threat)

Thanks

Rikki
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: tschak909 on October 03, 2007, 03:54:22 pm
Dude, wait just a bit longer.

-Thom
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: mdarmistead on October 03, 2007, 05:24:44 pm
To Webpaul and Team,

Please can you provide a leadtime on this now as per our last comments the DVD's would be here in approx 1 week or so........  Please advise as when you will be sending these out....

Or should we consider requesting our money back (please do not take this as a threat)

Thanks

Rikki

Sept 28 to Oct 3 -- five days (which includes a weekend)
Lord, it's not even been a week yet. Chill out and be a little more patient.
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: webpaul1 on October 04, 2007, 06:03:16 am
***Finally*** they've arrived, and yes they work.  I shipped off the first 100 discs today.  The shipping is a bit slow since 75% of the orders are international and I have to fill out a customs form for each disc.  But they're on their way, and all 1,000 discs should be sent out over the next few days.  Very sorry again for the delays.  This was a real learning experience, but at least now I have lots of extra discs on hand and know exactly how to get discs replicated next time.
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: bostonnewbie on October 31, 2007, 10:24:20 pm
I just got my DVD and the install went fine.....
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: DavidS on January 08, 2008, 02:24:12 pm
Hi,

I placed an order on the 17th December 2007 for Linux MCE on DVD and was told the Discs were being Mastered and a copy would be sent out in a day or so. Since then although I have through numerous ways (Google Checkout, Email direct) tried to get an update I have received no feedback at all.

Can someone advise what is the current situation with the DVD?
If there are further problems with Production then I am happy to wait it's just not knowing what's going on that I find frustrating!

Regards,
Dave.
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: danielk on January 08, 2008, 04:48:09 pm
TheOldForge,

I don't have any of the discs myself or I would just drop one in the post for you. But please e-mail me privately at danielk@cuymedia.com and I'll make sure you get your DVD.

-- Daniel
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: DavidS on January 08, 2008, 07:21:06 pm
Thanks Daniel!
I have sent my deatils as requested.
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: mchapman on January 10, 2008, 03:07:52 pm
Hi Daniel,

Perhaps you could assist me as well? I placed an order back in December as well. I too received an email message indicating that the DVD's were due any day.

Thanks,

Mike
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: frodmda on January 12, 2008, 02:12:43 pm
To Webpaul and Team,

Please can you provide a leadtime on this now as per our last comments the DVD's would be here in approx 1 week or so........  Please advise as when you will be sending these out....

Or should we consider requesting our money back (please do not take this as a threat)

Thanks

Rikki


Rikki is cheap

LOL
Title: Re: Status of the LinuxMCE DVD's
Post by: danielk on January 13, 2008, 04:38:31 pm
Anyone who ordered and hasn't gotten their LinuxMCE 0704 DVD, please e-mail me at danielk@cuymedia.net