LinuxMCE Forums

General => Users => Topic started by: frustrated on August 21, 2011, 02:01:19 am

Title: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: frustrated on August 21, 2011, 02:01:19 am
I know this is free software and you all put in a lot of time, BUT...

You really should warn people that this is very unstable, inconsistent, and difficult software BEFORE they waste time downloading and installing this LinuxMCE.

There are some really wonderful things in LinuxMCE that I would love to use, but can’t even get the installation/AVwizard to complete consistently without errors.  I have wasted untold number of hours doing repeated installations following severely out of date Wiki instructions.  I have had inconsistent results doing the exact same install.  How can that be?

I know that my post will almost certainly be deleted.  I hope you read all the way through before doing so.

I have read through the forums and found people who have had the same issues that I have had, and on many, no one has responded with help.  I guess that poor sole gave up like I'm doing too.  I have read the Wiki entries which are so far out of date, it's laughable.  I read where someone is seeking help and some other moron suggests that they use the 10.04 – which is even more unstable than 8.04 and isn’t even available on the download page.  What is it with this stuff?

There are multiple 8.04 versions to install, but you have to dig through forum posts to know which one to install.  Install the wrong one and you waste even more time!  Couldn’t the download page just say which one is stable?  Is it really that complex?

The software hangs at different points especially background tasks during the AVWizard.  Speaking of the AVWizard, why on earth do the background tasks display their status right on top of the AVWizard?  Do you know how difficult it is to read the top of the page?

Why can’t the AVWizard just be something the user clicks on (same with the Admin interface?)  Why do they have to be background started processes?  After you get Ubuntu installed, you have to click (or incorrectly double-click as the install Wiki pages tells you) on the LinuxMCE icon (why isn’t it called LinuxMCE Install which would be more obvious.)

It’s pretty obvious to me that when you are doing builds, no one is actually following a checklist which includes following the installation instructions to make sure they still are correct.  I’m sure that most of you are so deep into LinuxMCE that you never follow any of the Wiki.  Why aren’t there installation instructions on the download page?

Why do you have to make this so difficult?  My God, I have never, ever seen such out of date stuff in my life.  8.04 isn’t even released and Ubuntu 8.04 is so far out of support.  Why even release 8.04?  Put all of your energy into 10.04!

I would really love to help, but I fear that I would waste even more time out of my life and still not get anywhere.  I have past UNIX/Linux experience, but I pity the poor fool who has none as still struggles through to a fruitless end!

I love it when someone has a question and someone else points them to user Wiki pages to see who else uses a particular piece of hardware.  You can tell these other folks must have given up because their installation Wiki pages haven’t been changed in 5 years.

I’m really trying to not be as critical as I feel I should.  You are all so proud and put out suspicious videos on YouTube showing how easy it is to install.  IT’S NOT!  Anytime anyone dares to make a critical suggestion, they get dumped on – “did you pay anything for this?”  Of course not, we all know that if someone actually put out good money for this, there would be a lawsuit for sure using the YouTube videos of evidence of fraud.

I understand that with all of the complexities coupled with lots of types of hardware, it makes it very difficult.  You really should tell people to forget using any advanced video card, just stick with VGA until you get it all working.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: golgoj4 on August 21, 2011, 02:35:34 am
Let me reply.

FUCK YOU!!! I strenuously object to that statement! Clearly, this isnt for you. There is so much misinformation in your post im ok with such a simplistic response. Seriously, yet another crybaby who thinks we work for him. Fraud? Rofl. You are truly clueless.  

Thanks, and I hope you have a nice day. Well, not really. :)

-langston ball aka 'head of the irrational responses dept'.

Also, I hope your post is stickied as a testament to your ignorance.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: golgoj4 on August 21, 2011, 02:46:07 am
http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php/topic,11552.msg80363.html#msg80363


That thread is an example of users coming together to try and solved a perceived deficiency, not crying about it. So yeah, my initial response (which I stand by) is harsh, but zomg it aint hard to chip in some documentation is it now??!?!? Its a two way street and frankly your experience means nothing if its not going to be leveraged in an intelligent manner. OMG, why do you make this so difficult? is not such a manner. PM me an address to send a clue to.

Good Day Sir.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: frustrated on August 21, 2011, 03:12:35 am
Let me reply.

FUCK YOU!!! Clearly, this isnt for you. There is so much misinformation in your post im ok with such a simplistic response. Seriously, yet another crybaby who thinks we work for him. Fraud? Rofl. You are truly clueless. 

Thanks, and I hope you have a nice day. Well, not really. :)

-langston ball aka 'head of the irrational responses dept'.

Also, I hope your post is stickied as a testament to your ignorance.

Your response is beyond the caliber I expected.  "Yet another crybaby" is a telling phrase that you should reexamine!  If there are this many "crybabies," maybe you're doing something wrong just as I suspected.

Your use of foul language in this situation shows your character too well!  I was civil, can't you be as well?  You’re not a very good representation of the other fine people who I know work hard.

I know that my post was born out of frustration and wasn’t as coherent as I might want, but it is clear that you didn’t take anything positive away from what I had to say.  You have to admit, in every complaint a person hears, there is a bit of useful information that can make a process/product/service better.  I’m sorry you couldn’t see that.

Again, I would like to participate to make the solution better, but with a mouth like your’s, who wants to?  You certainly shouldn’t be in the Marketing Department!

And, I do NOT think you work for me!  Thank God for that!
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: B34N on August 21, 2011, 03:27:23 am
There are some really wonderful things in LinuxMCE that I would love to use, but can’t even get the installation/AVwizard to complete consistently without errors.  I have wasted untold number of hours doing repeated installations following severely out of date Wiki instructions.

I'm a complete beginner. What are you trying to install on? Are you using supported equipment? I did my test installation on an old scrap PC that I had laying around. It got through the installation but I didn't have any hardware to do anything interesting with it. Next I bought a bare-bones system from a reputable supporter of LMCE (http://lmcecompatible.com/) and everything that they provided me with works perfectly. The only thing that doesn't work is the linux unsupported tuner card that I bought on my own (for a "good" price), even though many suggested a different model. Even with that bad purchase decision I still had many people put a lot of their time trying to support me. When I mentioned that the Wiki wasn't up to date, they suggested that I update it. I stated doing that and now I'm actually beginning to help the project (albeit in my very limited way) rather than just be a person that demands time and attention from those who are very tired of answering the same questions over and over again. I feel your pain but I think that your energies would be better used helping correct the issues with the Wiki rather than just complain about it in the forums.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: golgoj4 on August 21, 2011, 03:38:05 am
Your response is beyond the caliber I expected.  "Yet another crybaby" is a telling phrase that you should reexamine!  If there are this many "crybabies," maybe you're doing something wrong just as I suspected.

Your use of foul language in this situation shows your character too well!  I was civil, can't you be as well?  You’re not a very good representation of the other fine people who I know work hard.

I know that my post was born out of frustration and wasn’t as coherent as I might want, but it is clear that you didn’t take anything positive away from what I had to say.  You have to admit, in every complaint a person hears, there is a bit of useful information that can make a process/product/service better.  I’m sorry you couldn’t see that.

Again, I would like to participate to make the solution better, but with a mouth like your’s, who wants to?  You certainly shouldn’t be in the Marketing Department!

And, I do NOT think you work for me!  Thank God for that!


Language: Just because i dont subscribe what you consider to be proper doesnt amount to much. Its your opinion. Also, your retarded assumptions based on 'language' pretty much confirm your an idiot. For example, the whole of the US military including my beloved canoe club the Navy curse...dare i say like Sailors. Yet they are quite competent. But excellent logic on your part, really.

Civility: The entirety of your post was snarky and contained nothing more than hear-say and anecdotal evidence/problems if that much. Once cannot debug anecdotes. Just  because you claim to be 'civil' does not make it so. From my perspective, I was civil  ;D

Take Aways: No, once again, your making assumptions up from thin air. What I took from your post is we need to make this even more simple for the average person. But with nothing more than a general rant, makes it hard.

And honestly, if you cant deal with adult language, then stick to mayberry. Plenty of people find me reasonable. Its the ones with their heads up their asses that seem to have a problem with me. And rightfully so. Because I unload without remorse.

But hey, since im such an evil person, maybe you should tell that to all the users who ive tried to help in some capacity where I can. Im sure they can confirm how much of an asshole I am. :)

Marketing: i will stay out of the marketing dept and stick to the getting shit done dept. The secret one only the annointed can find apparently  ::)

 And seriously, dont bullshit us with 'I want to help but...'. You are either going to or your not. Please dont try and use me or some other factor as an excuse. Nobody is saying its a requirement. But if your going to bitch like this, expect people like me wonder why the hell it is there are no tickets or anything else with your name on it indicating you have the slightest bit of interest in being a part of the solution.

Seriously, crying about language and ignoring the logical shortcomings of your original post brings me back to my original statement. Where do i send the clue?
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: golgoj4 on August 21, 2011, 04:35:47 am
I'm a complete beginner. What are you trying to install on? Are you using supported equipment? I did my test installation on an old scrap PC that I had laying around. It got through the installation but I didn't have any hardware to do anything interesting with it. Next I bought a bare-bones system from a reputable supporter of LMCE (http://lmcecompatible.com/) and everything that they provided me with works perfectly. The only thing that doesn't work is the linux unsupported tuner card that I bought on my own (for a "good" price), even though many suggested a different model. Even with that bad purchase decision I still had many people put a lot of their time trying to support me. When I mentioned that the Wiki wasn't up to date, they suggested that I update it. I stated doing that and now I'm actually beginning to help the project (albeit in my very limited way) rather than just be a person that demands time and attention from those who are very tired of answering the same questions over and over again. I feel your pain but I think that your energies would be better used helping correct the issues with the Wiki rather than just complain about it in the forums.

Thanks for
A) Contributing what you can. Everything helps!
B) Sounding nicer than me!

-golgoj4
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: Techstyle on August 21, 2011, 05:29:56 am
I had never installed or downloaded any Linux software before I installed LinuxMCE.  it did take me a few installs but i did not change anything.  What I did do is be more patient each time (see the 1st rule of LMCE). 
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: bongowongo on August 21, 2011, 10:23:08 am
You are totally right. We are very sorry.
Could you please give us your bank details so we can refund your money.

Oh wait.

If you have something constructive to say, we are all ears, if you get easily frustrated I would advice you to not use any software, or maybe buy a mac or something.
End of disussion.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: uplink on August 21, 2011, 05:28:19 pm
Your response is beyond the caliber I expected.  "Yet another crybaby" is a telling phrase that you should reexamine!  If there are this many "crybabies," maybe you're doing something wrong just as I suspected.

Your use of foul language in this situation shows your character too well!  I was civil, can't you be as well?  You’re not a very good representation of the other fine people who I know work hard.

I know that my post was born out of frustration and wasn’t as coherent as I might want, but it is clear that you didn’t take anything positive away from what I had to say.  You have to admit, in every complaint a person hears, there is a bit of useful information that can make a process/product/service better.  I’m sorry you couldn’t see that.

Again, I would like to participate to make the solution better, but with a mouth like your’s, who wants to?  You certainly shouldn’t be in the Marketing Department!

And, I do NOT think you work for me!  Thank God for that!


As soon as you put things in perspective and realise golgoj4 is a construction worker who took on writing qOrbiter without any programming background, I think you'll agree with me that he has the full right to say "fuck you" with plenty of exclamation marks to your face.

Yes, LMCE has some arcane ways of doing things. These have been added BECAUSE people wanted to make life easier for the users like you. Well, it backfired. Also, the people who worked on those bits disappeared into the void and LMCE doesn't have much help these days. If you don't like it AND you don't want to be patient and try to work things out, maybe help out a bit, then tough. I'm not saying this because I want to bash you. I'm saying this because this is reality. The things you want to be made easier for you lack staff. No amount of yelling, foot stumping and dropping on the floor screaming like a little kid will fix this. If you do this, the best thing that can happen is be left there until you cool down and realise your technique doesn't work. The worst thing that can happen is being kicked in the stomach while you're down. These days the LMCE developers have a tendency towards the latter, to relieve stress :)
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: hari on August 21, 2011, 07:21:07 pm
Valued customer! Thank you for using our product. In order to ensure that our products meet the expectations of our valued customers we would like to invite you to share your thoughts with us about our product.

We would very much appreciate if you would please take just a few moments of your time to provide us the feedback we need to do this.

Thank you!


Questions prefixed with an * are required

*1.    When did you buy our product?
   
[ ] Less than 1 month ago
[ ] 1 - 6 months ago
[ ] 6 - 12 months ago
[ ] More than a year ago
[ ] Can't remember

*2.    How often do you use our product?
   
[ ] Hourly
[ ] Daily
[ ] Weekly
[ ] Monthly
[ ] Yearly
[ ] Never
   
*3.    How satisfied are you with the product quality?
   
[ ] very satisfied
[ ] neutral
[ ] not satisfied
[ ] so satisfied that I could **** a monkey
   
*4.    Compared to other similar products you have used our product is:
   
[ ] don't know
[ ] the best
[ ] better
[ ] about the same
[ ] worse
[ ] you suck
[ ] you suck even more
   
*5.    Compared to other similar products on the market, the value for money of this product is:
   
[ ] excellent
[ ] good
[ ] average
[ ] poor
[ ] very poor
[ ] priceless

*6.    Would you buy this product again?
   
[ ] probably
[ ] probably not
[ ] not before hell freezes over
   
*7.    Would you recommend this product to others you know?
   
[ ] yes
[ ] not sure
[ ] no
[ ] I have no friends
   
8.    Is there anything else that you would like to share with us that would help us improve our product?


Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: bongowongo on August 21, 2011, 07:42:39 pm
Valued customer! Thank you for using our product. In order to ensure that our products meet the expectations of our valued customers we would like to invite you to share your thoughts with us about our product.

We would very much appreciate if you would please take just a few moments of your time to provide us the feedback we need to do this.

Thank you!


Questions prefixed with an * are required

*1.    When did you buy our product?
   
[ ] Less than 1 month ago
[ ] 1 - 6 months ago
[ ] 6 - 12 months ago
[X] More than a year ago
[ ] Can't remember

*2.    How often do you use our product?
   
[X] Hourly
[ ] Daily
[ ] Weekly
[ ] Monthly
[ ] Yearly
[ ] Never
   
*3.    How satisfied are you with the product quality?
   
[ ] very satisfied
[ ] neutral
[ ] not satisfied
[X] so satisfied that I could **** a monkey
   
*4.    Compared to other similar products you have used our product is:
   
[ ] don't know
[ ] the best
[ ] better
[ ] about the same
[ ] worse
[ ] you suck
[X ] you suck even more
   
*5.    Compared to other similar products on the market, the value for money of this product is:
   
[ ] excellent
[ ] good
[ ] average
[ ] poor
[ ] very poor
[X] priceless

*6.    Would you buy this product again?
   
[X] probably
[ ] probably not
[ ] not before hell freezes over
   
*7.    Would you recommend this product to others you know?
   
[ ] yes
[ ] not sure
[ ] no
[X] I have no friends
   
8.    Is there anything else that you would like to share with us that would help us improve our product?
I love you hari


Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: frustrated on August 21, 2011, 07:54:18 pm
Yes, LMCE has some arcane ways of doing things. These have been added BECAUSE people wanted to make life easier for the users like you. Well, it backfired. Also, the people who worked on those bits disappeared into the void and LMCE doesn't have much help these days. If you don't like it AND you don't want to be patient and try to work things out, maybe help out a bit, then tough. I'm not saying this because I want to bash you. I'm saying this because this is reality. The things you want to be made easier for you lack staff. No amount of yelling, foot stumping and dropping on the floor screaming like a little kid will fix this. If you do this, the best thing that can happen is be left there until you cool down and realise your technique doesn't work. The worst thing that can happen is being kicked in the stomach while you're down. These days the LMCE developers have a tendency towards the latter, to relieve stress :)
OK, as I said in my last post I didn’t go about my comments the way I should have; I was pretty frustrated about all the inconsistent results I would get from the same exact installs.  But again, my main points (which were lost in between my rants) are some pretty basic things that could make LMCE easier for newbies to get into:  1. “Download” link takes you to a page with broken links; 2. “Snapshot” link on the Download page takes you to a directory listing with no recommendation on which download to pick; 3. No link (like YouTube videos show previously) to any type of installation instructions until you go to Support, Wiki, Download, instructions;
4. *My Main Point* Why not just tell people that you’re short on help and not to expect the install to work right the first time? Why not tell people to not click too quickly through the setup because background things are still going on?  Tell us to be patient.  Sorry, but the YouTube videos really set you up at a high standard.

As soon as you put things in perspective and realise golgoj4 is a construction worker who took on writing qOrbiter without any programming background, I think you'll agree with me that he has the full right to say "fuck you" with plenty of exclamation marks to your face.
 
I used to be an IT guy (self taught) and now I’m a construction worker!  How do you like that?  In my 18 years in IT (ten years ago – economy here) I never ever responded as unprofessionally as golgoj4’s response even when a user was a jerk like me.  It’s bad PR for the project.  He has to realize that he’s part of the team and his behavior reflects on the entire project.  Sure, I was a *jerk*, but he outdid me by far.  When I do IT stuff (unpaid) for friends and even friends of friends, I don’t get upset when they are confused or even when they get upset.  Sure, I feel it all inside, but never express it to them.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: bongowongo on August 21, 2011, 08:22:04 pm
OK, as I said in my last post I didn’t go about my comments the way I should have; I was pretty frustrated about all the inconsistent results I would get from the same exact installs.  But again, my main points (which were lost in between my rants) are some pretty basic things that could make LMCE easier for newbies to get into:  1. “Download” link takes you to a page with broken links; 2. “Snapshot” link on the Download page takes you to a directory listing with no recommendation on which download to pick; 3. No link (like YouTube videos show previously) to any type of installation instructions until you go to Support, Wiki, Download, instructions;
4. *My Main Point* Why not just tell people that you’re short on help and not to expect the install to work right the first time? Why not tell people to not click too quickly through the setup because background things are still going on?  Tell us to be patient.  Sorry, but the YouTube videos really set you up at a high standard.
I used to be an IT guy (self taught) and now I’m a construction worker!  How do you like that?  In my 18 years in IT (ten years ago – economy here) I never ever responded as unprofessionally as golgoj4’s response even when a user was a jerk like me.  It’s bad PR for the project.  He has to realize that he’s part of the team and his behavior reflects on the entire project.  Sure, I was a *jerk*, but he outdid me by far.  When I do IT stuff (unpaid) for friends and even friends of friends, I don’t get upset when they are confused or even when they get upset.  Sure, I feel it all inside, but never express it to them.


#1 rule LinuxMCE = be patient.
It is written everywhere.

It is ok to be frustrated but do not take it out on us. I am on my 194th install, and I do not even use the system in my house.
And if you deliver a "punch", expect to receive one.
We do have our flaws, and saying that golgoj4 is unprofessional really undermines your own self-reflection that you were a jerk. So you see you are a jerk, but have no empathy why golgoj4 reacted like this?

If you want to help, please help.
If not, than not, but do not let your frustration frustrate us.

We are not evil, we are not nagging bitches, come to your senses, and go go go, there is a lot of stuff to do.

p.s.
Also look at this
http://www.linuxmce.org/index.php/news/developer/155-rc-time
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: uplink on August 21, 2011, 08:30:44 pm
4. *My Main Point* Why not just tell people that you’re short on help and not to expect the install to work right the first time? Why not tell people to not click too quickly through the setup because background things are still going on?  Tell us to be patient.  Sorry, but the YouTube videos really set you up at a high standard.

I wonder how a "help needed" banner would work on the front page and some warnings on the installation pages, plus invitations to update the instructions if they don't match the experience (that's what collaboration in free software is about).

I used to be an IT guy (self taught) and now I’m a construction worker!  How do you like that?  In my 18 years in IT (ten years ago – economy here) I never ever responded as unprofessionally as golgoj4’s response even when a user was a jerk like me.  It’s bad PR for the project.  He has to realize that he’s part of the team and his behavior reflects on the entire project.  Sure, I was a *jerk*, but he outdid me by far.  When I do IT stuff (unpaid) for friends and even friends of friends, I don’t get upset when they are confused or even when they get upset.  Sure, I feel it all inside, but never express it to them.

I don't remember golgoj4 responding like this before, so I guess he waited for the right moment to do it. I guess you just got "lucky". Normally you'd get a similar kind of response from someone else :) but he's either not awake yet, or he is trying this new restrain in expression thing we're trying out.

Also, to not get in any "fuck you, fuck all of you and your pets" state of mind, I stopped helping friends and friends of friends in IT (unless they pay me quite a hefty sum, which they're not willing to). :D These days I can even genuinely tell them that I don't know Windows (I forgot it all - for real). I don't care if they don't call me anymore (because all the calls I received were about their computers anyway) :P


This being said, if you have the time and will to help, please have a look at the bits that annoy you and see if you see any quick fixes. Possy loves tickets in trac, so you should report your issues there (or contribute to already open tickets if they address your issues). Code and patches are always very welcome :)
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: davegravy on August 21, 2011, 10:31:47 pm
I used to be an IT guy (self taught) and now I’m a construction worker!  How do you like that?  In my 18 years in IT (ten years ago – economy here) I never ever responded as unprofessionally as golgoj4’s response even when a user was a jerk like me.  It’s bad PR for the project.  He has to realize that he’s part of the team and his behavior reflects on the entire project.

I've been observing this project with interest for a while. I've written about this before, and have been ignored/flamed consistently for my unpopular ideas, but I repeat it here for you since it's relevant and may help you understand your frustration. This is my honest reflection on things:

Almost every project contributor is a developer involved in the technical aspects. It can be argued that these devs, stressed to their limits with workload, do not make good PR people (understandable!). I've said before that the project could use some professional grade marketing and PR (among other help), but the devs who have claimed ownership of the project through their contributions are not amenable to restructuring things. They like the status quo (with exception to their work load and the lack of new help coming in), and they like to try to wear as many different hats themselves as possible (coding, UI design, marketing, PR, project management, etc).

I argue that the team does not place enough value in PR. As I understand it, most feel that the technical merits/achievements of the project speak for themselves and should almost be the sole focus of the project (as evidenced by the meritocracy system in place, where only impressive technical contributions earn you a voice in the project). While the technical merits of the project do indeed attract like-minded people (technically skilled / developers) the lack of PR focus does alienate the larger novice user base.

I fear that unless there is some change, LinuxMCE will remain a (very cool) research platform for new smart home technologies. Commercial products from Apple, Logitech, Microsoft, etc will borrow/steal ideas from it (this is already happening). Their products will be adopted by users on a scale many orders of magnitude beyond LinuxMCE, despite being technically inferior. The big corps will take all the credit (and money).

I don't get the sense that the LinuxMCE community minds the prospect of losing out to inferior competition however. Each individual member takes solace in knowing LinuxMCE is technically superior, and to take the necessary measures to achieve widespread adoption, they feel, is tantamount to "selling-out" (or something...).
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: golgoj4 on August 21, 2011, 11:20:02 pm
OK, as I said in my last post I didn’t go about my comments the way I should have; I was pretty frustrated about all the inconsistent results I would get from the same exact installs.  But again, my main points (which were lost in between my rants) are some pretty basic things that could make LMCE easier for newbies to get into:  1. “Download” link takes you to a page with broken links; 2. “Snapshot” link on the Download page takes you to a directory listing with no recommendation on which download to pick; 3. No link (like YouTube videos show previously) to any type of installation instructions until you go to Support, Wiki, Download, instructions;
4. *My Main Point* Why not just tell people that you’re short on help and not to expect the install to work right the first time? Why not tell people to not click too quickly through the setup because background things are still going on?  Tell us to be patient.  Sorry, but the YouTube videos really set you up at a high standard.
I used to be an IT guy (self taught) and now I’m a construction worker!  How do you like that?  In my 18 years in IT (ten years ago – economy here) I never ever responded as unprofessionally as golgoj4’s response even when a user was a jerk like me.  It’s bad PR for the project.  He has to realize that he’s part of the team and his behavior reflects on the entire project.  Sure, I was a *jerk*, but he outdid me by far.  When I do IT stuff (unpaid) for friends and even friends of friends, I don’t get upset when they are confused or even when they get upset.  Sure, I feel it all inside, but never express it to them.


Lol, its a good thing you dont work on my construction sites. You might get your feelings hurt! Seriously, i should find the youtube videos of me on the site. Nice no. Finished on time and under budget? Yes :) As far as PR, i can only hope my incessant shilling of LMCE to the world will offset my random passionate outbursts. But seriously, get off the language = professional.

The broken links issue will be looked into, though this is the 1st ive heard of it. Generally, these things find their way to a ticket so awesome people like sambucca can squash them.

Lastly,  i have video production skills. But not a lot of time. Now if you wanted to make some kinda script (no not that kind of script) for me to translate into a video for super new users, i would be more than happy to collaborate on that. And please, dont think im bullshitting. If i offer to try an help, im serious as a heart attack. Even a rough outline of the points that need to be hit or something like that. I recently downloaded the old google video version in the idea of re-cutting it to add some new elements, but broham is short on time and long on tasks (im still learning c++). And yes, maybe a splash screen showing the rules of linuxmce with BE PATIENT being #1 and #2 might help some. But constructive feedback that can be acted upon!

So lets turn this thing around into something constructive for everyone.
And this time i mean it when i say have a nice day.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: golgoj4 on August 21, 2011, 11:27:46 pm
I've been observing this project with interest for a while. I've written about this before, and have been ignored/flamed consistently for my unpopular ideas, but I repeat it here for you since it's relevant and may help you understand your frustration. This is my honest reflection on things:

Almost every project contributor is a developer involved in the technical aspects. It can be argued that these devs, stressed to their limits with workload, do not make good PR people (understandable!). I've said before that the project could use some professional grade marketing and PR (among other help), but the devs who have claimed ownership of the project through their contributions are not amenable to restructuring things. They like the status quo (with exception to their work load and the lack of new help coming in), and they like to try to wear as many different hats themselves as possible (coding, UI design, marketing, PR, project management, etc).

I argue that the team does not place enough value in PR. As I understand it, most feel that the technical merits/achievements of the project speak for themselves and should almost be the sole focus of the project (as evidenced by the meritocracy system in place, where only impressive technical contributions earn you a voice in the project). While the technical merits of the project do indeed attract like-minded people (technically skilled / developers) the lack of PR focus does alienate the larger novice user base.

I fear that unless there is some change, LinuxMCE will remain a (very cool) research platform for new smart home technologies. Commercial products from Apple, Logitech, Microsoft, etc will borrow/steal ideas from it (this is already happening). Their products will be adopted by users on a scale many orders of magnitude beyond LinuxMCE, despite being technically inferior. The big corps will take all the credit (and money).

I don't get the sense that the LinuxMCE community minds the prospect of losing out to inferior competition however. Each individual member takes solace in knowing LinuxMCE is technically superior, and to take the necessary measures to achieve widespread adoption, they feel, is tantamount to "selling-out" (or something...).

Interesting take.

Ill keep it short. On the one hand, i do agree that some form of PR dept would be nice. But in my opinion, the uptake for linuxmce has not been the PR. its been because its a hell of a lot more complicated to setup than XBMC or boxee. Now, with that difficulty comes rewards when its working, but the average person frankly isnt interested in a technical exercise.

So to me, the most important thing is
*how easy is it to install
*how pretty it is

Because lets face it, UI is king and we lag (but are currently working hard) to bring that more than up-to-date.

So from my perspective, when it becomes as easy to install as other media center software (when in fact its much more complex as HA but people focus on media 1st) and our UI is all shiny and pretty, we will see a larger uptake in users and developers. Because at that point, the shite will sell itself so to speak. I really disagree with the premise that curt dev's make people leave. If that was the case, many an open source project would have imploded by now. No, its the content and presentation. And we are busting our asses to get that polished!

-golgoj4

just my 2cents
-golgoj4
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: ardirtbiker on August 21, 2011, 11:41:37 pm
amen!
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: klanmce on August 22, 2011, 02:12:54 am
Hi Frustrated

What are the errors you are having, is it only avwizard failing and where is it failing at?

What hardware are you running?

To be honest with you, time spent in LMCE is not a waste, it will be rewarding at the end. If you want to compare LMCE, it is way better than some commercially made software which are riddled with bugs, trust me I know, for the past two years I have experienced this working a system a minimum of 12 hrs a day, just to have it stable.

You just need time and patience
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: klovell on August 22, 2011, 04:29:35 am
Frustrated, just take a break dude.  Sometimes you have to just walk away and regroup.  I was ready to climb a bell tower with a scope until I had to leave town.  I was gone for a while with no LMCE, forums, or home network but when I came back I had new appreciation and a higher level of patients towards LMCE.

When I first started with this i shared more of your views.  As an IT professional I can appreciate your structured way on thinking.  No offense guys but my CIO would have scrapped this project a long time ago.  She sure as shit wouldn't be thinking about 10.10 when 8.10 hasn't been released.  But I work for a company who needs to turn a profit and as it's already been pointed out you didn't pay for this.  You're going to have to roll up your sleeves and get dirty, flex those IT muscles and figure some shit out.  Life with LMCE got a lot easier for me once I accepted that.  I haven't seen another product that does what LMCE can do for a better price (excluding Dianemo :-)) so trust me it's worth the head aches. 

My only issue is the wide spread belief that coding is this easy task that any dummy can just do.  If you don't come from an IT background and you learned to code well good for you.  I've been solely charged with multi million dollar datacenters and server rooms for years now and I'm usually dancing circles around co-workers technically, but I couldn't code my way out of a paper bag.  I can read some of it but only enough to break it or hack it to suit my needs.  If you're like me and can't help the dev technically the way they need it start cleaning up the wiki so the next "Frustrated" isn't so Frustrated.

That's my 2 cents.... I love LMCE! 
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: tschak909 on August 22, 2011, 05:39:20 am
Believe it or not, I do understand all of these perspectives...

We are faced with an exceedingly difficult task, to take a massive software stack, and not only be able to understand it, but also to be able to maintain it, and be able to effectively add features, fix bugs, and bring the project forward overall.

There are over FOUR MILLION LINES of our own code.. OUR OWN... not counting the 12 other projects we appropriate (MythTV, Asterisk, VDR, Xine, etc.)

We have to shoulder all that burden...

So yes, when someone asks what we need? we need people who will roll up their sleeves and code.

We need people who will get things done if they want them done, It's not at all about thinking that "coding is this magically easy thing to do." IT'S WHAT _HAS_TO BE DONE! PERIOD. End of story. In the end, code is what solves the problems. No, don't get caught up in the chicken-egg argument of attracting attention, it is a red herring here. In the end, that is wishful thinking and ultimately doesn't solve anything, you work with what you have, because in the end, it is what you have. Just know that what you have can change, and you adapt accordingly.

P.R. is a funny thing, it's predicated on selling the strengths of a system while downplaying its weaknesses. This is a good thing to do when the product is ready to sell, or can be put in a position to sell effectively, LinuxMCE is not in this position for several reasons:

* We have licensing issues due to essential core parts of the code being licensed under a license that prohibits commercial distribution with hardware as a complete system. These pieces need to be re-engineered to be GPL compliant, to lift this restriction, while allowing community development to proceed organically.
* We have UI issues to solve, ranging from capabilities (people want zoomy zoomy flashy flashy crispy fast fast zoomzoom), to targets (making sure the UI is present on-screen, and off-screen on popular devices. Orbiter wasn't up to the task. Touch Orbiter was a short term solution proposed by Dianemo to get Orbiter onto more targets. qOrbiter (as it is called now) is the future, as it will solve both of the above issues by providing a cross platform UI with tons of capability in QML, atop the Qt toolkit which is very cross platform.
* We have architectural issues to solve, as the technology in the devices we appropriate gets better, we need to become more dynamic in our handling of these devices, some come, some go, but we need to be able to adapt better than we do.
* We have to improve our install and systems integration. This is an uphill battle that causes cancer, drives men to drinking, and has been known to end loving relationships. It's easy to make things just work, when you're Apple, and you make the hardware, and the software, and people buy your product and afterwards be told, "You do it our way, or not at all." We don't have that luxury.

I can keep going, but I'll stop there...

So please, it's not elitism that I have been perceived to espouse, it's the simple fact that I am frustrated at the sheer tidal wave of entitlement and expectation that has been thrown at me and the rest of the team since we took over in 2008. It's really very simple, if you want it done, you do the coding.

-Thom
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: frustrated on August 22, 2011, 07:11:16 am
Well I have to really thank all of you for the responses.  In the end, it wasn't a bad discussion and I want you to know that I learned a lot.  So much so, that I got through my install!  I went back and took it one step at a time through the Wiki & instructions, took a break, went slow, and got it done (I did have a few problems, but...)

I'll really make an effort to report my problems and help out.  I do appreciate all that you all do!

Thanks again!
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: purps on August 22, 2011, 10:46:56 am
Well you've managed to get through your install - your issues couldn't have been THAT major, considering you made your first post only yesterday. May I ask why you felt you couldn't just ask the relevant questions, and instead signed up a new account (I'm assuming) in order to make these comments anonymously?

As for the wiki, I tried to put myself in the shoes of a brand new user trying to download LMCE for the first time, and I genuinely didn't feel that it was too difficult. I guess the main page could be better organised for people that just want to quickly get up and running, but then that said, this isn't the kind of system that one can just "quickly get up and running". There is a certain amount of reading around/research that should, no, MUST be done before installing. Everybody expects it to be like a standard Ubuntu release i.e. don't do any research, burn it, bang it in the drive, and away you go, no issues. LMCE is not like that, because it's insanely complicated, AND the team working on it is a fraction of the size.

At the end of the day, if you feel that any wiki pages aren't as good as they could be, then why don't you change it? Or if you don't feel happy doing this off the bat, post on the forum for some advice or hold a little poll to see what people think would be best, and THEN make the changes. Either way, it's up to the likes of me and you to do these kinds of tasks, because for people who CAN code, it's not a good use of their time. If they spent all their time updating wiki pages, then you wouldn't have a working install, and we wouldn't now have a RC.

Cheers,
Matt.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: Techstyle on August 22, 2011, 06:56:03 pm
Maybe we should add something to track and fix wiki pages that appear out of date.  these could be assigned to non-coders to do some research and fix them.

Valent (I think) added the box at the top which says which version it is applicable which was a good start

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: tschak909 on August 22, 2011, 08:24:20 pm
I'm for ANYTHING that will help age pages appropriately. ;)

-Thom
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: posde on August 22, 2011, 08:40:13 pm
I am AGAINST EVERYTHING that make me act age appropriately.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: bongowongo on August 22, 2011, 09:17:14 pm
me too
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: frustrated on August 23, 2011, 03:29:42 am
Well you've managed to get through your install - your issues couldn't have been THAT major, considering you made your first post only yesterday. May I ask why you felt you couldn't just ask the relevant questions, and instead signed up a new account (I'm assuming) in order to make these comments anonymously?

As for the wiki, I tried to put myself in the shoes of a brand new user trying to download LMCE for the first time, and I genuinely didn't feel that it was too difficult. I guess the main page could be better organised for people that just want to quickly get up and running, but then that said, this isn't the kind of system that one can just "quickly get up and running". There is a certain amount of reading around/research that should, no, MUST be done before installing. Everybody expects it to be like a standard Ubuntu release i.e. don't do any research, burn it, bang it in the drive, and away you go, no issues. LMCE is not like that, because it's insanely complicated, AND the team working on it is a fraction of the size.

At the end of the day, if you feel that any wiki pages aren't as good as they could be, then why don't you change it? Or if you don't feel happy doing this off the bat, post on the forum for some advice or hold a little poll to see what people think would be best, and THEN make the changes. Either way, it's up to the likes of me and you to do these kinds of tasks, because for people who CAN code, it's not a good use of their time. If they spent all their time updating wiki pages, then you wouldn't have a working install, and we wouldn't now have a RC.

Cheers,
Matt.

Actually, they were pretty major, at least for me.  I would run the install over & over and get different errors and background tasks would hang during the setup wizard.  I’m used to installs going the same way every time and was freaking out when it didn’t.

I originally thought that it was something with my hardware.  I put together a bunch of parts last week, but they’re all mainstream – late ABIT motherboard with a GeForce 8600 video card.  During the first (many) installs last week, I was updating the video driver and following some out of date posts.  Then on Friday, I gave that up, but kept getting into problems with hanging, different results on the same install, etc.  I didn’t find many posts about my errors and I think that led to my frustration.  I would go back to different posts and then watched the YouTube videos again which I think got me the most frustrated.  I felt kind of stupid seeing that others could do this but I couldn’t figure it out.  I just got too frustrated & angry to post any questions.

What made it work for me (and I still did several repeated installs) is finding a post that said that errored out setup wizard installs would be caught up later.  I just decided “good enough” would do the job and it did.  I also relaxed, took a break, let it sit, had patience and took the wizard slow I think helped.

I think I’ll keep my account name as frustrated as a reminder…  :-)

- Nate
edit: fix mb
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: purps on August 23, 2011, 02:56:58 pm
Maybe we should add something to track and fix wiki pages that appear out of date.  these could be assigned to non-coders to do some research and fix them.

Valent (I think) added the box at the top which says which version it is applicable which was a good start

Any thoughts?

Yes that version info table is extremely useful, if a little annoying to fill out. It was weirdbeard65 who came up with that I think.

How would one go about tracking wiki pages and assigning tasks? I'm assuming using Trac for example would be overkill?

I am going to have a think about how to reorganise the main page from the point of view of the new user, it could be a bit more logical I guess.

Cheers,
Matt.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: davegravy on August 23, 2011, 05:28:38 pm
Yes that version info table is extremely useful, if a little annoying to fill out. It was weirdbeard65 who came up with that I think.

How would one go about tracking wiki pages and assigning tasks? I'm assuming using Trac for example would be overkill?

I am going to have a think about how to reorganise the main page from the point of view of the new user, it could be a bit more logical I guess.

Cheers,
Matt.

This is a great idea! Also I've been wanting to do a reinstall and take notes about my steps from the point of view of a new user. If we could get a bunch of people to do this (with different sets of hardware) perhaps we could:

a) put together a more comprehensive installation/setup guide (one that also deals with the multitude of problems that might be encountered along the way)
b) determine some opportunities for improving the installation experience from a development point of view
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: frustrated on August 24, 2011, 08:29:03 am
This is a great idea! Also I've been wanting to do a reinstall and take notes about my steps from the point of view of a new user. If we could get a bunch of people to do this (with different sets of hardware) perhaps we could:

a) put together a more comprehensive installation/setup guide (one that also deals with the multitude of problems that might be encountered along the way)
b) determine some opportunities for improving the installation experience from a development point of view

I'm definetely up for helping on this one.  I've kept notes over the last week as I've done all my installs.  Fortunately, my capture card and z-wave USB interface are the way, so I can really get into it.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: brononius on August 24, 2011, 01:43:20 pm

I am going to have a think about how to reorganise the main page from the point of view of the new user, it could be a bit more logical I guess.


Hey Matt,

You've answered this to soon. I wanted to suggest just the same thing. Let us rebuild the whole manual stuff.
A nice startpage with different sectors (global idea, hardware, installation guides, electrical part, telephone part, media...).

The problem today i see is:
- some people speak computer languages
- some people are using for years linuxmce
- some people only want the media part, others the domotica
- nobody (this is for all IT people!) wants to write manuals
- ...
LinuxMCE is to big to explain on one A4 page (Why doesn't this sound the same on a computer?).


I've had (got) the same frustrations like many of us, new users.
I installed it several time (1 year ago i gave up). And i came back. Because i believe in the general idea of linuxmce. Mainly because today, you don't have a proper (cheap) domoticaserver. One of the reasons that the house automation doesn't come up?
Now, it's very hard to see the red line between it all.
For the moment, I finally managed to install the software on my server. I finally managed to get a light on/off. Next is an orbiter. After that some ip phones... Still need to figure out how i can add my power outlets, my playstation, how to use the orbiters...
And the hours i put in it, just to get a light bulb on... It's a bit...


A long the way, i try to write it down in steps that i can remember. Of course, this is again for me. Because i use it as such.


I think we should create a nice folder structure, with in there manuals, forum topics, the wiki pages, the faqs...
Let me know if we want to start a work group or something for this! I'm in....


ps i've got the same feeling with the forum. I think that this can also use some more detailed subgroups... :-X
Maybe a subgroup for discussions about documentation? ;)
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: bongowongo on August 24, 2011, 06:42:28 pm
I like all your enthusiasm, but experience tells me

Big plans, no outcome.

Let's do this right. I will make a forum topic with some outlines, I will post it here
Everybody who wants to join, can participate in the topic

We can put together a little focussed workgroup. The only thing I ask is some commitment.
This is to prevent that people come, say that they will do X but never finish and we have a half finished project.

Let me think about this.




Hey Matt,

You've answered this to soon. I wanted to suggest just the same thing. Let us rebuild the whole manual stuff.
A nice startpage with different sectors (global idea, hardware, installation guides, electrical part, telephone part, media...).

The problem today i see is:
- some people speak computer languages
- some people are using for years linuxmce
- some people only want the media part, others the domotica
- nobody (this is for all IT people!) wants to write manuals
- ...
LinuxMCE is to big to explain on one A4 page (Why doesn't this sound the same on a computer?).


I've had (got) the same frustrations like many of us, new users.
I installed it several time (1 year ago i gave up). And i came back. Because i believe in the general idea of linuxmce. Mainly because today, you don't have a proper (cheap) domoticaserver. One of the reasons that the house automation doesn't come up?
Now, it's very hard to see the red line between it all.
For the moment, I finally managed to install the software on my server. I finally managed to get a light on/off. Next is an orbiter. After that some ip phones... Still need to figure out how i can add my power outlets, my playstation, how to use the orbiters...
And the hours i put in it, just to get a light bulb on... It's a bit...


A long the way, i try to write it down in steps that i can remember. Of course, this is again for me. Because i use it as such.
  • http://www.oniria.be/pri/index.php/linux/233-linuxmce


I think we should create a nice folder structure, with in there manuals, forum topics, the wiki pages, the faqs...
Let me know if we want to start a work group or something for this! I'm in....


ps i've got the same feeling with the forum. I think that this can also use some more detailed subgroups... :-X
Maybe a subgroup for discussions about documentation? ;)



http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php/board,347.0.html
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: e_balk on September 04, 2011, 03:55:10 am
Hi all,

First of all i would like to say how great an idea i think LinuxMCE is!
The idea of an all-round Media-center / Home Automation software package is great and i think a lot of great things have been achieved. I like the compatibility and broad approach of all you guys to get the most widely usable product there can be.

I would like to be of assistance to this project although i have no skills in programming i do have some experience with project management and have commercial experience in translating user wishes to task descriptions for programmers, this experience might help the programming community of this project find some ease and direction in their efforts to build a stable base from which the more advanced features can be worked out. Maybe it would be possible for me to get in contact with some of the "owners" of this project to sit and talk about the current situation, status and the possibilities, because i think there might be a lot more possible with this project.

If you are interested and would appreciate the extra set of brains please PM me or mail me as you undoubtedly have access to my email-address from this forum.

With kind regards,
Erwin

PS. I'm very interested in helping with the design of the UI to, i'm all for simple and sleek interfaces and would be willing to help create some template for such a subproject.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: tschak909 on September 04, 2011, 04:30:54 am
Hello,

You aren't the first Project Manager to come in and suggest a need for your services, so I will say the same thing that I've said time and time again, when someone like you comes in here:

We do not have enough manpower to even warrant a management layer. Simple as that.

We need people to just get in and do the work.

It's easy to pretend to be in charge. It's yet another when you take the burden on your shoulders, and realize that you are now a slave to all around you; A very humbling thought.


I say this, because quite frankly, I've seen so many people like you, vie for power positions...just because you think you can do it. You scare me. People who want power rarely deserve it.

Those who handle it best, are the ones who have it thrust upon them and take it because they have no other choice.

Ponder.

-Thom
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: davegravy on September 04, 2011, 05:32:25 pm
Hello,

You aren't the first Project Manager to come in and suggest a need for your services, so I will say the same thing that I've said time and time again, when someone like you comes in here:

We do not have enough manpower to even warrant a management layer. Simple as that.

We need people to just get in and do the work.

It's easy to pretend to be in charge. It's yet another when you take the burden on your shoulders, and realize that you are now a slave to all around you; A very humbling thought.


I say this, because quite frankly, I've seen so many people like you, vie for power positions...just because you think you can do it. You scare me. People who want power rarely deserve it.

Those who handle it best, are the ones who have it thrust upon them and take it because they have no other choice.

Ponder.

-Thom

What's up with the assumption that a manager is someone seeking to usurp power? In our working lives one's manager is usually one's superior, but

A) this isn't our working life, and
B) even in the working world it can be the opposite (e.g. I frequently manage my boss - he is technically very competent but he lacks any organization and relies on me for that. There's no threat of me stealing his thunder)

Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: tschak909 on September 04, 2011, 05:39:45 pm
I do realize that I have made a very sweeping assumption here. My original assertion that we do not have sufficient manpower still stands. The latter assumption came from waves of people who have come to us in the past and exhibited this behaviour. Fool me once...shame on you...fool me twice? ;)

Okay, I will relent, and back off from this assumption.

e_balk, thank you for your offer of help. We do not have sufficient numbers of people that warrant being managed. Perhaps there are other ways you can help? Documentation? Learning the system and supporting users? This would help in the short term, and give enough experience to perhaps take on bigger roles in the future.

-Thom
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: bongowongo on September 04, 2011, 06:54:03 pm
Managers are bad, I am one.

We need do-ers and builders
not self-proclaimed managers, it is useless.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: Techstyle on September 05, 2011, 02:51:22 pm
He was talking about Project Management and not being a Manager.  Depending on the organsation Project Managers can have considerable authority with cosiderable responsibility or little authority with little responsibility.  The second one mentioned is more of a coordinator role which could be useful in some areas of this project.  This person could own the list of tasks and make sure any updates or changes to the tasks or schedules were comunicated to the relevant parties.  This coordinator/facilitator role is similar to that being done by Bongowongo on the WIKI project.  The Dev's themselves are doing this role right now and this may help lighten the load a little.  I know we just need more do-ers, but we have potential facilitators that could lighten the load of the current Devs.

Just my 2 cents
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: bongowongo on September 05, 2011, 04:20:48 pm
He was talking about Project Management and not being a Manager.  Depending on the organsation Project Managers can have considerable authority with cosiderable responsibility or little authority with little responsibility.  The second one mentioned is more of a coordinator role which could be useful in some areas of this project.  This person could own the list of tasks and make sure any updates or changes to the tasks or schedules were comunicated to the relevant parties.  This coordinator/facilitator role is similar to that being done by Bongowongo on the WIKI project.  The Dev's themselves are doing this role right now and this may help lighten the load a little.  I know we just need more do-ers, but we have potential facilitators that could lighten the load of the current Devs.

Just my 2 cents

We are trying to this for the wiki.
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: totallymaxed on September 05, 2011, 04:25:25 pm
He was talking about Project Management and not being a Manager.  Depending on the organsation Project Managers can have considerable authority with cosiderable responsibility or little authority with little responsibility.  The second one mentioned is more of a coordinator role which could be useful in some areas of this project.  This person could own the list of tasks and make sure any updates or changes to the tasks or schedules were comunicated to the relevant parties.  This coordinator/facilitator role is similar to that being done by Bongowongo on the WIKI project.  The Dev's themselves are doing this role right now and this may help lighten the load a little.  I know we just need more do-ers, but we have potential facilitators that could lighten the load of the current Devs.

Just my 2 cents

Sorry but I don't often agree with Thom on these kinds of issues... but I think in this case he's basically right. The existing Devs don't need managing or someone acting as a coordinator - the team is small enough and familiar enough with the tasks to not require that. What they do need is more actual people willing to get involved in the engineering of code.

Now that is not to say the OP should be discouraged by what I am saying or to feel unwanted as their are probably many other areas nestled around the actual coding effort that might well benefit from some of his skills. So I don't want anyone to see this as put down or any kind negative reaction at all.

Just my 10c worth so to speak.

All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: posde on September 05, 2011, 04:42:38 pm
And we already have someone that knows how to use a whip
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: bongowongo on September 05, 2011, 04:47:45 pm
Whip or Bongo?
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: totallymaxed on September 05, 2011, 04:49:24 pm
Whip or Bongo?

Both...

or you could 'whip your Bongo!'

:-)
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: totallymaxed on September 05, 2011, 04:49:51 pm
And we already have someone that knows how to use a whip

Exactly :-)

Andrew
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: mkbrown69 on September 06, 2011, 03:36:22 am
I'm going to contribute some thoughts for discussion, from the viewpoint of someone looking in from the periphery of the project.  I think that one factor in the recurrence of people coming forth offering their services as a project manager type may stem from the appearance that the project doesn't have a sense of direction.  Some end users might see some of the threads in the forums, and the resultant activities in Trac and SVN, as a sign that the project is simply a bunch of people throwing code they like into a domotics system, and that the project is a barely contained anarchy, ruled  by a Darwinistic approach of "he who writes the code wins".  

Now, some may find that offensive, but it's not intended to be;  it's intended to portray the possible viewpoints of someone who's seen the various YouTube videos, have come on by the community and started looking around.  I've been following the project for couple of years now, so I've seen more of an evolution of the project and the dynamics involved, and I know things are more complex than that, but I'm trying to convey the views of newbies coming across the project.  If someone is going to commit their time to rolling out LMCE to control their home, their safe and comfortable castle, they may feel more comfortable knowing that it's going somewhere, and is going to be around for the foreseeable future.  So, if they're excited enough about the system and the project, they volunteer their services so that they can guarantee that both will be around.  

Because of this perception that the project lacks direction, it appears that there may be a deficiency in the project's communication plans, one that can be easily remedied by the same refresh activities going on with the wiki and the website.  Maybe an "officially documented" steering committee and processes can be put into the wiki, detailing who's governing the project, and what the goals are for the next release.  This may exist informally already, like discussions in IRC, but if it were to be put into the wiki with some kind of roadmap, that may also help those who wish to contribute.  Something along the lines of pain points, features intended to be incorporated into the next release, platform and infrastructure changes or directions, that kind of thing.  That way, those who wish to contribute can work in the same direction as the core devs, rather than working on code which may be at odds with the planned directions of the project.

My other concern is a process concern, which may help with the perception that the project is a barely contained anarchy, ruled  by a Darwinistic approach of "he who writes the code wins".  For example, right now there's a somewhat animated thread in the feature request forum on the topic of monitoring.  This has been repeated in the past in other threads, where animated and heated discussions about what technology/projects/code should be implemented, and he who writes the code wins.  While it's obviously necessary to have code written to get features implemented, my concern is less of the "what" and more of the "how" things make it into the project.  I, like many others, have my favorite projects/tools, etc., which I will defend and debate vigorously.  My concern, and recommendation, is that there be a process for getting code or functionality into LMCE, one that takes into account a requirements analysis for the immediate need, consideration for how it can be extended upon or repurposed for other needs, and a wholistic approach to how it fits into the overall LMCE architecture.  Thom's concerns about duct-taping on code and hacks are valid, and should extend to other modules/frameworks that go into the architecture.

Thom's made comments in the past about the huge size of the LMCE codebase, and all the challenges that have been faced since LMCE came about from PlutoHome.  I've had similar issues at my workplace, re-platforming other group's "lost turds" where some project had engineered a solution carte blanche,  without giving due consideration to existing infrastructure, supportability or lifecycle management. It's not a fun place to be in, and I expect that the devs don't want a repeat of the PlutoHome re-platforming experience some time down the road.  That's why I am suggesting a steering committee and a process for vetting new and current code/functionality, plus an organizational approach that seems to work well...

Maybe some or all of the core devs can take a similar approach to that of the kernel dev team (given that LMCE is in some ways as complex as the Kernel!).  I'm suggesting subsystem maintainers... Those devs, deeply knowledgeable about the subsystems under their purview,  can shepherd those of us who wish to contribute code or functionality to the project, as they would know all the aspects of those subsystems, and can recommend ways to implement new code and functionality without duplicating effort or technology.  This would also give new contributors a contact with whom they could learn from (think mentoring), and eventually spread the development load across a broader base of developers, all working towards a common set of goals. It may also take some of the pressure off of Thom and some of the others who have carried the weight of LMCE on their shoulders, freeing them up to look at the bigger architecture and feature sets.

None of this is meant to ruffle feathers or be construed as criticism.  Rather, take it as an indicator of your success, of a job well done in showing people what a domotic system can be capable of.  People want to contribute; the challenge is communicating where the help is most needed, and harnessing people's enthusiasm and skills.

Speaking for myself, I'm not a programmer; I couldn't C++ my way out of a wet paper bag, so I won't be coding any wonderful new features anytime soon.  That doesn't mean I don't plan to contribute to the project.  My day job has me sys-admining Linux systems running on pizza boxes to mainframes, and a variety of hypervisors to boot.  So, I'm going to bring the mentality of someone charged with maintaing a highly-available, secure, stable, and supportable hosting environment to any contributions I make to LMCE.  If there are pain points that are taxing the core devs, I'd need to know what they are before I could even hope to help.  I'll post to that effect in a separate thread on the dev forum.

Hopefully this provides some food for thought as LMCE goes through it's growing pains approaching 8.10 gold...

/Mike
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: bongowongo on September 06, 2011, 08:26:24 am
This is what we try to do with the wikigroup for linuxmce.
To get some order and uniformity in the wiki
 
Hey it is a start
Title: Re: OMG, why do you make this so difficult?
Post by: hari on September 06, 2011, 11:58:16 am
the people behind LinuxMCE are not doing this for the glory or for other people out there but for their own use and fun. If other people can make use out of the code, even better. That is why we contribute our code as GPL. This is how free software works. We also have management. I'm the community leader. Possy is the release manager. Contributors have a voice. We vote in IRC for important things. This is how we steer things. We have a big picture and a direction. If you can't see it you should look better.

br Hari