LinuxMCE Forums
General => Users => Topic started by: purps on January 07, 2012, 02:26:26 pm
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I am seriously considering moving to freesat at my new place (I'm in the UK).
1. Does freesat still have multiplexes like with freeview? If so, how many? Can one tuner handle all the viewing/recording of all the channels on a given multiplex? (I will be using myth).
2. What DVB-S2 card is best to use? I am currently on 1004, will be using myth, don't mind if it's PCI or PCIe. Less keen on USB, but fine with it if it's known to be working.
3. Once I understand the above, the next question is how many tuners, and how does that impact which dish I choose? Currently I use 4 tuners for freeview, but I think I could probably get away with 2, I record so much crap that I never ever watch.
Cheers,
Matt.
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I am seriously considering moving to freesat at my new place (I'm in the UK).
1. Does freesat still have multiplexes like with freeview? If so, how many? Can one tuner handle all the viewing/recording of all the channels on a given multiplex? (I will be using myth).
2. What DVB-S2 card is best to use? I am currently on 1004, will be using myth, don't mind if it's PCI or PCIe. Less keen on USB, but fine with it if it's known to be working.
3. Once I understand the above, the next question is how many tuners, and how does that impact which dish I choose? Currently I use 4 tuners for freeview, but I think I could probably get away with 2, I record so much crap that I never ever watch.
Cheers,
Matt.
Hi Matt,
1. Yes multiplexes similar to DVB-T. The number of frequencies (called "transponders" in sat lingo) are much higher though. One tuner can provide the full stream to Myth, that can then record whichever MUX needed, including several.
Please look at http://www.lyngsat.com/28east.html or http://en.kingofsat.net/pos-28.2E.php
There you can see the transponders, and the channels on each. Most carry 6-10 free channels, but some are probably not interesting to record simultaneously - like Channel 5 region 1, 3, 4, and 5
2. Can not really guide you there, since I am using virtual Core (actually 8.10), thus my tuners are USB - and a struggle on 8.10, meaning I will be upgrading to 10.04 where they should work fine. Just ensure you buy DVB-S2 tuners, where both DVB-S and DVB-S2 is supported in 10.04. (bet 10 beers that Andrew http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?action=profile;u=38882 can tell you, although 10.10 could vary in HW support compared to 10.04)
3. Like I mentioned above, you would need more tuners for sat... The dish can be whatever, but the microwave head (the LNB) need to be for enough tuners. I would recommend a "quad" LNB (not a Quattro, since these requires a special switch), or if you are ambitious an "Octo" LNB for 4 resp. 8 tuners. The price between single, dual and quad LNBs are very small... And I am quite sure you can find PCI(e) cards with 2 tuners quite cheap.
If you want premium channels (SKY) then this is also possible (and legal), but policies here states that this should not be discussed - I actually disagree with these policies, but can easily understand them, since the step to implement viewing paid TV legally is actually a (very small) bit more complicated then the steps needed to watch the same channels illegally...
You could also consider a slightly larger dish, with 2 (or more) heads (LNBs) for receiving many channels from across the continent - I personally scored tremendous with the wife when I tuned to "Abu Dhabi Sports" to find live broadcast from World Championships in endurance horse riding (which is her passion, mine is sat tv ;-) that wasn't aired in any "normal" tv station..
-TOP
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Hello toppot,
thanks for your detailed explanation. I'd like to add/change one thing though: I would suggest to DO get a Quattro LNB and add a Multiswitch to it. That way, you can easily add more DVB-S2 receivers as you go along. Just get a bigger multiswitch.
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I agree with Posde. Make sure it's a Quattro and not a Quad. Quattro has 4 outputs horizontal low and high, vertical low and high. Connect that to a multiswitch and any receiver can watch anything from that satellite, don't need anymore LNBs. What's also nice is that you can add an antenna feed into the multiswitch so you have just one cable carrying the DVB-T and DVB-S (which then you have to split/filter to each receiver).
As for having several LNBs (including several Quattro's if you want more than one satellite) you can get a curved dish. I have a Wavefrontier T90 (it looks strange as the beam bounces twice, and I think therefore is mirrored) but I'm sure there are other products.
I had this all working with 8.10 but when I installed 10.04 over it I forgot how to configure it all in MythTV. I'm quite the amateur :P But I'll try to do a nice write-up once I figure it all out again (for others and myself next time I install!)
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Thank you for the replies gentlemen, very helpful indeed.
1. OK, so I understand now that there even more MUXs to contend with when dealing with satellite.
2. Hopefully Andrew will stumble across this thread and let me know his opinion on cards.
3. I appreciate the advantage of a quattro/multiswitch approach. However, am I right in saying that the little oval sky minidish (which I intend on thieving from my current abode) isn't suitable for this? You need a circular one? Plus, will you not see additional losses by running the signal through another box? My motherboard only has x2 PCI slots and x2 PCIe slots available, so I'm assuming I can only install a maximum x4 dual tuners in my core; I would have thought I'd be safe with an OCTO, unless there's something I'm missing?
I will never have DVB-T at the new place as it will be a PITA (I noticed that all the aerials are on very tall masts, and there isn't one currently on the property), and I have no interest in sky or any paid services. I watch too much tele as it is :-)
Cheers,
Matt.
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Multiswitch has nothing to do with dish format. A quad LNB has a multiswitch built in, afaik, compared to the quattro, which provides the feeds to the external multiswitch, as Schmich pointed out.
I am using, with 1004, and not out of the box, 2x Dual DVB-S2 cards with a PCIx1 connector. Unfortunately, my stupid dish installer installed a single LNB to point to the Astra 28.2, and a quattro only to Astra 19.2. So the 19.2 goes into the multiswitch, the single LNB to 28.2 goes directly into one of the four DVB-S2 connectors.
PCIx1 fits into PCIx1,x2,x4,x8 or x16.
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My understanding was that the quattro LNB itself didn't like the little oval sky minidishes. This is all very new to me, but I wouldn't have thought that a quad/octo LNB would need a multiswitch? I thought they were literally just separate, individual feeds?
I am going to attempt to install a new LNB in my existing dish. Unfortunately, as I'm moving house, I will have to realign it; hopefully that won't be beyond my abilities.
Currently looking at this one, there are Linux drivers are available and reports of success with myth .24 http://www.tbsdtv.com/english/product/6981.html
Open to any other suggestions!
Cheers,
Matt.
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If you get one, make sure to get a return policy.
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Really? That bad?
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Hello toppot,
thanks for your detailed explanation. I'd like to add/change one thing though: I would suggest to DO get a Quattro LNB and add a Multiswitch to it. That way, you can easily add more DVB-S2 receivers as you go along. Just get a bigger multiswitch.
For a future proof system you are of course right - you can actually actually cascade multiswitches, meaning adding switches rather than replacing.. But for a sat newbie lets keep the learning curve a bit flatter :P - Even if Matt actually seems (from other problems he has solved via the forum) to be quite a good learner..
-TOP
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Really? That bad?
It is not about that bad, it is about driver support. Sometime the same device receives a new chip which renders the original working driver useless.
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My understanding was that the quattro LNB itself didn't like the little oval sky minidishes. This is all very new to me, but I wouldn't have thought that a quad/octo LNB would need a multiswitch? I thought they were literally just separate, individual feeds?
I am going to attempt to install a new LNB in my existing dish. Unfortunately, as I'm moving house, I will have to realign it; hopefully that won't be beyond my abilities.
Cheers,
Matt.
You are spot on that a single/dual/quad/octo LNB can be fed directly in to the tuner without a switch!.... And works fine with any dish type.
BUT: Switching is being done none the less. The LNB has a smaller frequency span than the feed it is tuning to, hence the tuner can make the LNB switch between base tuning frequencies (via 22Khz signal: LO 9.75 GHz, HI 10.6 Ghz). For most of the feeds in Europe it is actually also necessary to select the polarization of the sat feed, i.e. horizontal or vertical (elsewhere there is also right and left handed circular and other ways), meaning another "switching" done by the tuner via selecting either 13 or 18 Volts to the LNB.
That is why all relevant LNBs are called "universal LNBs"
External switches comes in to play when you desire more than one sat "position" - DiSEqC switches that select between LNBs, or if you uses Quattro LNBs (one multiswitch per Quattro LNB in principle) that then transform the selection from the tuner (HI/LO and H/V) to just one of the 4 (not so universal) LNBs all sitting in the same casing - called a Quattro LNB.
I stand by my recommendation: If you just want Freesat buy a quad or octo LNB. Feed just one cable directly to a sat box. Align the dish to 28.2 East. Now put the cable in to a input on a PC tuner card, and get that working. Later add more cables from LNB to tuner inputs.
Regarding aligning the dish - see this link: http://www.dishpointer.com/
-TOP
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Multiswitch has nothing to do with dish format. A quad LNB has a multiswitch built in, afaik, compared to the quattro, which provides the feeds to the external multiswitch, as Schmich pointed out.
I am using, with 1004, and not out of the box, 2x Dual DVB-S2 cards with a PCIx1 connector.
What was not OOB? What cards?
Unfortunately, my stupid dish installer installed a single LNB to point to the Astra 28.2, and a quattro only to Astra 19.2. So the 19.2 goes into the multiswitch, the single LNB to 28.2 goes directly into one of the four DVB-S2 connectors.
Why not spend the 3 minutes to revert this?? And then tweek Myth to use 3 tuners for 28.2 and only 1 for 19.2??
-TOP
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toppot,
I prefer the 19.2 astra ;) and MythTV will not be seen in this house hold outside of a lab install.
It is okay, it was just stupid by the installer. I rarely need more than my three 19.2 lines, but it would have made life a bit nicer to have only a 9.8 multiswitch and have the cables go from LNB to multiswitch, and multiswitch to receiver cards, instead of having to have a special setup for the 28.2 cable which goes directly into one input. I now need to make sure that the cards are loaded in the correct order. Doable, but not nice.
As for OOB, the Dual DVB-S2 card does not work out of the box with the kernel that comes with 1004. I needed the ngene driver set from the linuxtv mercurial repo. And I can't remember which one was the right one. Alzheimer disease, I guess :/
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For a future proof system you are of course right - you can actually actually cascade multiswitches, meaning adding switches rather than replacing.. But for a sat newbie lets keep the learning curve a bit flatter :P - Even if Matt actually seems (from other problems he has solved via the forum) to be quite a good learner..
Thank you for your judgement of my skill and learning abilities, having read a few of my other posts. I am not interested in the "easy" solution; I am interested in the "best" solution, even if it happens to be the hardest to understand for my tiny, inferior brain.
It is not about that bad, it is about driver support. Sometime the same device receives a new chip which renders the original working driver useless.
OK I will bear that in mind. I haven't read anything about this, but will keep an eye out.
External switches comes in to play when you desire more than one sat "position" - DiSEqC switches that select between LNBs, or if you uses Quattro LNBs (one multiswitch per Quattro LNB in principle) that then transform the selection from the tuner (HI/LO and H/V) to just one of the 4 (not so universal) LNBs all sitting in the same casing - called a Quattro LNB.
I stand by my recommendation: If you just want Freesat buy a quad or octo LNB. Feed just one cable directly to a sat box. Align the dish to 28.2 East. Now put the cable in to a input on a PC tuner card, and get that working. Later add more cables from LNB to tuner inputs.
Regarding aligning the dish - see this link: http://www.dishpointer.com/
I don't want the fact that I am using a sky minidish to become the main factor in all of this - if using a quattro/multiswitch is the superior solution in terms of quality, dropouts, whatever, then I would be happy to buy a new dish as well. I will only ever be looking at Astra 2D et al, which is all the freesat channels right? That's all I am interested in. From what I have read, the quattro/multiswitch approach is for people who want more than 8 tuners (i.e. in flats, apartment blocks, etc)... unless I am missing a subtle reason as to why it would be better?
Thanks for the dish pointer link, although my concern was specifically centred around "fine-tuning". Whilst I am sure I would be able to get the dish pointed more or less roughly in the right direction, I wasn't sure how to get it spot-bollock. Is it a simple case of plugging a feed into an old sky box or similar, looking at the signal strength, and saying "up a bit, left a bit"?
Cheers for all the help so far everybody, I have found it most useful,
Matt.
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It's not all too hard, at least not for us techys. I didn't know anything about satellites and went directly to having 2 Quattros and an antenna connected to a multi-switch with 9 TVs attached (we rent out apartments if you wonder why 9 TVs).
The annoying part is setting it up in MythTV though (I have no idea with VDR), especially if you're an amateur like me who plays around with trial and error. Any longer test with multiple options of sequences because a huge time-sink. And then you have smaller issues like the screensaver popping over MythTV as it searches for channels and when you come back you can't complete the channel search/insertion. You either have to disable the screensaver or touch the mouse/keyboard every few minutes as it searches.
I'll try to tackle how to configure it all in the coming days.
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I have found this web site to be a life-saver when dealing with myth http://parker1.co.uk/mythtv_ubuntu.php
And, of course, he has a section for freesat http://parker1.co.uk/mythtv_freesat.php
Cheers,
Matt.
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I have found NOT using MythTV to be a life saver ;)
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Ah nice. That looks really familiar! I bet that's what I used last time on 8.10.
I might try VDR if I get the time. I know it has been discussed quite a few times, but things evolve! In very short, what's the main reason(s) to go for VDR instead of MythTV today?
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Ah nice. That looks really familiar! I bet that's what I used last time on 8.10.
I might try VDR if I get the time. I know it has been discussed quite a few times, but things evolve! In very short, what's the main reason(s) to go for VDR instead of MythTV today?
Today, I fear very little for 2 reasons:
1. The main reason why VDR was used back in the days was that DVB integration in Myth was not very good. This is not the case anymore :-)
2. It appears that most work to integrate TV in to the GUI is in the hands of Thom, and he is integrating Myth exclusively - hence I see VDR being sidelined even more in the future.
- and as a third argument, I believe Myth is better at supporting distributed tuners (at MDs) than VDR. Some could prove me wrong here.
I could be very wrong, and would invite others to comment here. Especially Posde...
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toppot,
you are correct on 2 and three atm. But I've given each new MythTV release a chance, and always had way worse artefacts / restarts than with VDR. I do not know, how long it will take to give VDR the same kind of loving and caring within LinuxMCE, but eventually, it will be. And the biggest advantage of VDR is, that it is WAY slimmer than MythTV.
VDR is very much a manual setup atm with LinuxMCE, but that is fine with me, as the end result is what counts for me.
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I had VDR running on my core many moons ago on an 810 alpha I think it was, but never got it going on the MDs, just couldn't work it out. But from what I saw, it was very lightweight and fast, which is the whole point I guess.
It is true that myth craps out constantly and does random poop all the time.
Is setting up VDR any easier now? Or is still not for the faint-hearted? Not even sure why I'm asking, considering all the myth features that I use, I guess I am forced to use myth :)
Cheers,
Matt.
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The setup process hasn't changed from 810.
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Hi Guys
I have been doing a bit with MythTV on UK Freesat on 10.04 recently and am about to start running a full test setup.
This will include a hybrib and 3 md's to start.
On the side of the Tuner card I suggest the following.
http://www.tbsdtv.com/english/product/6984.html
It is the same manufacturer you posted earlier but is a 4 tuner PCIe DVB-S2 card which works quite nicely.
It is not out of the box but was quite easy once I figured it out.
I have step by step directions which I will post up on wiki when I get chance. If you would like a copy of the text notes I would be happy to send them to you.
Regards
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Why don't you write-up a small wiki article about it?!
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Hi Posde
I intend to. I just need to clean it up a bit and I will, hopefully in next few weeks.
Regards
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Fibres, you wouldn't happen to use a Quattro LNB combined with a multiswitch? :P I just can't get it to work even tough (after a lot of trial and error) I did manage back on 8.10. Like an idiot I never wrote it down how I did it.
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Fibres, you wouldn't happen to use a Quattro LNB combined with a multiswitch? :P I just can't get it to work even tough (after a lot of trial and error) I did manage back on 8.10. Like an idiot I never wrote it down how I did it.
Did you try this stuff? http://parker1.co.uk/mythtv_freesat.php
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On the side of the Tuner card I suggest the following.
http://www.tbsdtv.com/english/product/6984.html
It is the same manufacturer you posted earlier but is a 4 tuner PCIe DVB-S2 card which works quite nicely.
I did happen to see that one, but the thought of 4 tuners on one PCI slot worried me a bit! I would be interested to know what the stability is like with all 4 tuners banging away simultaneously on recordings or live TV.
Also when you see cards advertised as DVB-S2 and DVB-S, does that mean every port is capable of either, or do half the ports to S2, and the other half just do S?
Cheers,
Matt.
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Hi Schmich & Matt
Firstly no I dont use with a Quattro and multiswitch. But from what I know that shouldnt make any difference to your setup as a multi switch simply gives you lots of outputs.
As for the stability I will let you know when I got it all connected up fully in next few weeks. I only have 2 sat feeds to my living room where the test box is located. I am planning on going into production and relocating the core to the attic where I will run 4 x feeds and let you know what the stability is like. I suspect as I am putting MD's in all 3 kids rooms that all tuners might be in use quickly on livetv!!
Regards
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Firstly no I dont use with a Quattro and multiswitch. But from what I know that shouldnt make any difference to your setup as a multi switch simply gives you lots of outputs.
It's the DISEqC that needs to be configured differently. I'm gonna try to make another card tomorrow and if that doesn't work I'll start a new thread not to pollute this one. Gl with your setup!
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Fibres, you wouldn't happen to use a Quattro LNB combined with a multiswitch? :P I just can't get it to work even tough (after a lot of trial and error) I did manage back on 8.10. Like an idiot I never wrote it down how I did it.
Not to be a grumpy old man Schmich, but when I suggested to Matt that he, for the sake of simplicity and flattening the learning curve, should just buy Quad or Octo LNB you where the first one to shoot at me for suggesting such foolishness...
Can we, as a closure on this thread conclude that:
a. You need to learn a bit more sat basics before speaking as an expert ;-)
b. Matt should keep it simple
c. Quattro LNBs is the scalable solution, but for a novice going simple is the key to success.
And to answer your question, if your DISEqC control is working (from Myth or whatever), and your multiswitch is not defect, AND everything is connected properly (easier to mistake than you might imagine) - then it WILL work. May I suggest than you run through you physical installation once again. If the same install is working for all users with regular sat boxes, then there's only 2 options. Either a faulty port in the switch (easily tested with a working sat box normally attached to another port), or incorrect DISEqC settings in Myth. Please be aware of the distinction between committed and uncommitted switches!
Would be glad to help if still needed :-)
-Tony
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I have re-read the whole thread because I got confused as I never took a shot at anyone. I'm sorry if did seem that I did.Your very first post I just skimmed through because it was basics and you seemed to know what you were talking about. Then I read Posde's reply and saw the recommendation of a Multiswitch combined with a Quattro. I immediately though "oh I have that and I'm super happy with it! I'll give a thumbs up for this setup". It's not every day where I'm not the one asking questions. The reason why I mentioned getting a Quattro and Quad was because that was one thing that got me confused at the very start. Quad and Quattro sound very similar so if you don't pay attention you can end up buying the wrong one. Or what I did in the very beginning assumed they were the same thing (just like you can call a motherboard a mainboard). All guides assume from the start that you know the difference. Do note that I tried explaining the difference, I didn't say Quads are bad. I hadn't even read that you recommended a Quad.
I never tried to talk like an expert. I have let OP know that I'm an amateur twice and as well as an idiot. All I did was to share my experience and given recommendation based upon that.
I'm quite the amateur
if you're an amateur like me
Like an idiot I
Yes I am having issues with my Quattro + Multiswitch setup but, as I stated. It's the MythTV part that's tricky not the rest.
The annoying part is setting it up in MythTV though
The 7 TVs that are out of my LinuxMCE system, with normal receivers, work flawlessly. If you have problems setting it up why are you recommending it?
I put all the cards on the table. I did say that MythTV is tricky. BUT not impossible for a beginner like if you have to compile your own drivers. It's just one page of MythTV's setup that just seems to be above me: the DISEqC page or whatever it's called. Where you have to specify if there's a DISEqC switch, how many ports, or a Tone Switch or LNBs etc. At least I think that's what's wrong. I have tried so many things (some that seemed logical to me) with that page that I did go back to see if the issue is somewhere else. I have
I checked the cable by using a standard box and it gets the image. I have tried with another card (I have 2x Hauppauge HVR-4000) but no luck there. It doesn't help that I'm not sure what I should put in the configuration I mentioned above so for each card I have to get my trial and error going. But maybe it's the card that doesn't like 10.04, or just my stupidity. The 4000 has always caused a bit of problems. The DVB-T part of the cards doesn't work for example. I have another DVB-T only card that gets channels no problem but the 4000 doesn't want to cooperate. Do keep in mind that if it's the card then it wouldn't matter if I have a Quad ;D
For some reason there just isn't any guide on the net on how to configure that DISEqC page. There's one guide for a mulitswitch but the guy doesn't use quattros and it doesn't help to understand the logics of the configuration when he has to use a "hack" as he calls it: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MultiLNB_Switch_Setup I will open up a new thread to not spam this thread with my problems even more.
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Not to be a grumpy old man Schmich,
Well I managed to come out that way fine...
Hope there's no hard feelings - we all try to help each other, and one thing sure: Your intentions where as good as mine :-)
Hope to solve this issue, which can be followed in the other thread:
http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php/topic,12308.msg86784.html
-Tony
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I'm sorry, it's precisely that: I don't want to seem like I attack anyone. There are enough wars on this forum ^^
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Fibres, any news on your FreeSat setup? You are using a quad right?
My house move is complete, we have been in for a month now, have nearly finished sorting burst heating pipes and dodgy electrics, so starting to think about the FreeSat setup once again :-)
I did not bring the oval Sky minidish with me, so that is no longer a factor; I will be buying a new dish.
Cheers,
Matt.
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Thank you for the replies gentlemen, very helpful indeed.
1. OK, so I understand now that there even more MUXs to contend with when dealing with satellite.
2. Hopefully Andrew will stumble across this thread and let me know his opinion on cards.
3. I appreciate the advantage of a quattro/multiswitch approach. However, am I right in saying that the little oval sky minidish (which I intend on thieving from my current abode) isn't suitable for this? You need a circular one? Plus, will you not see additional losses by running the signal through another box? My motherboard only has x2 PCI slots and x2 PCIe slots available, so I'm assuming I can only install a maximum x4 dual tuners in my core; I would have thought I'd be safe with an OCTO, unless there's something I'm missing?
I will never have DVB-T at the new place as it will be a PITA (I noticed that all the aerials are on very tall masts, and there isn't one currently on the property), and I have no interest in sky or any paid services. I watch too much tele as it is :-)
Cheers,
Matt.
The DVB S2 cards supported are the ones supported by the Ubuntu version - simple as that. Generally speaking you can assume that 10.04 will support fewer cards 'out of the box' than 10.10 and that 11.10 will support more cards than any previous release. A good place to look for information about which S2 tuners/cards have Linux support is here;
http://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/DVB-S2_PCIe_Cards (http://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/DVB-S2_PCIe_Cards)
We currently use the http://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/DVBWorld_DVB-S2_PCIE2005 (http://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/DVBWorld_DVB-S2_PCIE2005) card in our hardware products that have on-board DVB's.
All the best
Andrew