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General => Users => Topic started by: maverick0815 on July 29, 2014, 11:42:28 pm

Title: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: maverick0815 on July 29, 2014, 11:42:28 pm
I was wondering, since my current again receiver is getting long in the tooth, what I would buy as a replacement. I figure a ethernet-port would not be a bad idea.
So what do you guys think....got some suggestions?
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: posde on July 30, 2014, 01:50:31 am
Whenever I think AV receiver with regards to LinuxMCE, I think Denon.

Whether you want ethernet or not, is a personal preference thingie. If Ethernet is not needed, I would make sure to get RS232 for sure.
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: _if_ on July 30, 2014, 09:31:27 pm
Onkyo receivers work very smooth as well, and they have ethernet...
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: darkwizard864 on July 31, 2014, 12:33:23 am
pioneer does work well too
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: Esperanto on August 01, 2014, 01:03:07 pm
I wondered if it is possible to use the ethernet connection as multiple audio cards somehow? (so one can stream with squeeze to it and have a multi zone solution)
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: pigdog on August 01, 2014, 02:23:45 pm
Hi,

The internet connections are usually for listening to "their" default radio stations via URL like BBC, etc.

You can change them via editing URL to what you like, but as a multiple audio card? Then squeeze would have to have a URL or maybe IP address?.

Maybe some manufactures would allow an ip address instead of a URL.

You could only get up to 3 zones depending upon the receiver (2 channel stereo only) but if you want multi-zone go with a distributor.

Feed it your stereo source and distribute it.

Or, am I totally misunderstanding you?

(I did just off working 3 12 hours nights in a row).

Cheers.
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: maverick0815 on August 01, 2014, 11:07:23 pm
I would be most interested in control via Ethernet..
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: Esperanto on August 02, 2014, 10:45:38 am
Or, am I totally misunderstanding you?
Nope. thats what I was thinking off. In theory is very easy if you only need one ethernet cable and then can use that to control the device and distribute the audio. I thought that with 9.2 surround devices you can create 4 stereo and one mono channel (for toilet or whatever ;-) ). I tried analog as you suggested using usb but that is to limited in regards to distance. On locations where the amp is close to a core/md hdmi can be used but I want it a bit further away without the need to have a md turned on.

(I did just off working 3 12 hours nights in a row).
tough guy ;-)
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: pigdog on August 02, 2014, 03:51:26 pm
Hi,

A 9.2 receiver will only give you a total of 3 zones.

A 5.1 zone(#1) and 2 stereo zones.

You could make the 5.1 a stereo zone but you'd be wasting the 2 sub-woofers.

Normally you would use the 5.1 for home theatre, 1 stereo zone for the kitchen (hardwired speakers for instance) and another stereo zone.

Being cheap myself ($$$), I would have my home theatre zone and 1 two channel stereo zone.  (7.1)

I would take the stereo output to a audio distributor (mechnical) which would then be hard wired out to audio volume controls to the stereo speakers in the room or location.

The distributor could have X number of outputs on it (you could even use one of those wireless Rocketfish transmitter receivers off the distributor).

You could even get one of those newer app controlled audio distributors ($$$), but really, send the output from radio, cd player, MP3 device, etc to the cheaper mechanical device where you can manually turn on the audio areas.  Or leave them always on and control them via the audio volume controls.

LMCE still controls the receiver but you have to manually intervene on the distributor/volume control side.

I hope that my 2 cents helps (see I am cheap - should be at least 5 cents with inflation).

Cheers.
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: Esperanto on August 02, 2014, 09:48:42 pm
Hi,

A 9.2 receiver will only give you a total of 3 zones.

A 5.1 zone(#1) and 2 stereo zones.

You could make the 5.1 a stereo zone but you'd be wasting the 2 sub-woofers.

Normally you would use the 5.1 for home theatre, 1 stereo zone for the kitchen (hardwired speakers for instance) and another stereo zone.
With pulseaudio you can split that. I have split it on my 7.1 amp into 3 stereo zones and 1 mono in my study and the 7.1 amp in the living indeed in a 5.1 and a stereo zone.



Being cheap myself ($$$), I would have my home theatre zone and 1 two channel stereo zone.  (7.1)

I would take the stereo output to a audio distributor (mechnical) which would then be hard wired out to audio volume controls to the stereo speakers in the room or location.

The distributor could have X number of outputs on it (you could even use one of those wireless Rocketfish transmitter receivers off the distributor).

You could even get one of those newer app controlled audio distributors ($$$), but really, send the output from radio, cd player, MP3 device, etc to the cheaper mechanical device where you can manually turn on the audio areas.  Or leave them always on and control them via the audio volume controls.

LMCE still controls the receiver but you have to manually intervene on the distributor/volume control side.
Quite interesting. which audio distributer you advise (no wireless stuff).

I hope that my 2 cents helps (see I am cheap - should be at least 5 cents with inflation).
LOL
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: totallymaxed on August 11, 2014, 03:39:48 pm
Nope. thats what I was thinking off. In theory is very easy if you only need one ethernet cable and then can use that to control the device and distribute the audio. I thought that with 9.2 surround devices you can create 4 stereo and one mono channel (for toilet or whatever ;-) ). I tried analog as you suggested using usb but that is to limited in regards to distance. On locations where the amp is close to a core/md hdmi can be used but I want it a bit further away without the need to have a md turned on.
tough guy ;-)

The IP connection on a receiver is just that. Any IP based audio services the Receiver can access itself will output audio to any of the onboard audio outputs that can drive speakers - those audio outputs do not go via the RJ45 network connection.

all the best

Andy
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: Esperanto on August 13, 2014, 10:53:58 am
The IP connection on a receiver is just that. Any IP based audio services the Receiver can access itself will output audio to any of the onboard audio outputs that can drive speakers - those audio outputs do not go via the RJ45 network connection.

So some kind of streaming server with multichannels is required on the core? Or does something like that already exist? That software can then present itself as multiple output devices on the core (to which squeezeslave/lite can output) and then combine these outputs into one (multichannel) stream that is played by the receiver. Then on the receiver it gets played on the relevant channels since each channel is linked to a speaker.

Does that make sense?

Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: totallymaxed on August 13, 2014, 11:35:47 am
So some kind of streaming server with multichannels is required on the core? Or does something like that already exist? That software can then present itself as multiple output devices on the core (to which squeezeslave/lite can output) and then combine these outputs into one (multichannel) stream that is played by the receiver. Then on the receiver it gets played on the relevant channels since each channel is linked to a speaker.

Does that make sense?

...not quite.

You can run multiple Squeezeslaves on your Core. Each Squeezeslave will need to use a dedicated stereo sound output - these can be USB based or in a Expansion slot. You can also use multiple output soundcard, say a 5.1 card, and 'virtualise' it into 3x stereo cards. Once you have a Squeezeslave/Sound Card combo you can use that to play anything a real Squeezebox can play - simply connect its stereo audio output to an stereo audio input on an amplifier + speakers and you have a working mulit-channel sound capability.

All the best

Andy
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: posde on August 13, 2014, 12:04:51 pm
I assume, espergu wants to mux the output of multiple squeezeslaves on the core into a single digital stream that gets send out to the AV receiver over HDMI or TOSLINK, and wants the receiver to output the received data into the various output zones.
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: totallymaxed on August 13, 2014, 12:22:29 pm
I assume, espergu wants to mux the output of multiple squeezeslaves on the core into a single digital stream that gets send out to the AV receiver over HDMI or TOSLINK, and wants the receiver to output the received data into the various output zones.

Yep...I got that. But I'm not aware of anyone successfully implementing that...unless espergu plans to give it a try?
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: posde on August 13, 2014, 12:30:18 pm
Me neither. I guess one could get the mux part working, however, all receivers that I know, do not have the ability to define multiple zones from a single digital stream. You might be able to output sound to each of the speakers, but wont be able to change the volume using zone volume commands.
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: totallymaxed on August 13, 2014, 12:37:06 pm
Me neither. I guess one could get the mux part working, however, all receivers that I know, do not have the ability to define multiple zones from a single digital stream. You might be able to output sound to each of the speakers, but wont be able to change the volume using zone volume commands.

I've never seen a receiver that can define a multiple zones from a single stream either and yes volume control would be a problem too.
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: Esperanto on August 13, 2014, 12:49:00 pm
Is it a problem if the channels and volume are handled by the stream? When a zone is not active the audio for that channel in the stream is just silent although the receiver is on and playing the other channels.
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: posde on August 13, 2014, 12:56:49 pm
esperanto: Why don't you just try out what happens when you do this manually, ie. outside the LinuxMCE scope. And if you have success with it, detail what you've done.
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: Esperanto on August 13, 2014, 03:40:29 pm
esperanto: Why don't you just try out what happens when you do this manually, ie. outside the LinuxMCE scope. And if you have success with it, detail what you've done.

cause I don't have a receiver with ethernet yet (mine are still from the RS-232 age). However on my desktop I use a hdmi cable to my amp which has 7.1 and by selecting a virtual output on my desktop I can select which channel of the 7.1 is playing sound. So if an amp can stream 7.1 / 9.2 then the only question is what is the best way to stream that to the amp and to control and automate that. Starts to sound like a nice feature ;-).
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: Alblasco1702 on August 13, 2014, 04:32:22 pm
esperanto
Can you please explain this more as i read it you want to use one receiver for multiple areas at the same time and the audio came from a HDMI connection, and have splitted the audio for multiple zones trough the same HDMI cable?
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: totallymaxed on August 13, 2014, 04:59:16 pm
cause I don't have a receiver with ethernet yet (mine are still from the RS-232 age). However on my desktop I use a hdmi cable to my amp which has 7.1 and by selecting a virtual output on my desktop I can select which channel of the 7.1 is playing sound. So if an amp can stream 7.1 / 9.2 then the only question is what is the best way to stream that to the amp and to control and automate that. Starts to sound like a nice feature ;-).

The problem is that if you inject a 5.1 or 7.1 signal into your Amp over HDMI (or optical, Coax) you have no volume control over the individual channels that make up that signal.

Andy
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: Esperanto on August 13, 2014, 06:15:38 pm
esperanto
Can you please explain this more as i read it you want to use one receiver for multiple areas at the same time and the audio came from a HDMI connection, and have splitted the audio for multiple zones trough the same HDMI cable?
Correct
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: Esperanto on August 13, 2014, 06:17:18 pm
The problem is that if you inject a 5.1 or 7.1 signal into your Amp over HDMI (or optical, Coax) you have no volume control over the individual channels that make up that signal.

I am using pulseaudio. there you can make a virtual device for each channel and then control the volume of that channel. Off course then you not using the volume of the receiver (maybe with some smart calculation that can be linked together).
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: totallymaxed on August 13, 2014, 06:57:57 pm
I am using pulseaudio. there you can make a virtual device for each channel and then control the volume of that channel. Off course then you not using the volume of the receiver (maybe with some smart calculation that can be linked together).

...thats the point you can't control the Amp gain levels for discrete channels or pairs of channels especially as the Amp is receiving a 5.1/7.1 signal down the HDMI (I assume?)

Andy
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: Esperanto on August 14, 2014, 07:40:45 am
...thats the point you can't control the Amp gain levels for discrete channels or pairs of channels especially as the Amp is receiving a 5.1/7.1 signal down the HDMI (I assume?)

Isn't it possible to link the software volume control to the hardware volume control in a sense that when one of the software volume levels is at max level it will increase the hardware volume and decrease the software volume of the other (not being increase) channels so they stay at the same actual audible audio level?
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: RayBe on August 14, 2014, 08:59:19 am
re: thinking about a new av receiver,
If you want to integrate the receiver in the best possible way, make sure you choose a receiver with a well documented ip/rs232-protocol.
http://www.awe-europe.com/ir_232.html can be of help.
After this i would recommend using www to find some thrusted reviews.
In the end review them yourself by listening, ask your dealer to set some up.
Tip: the marantz line-up from 2013 gets great reviews, the control protocol is well documented (almost the same as the denon-protocol) and the can be bought with great discount atm.
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: totallymaxed on August 14, 2014, 01:51:19 pm
Isn't it possible to link the software volume control to the hardware volume control in a sense that when one of the software volume levels is at max level it will increase the hardware volume and decrease the software volume of the other (not being increase) channels so they stay at the same actual audible audio level?

I can't see that working to be honest. But even if it could be made to work the only advantage I can see is that all the signals are transmitted down a single cable. It seems a lot of complexity for no real gain.
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: Esperanto on August 15, 2014, 12:46:15 pm
I can't see that working to be honest. But even if it could be made to work the only advantage I can see is that all the signals are transmitted down a single cable. It seems a lot of complexity for no real gain.

Personally I am even happy with a fixed volume on the device and relative software volumes. To me it seems like a huge gain; one utp cable is everywhere (and for people who do not care about wifi disadvantages they even don't need one at all) and pulling tons of cables and possibly introducing additional (sound) hardware and diminished quality (you probably know the requirements for audio cables when used on longer distances) seems like a lot of trouble if it can be done with a bit of software. Of course that first needs to be made ;-). To bad I don't have an IP receiver otherwise I could test it a bit.
Title: Re: thinking about new av receiver
Post by: acald on August 15, 2014, 05:38:33 pm
Just a side point toward the original post.

there are a few out there now that will handle multiple hdmi out with audio to match. it just depends on how much you want to spend.  The onkyo 838 has two video zones and a third audio zone.

If you want wired whole house audio inexpensively and relatively easy to install, the channel vision a-bus system works well to give you audio in each room hanging off one of the zones on the receiver or a stereo output from linuxmce.  then you have a local volume control in each room.  you can't control the volume with the orbiters but it is very simple for just background music or jamming cleaning music (WAF)