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General => Users => Topic started by: kvelland on March 14, 2011, 09:58:16 am

Title: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 14, 2011, 09:58:16 am
I'm currently building my house and have a goal of controlling "every" aspect of my house from a LinuxMCE setup.

1. Temperature control
2. Z-wave for all the lights, the electricians are putting in the components as I write
3. Music in multiple rooms, with built inn speakers
4. Possible to stream different tv signal to different rooms
5. Security systems with surveillance cameras
6. pluss much more, what cool things can be done

My budget is good and I rather do this the right way. I'm putting Cat6 cables inn all the rooms, I have a central room to put my Core, this room will also have the cable/satelite input, all the Cat6 cables ends up here. I also make it possible to wire from the speakers to both this room and to central location around the house, places to put my MD's maybe?

I understand that this is going to take some time. I tried out a little bit this weekend, and yes.. things take time.

Would greatly appreciate all input on how to best solve the different things.
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Marie.O on March 14, 2011, 10:37:15 am
Where are you located? Is this a new build or a renovation?
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 14, 2011, 12:49:22 pm
Where are you located? Is this a new build or a renovation?

I live in norway. It is a new build.
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Marie.O on March 14, 2011, 01:41:47 pm
I have said this over and over again, but will repeat it nonetheless: In a new build, I would not go Z-Wave but KNX. If you want to know why, search the forum and the wiki.
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: totallymaxed on March 14, 2011, 01:48:18 pm
I'm currently building my house and have a goal of controlling "every" aspect of my house from a LinuxMCE setup.

1. Temperature control
2. Z-wave for all the lights, the electricians are putting in the components as I write
3. Music in multiple rooms, with built inn speakers
4. Possible to stream different tv signal to different rooms
5. Security systems with surveillance cameras
6. pluss much more, what cool things can be done

My budget is good and I rather do this the right way. I'm putting Cat6 cables inn all the rooms, I have a central room to put my Core, this room will also have the cable/satelite input, all the Cat6 cables ends up here. I also make it possible to wire from the speakers to both this room and to central location around the house, places to put my MD's maybe?

I understand that this is going to take some time. I tried out a little bit this weekend, and yes.. things take time.

Would greatly appreciate all input on how to best solve the different things.


Hi there,

Since your in a 'new build' situation and you've already made a number of decisions like such as ZWave (KNX would have possibly been a better choice...but we have many customers who are very happy with ZWave)... therefore I would highlight the following;

- Make sure that you run more CAT6 cable than you need to each room and to each location specifically where you might have a media playback device or need to control a device of some kind. If in doubt run the extra cables now...later will cost you much more!
- Think about what equipment will be located in-room and what will be located centrally (this will affect the point about cabling above)
- Think through where you audio amplification will be located; in-room or centralised. Also think through what you want to be able to do with audio ie synchronised playback in open plan areas maybe
- In any location where you will have equipment think about ventilation (I know this sounds obvious...but it trips up many people) - even in the central rack or equipment hub
- Take your time learning about LinuxMCE and dont rush in expecting to put to your system together in a rush (I know your already aware of this...but its worth restating)

All the best


Andrew  
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 14, 2011, 10:40:24 pm
I have to admit that I'm getting a little bit worried about my choice of z-wave. It's a quite big house, and alot of concrete that will make the signal transfer more difficult.

I'm really not sure what to do here.

You are sayning that you have customers that are happy with z-wave, is it also many of them experiencing problems?
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Marie.O on March 14, 2011, 11:35:13 pm
I ain't totallymaxed, but...

I had Z-Wave in my house for testing purposes (as well as some Enocean devices). It did not work as seamless, as I wanted it to.

IMHO Z-Wave is great if you have a place that works without Z-Wave routing. If you need routing, and you have a new build, Z-Wave is, imho, the wrong choice.

And this is from someone, who put KNX not into a new build, but into an existing building (all that was needed was some new paint in the rooms ;) )
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: totallymaxed on March 15, 2011, 12:12:50 am
I have to admit that I'm getting a little bit worried about my choice of z-wave. It's a quite big house, and alot of concrete that will make the signal transfer more difficult.

I'm really not sure what to do here.

You are sayning that you have customers that are happy with z-wave, is it also many of them experiencing problems?

Hi kvelland,

We have not had any customers who have been unhappy with ZWave at all. We have customer installations that range in size from 4x circuits to 50+ circuits of ZWave lighting (and other ZWave devices). We also have customers with a lot of concrete construction or in one particular case a lot of underfloor heating in their houses - both of these are not ideal for a wireless based technology. But in both cases it was possible to get a very reliable installation.

However if you are in the fortunate situation of having a new build property in construction then in many ways you may find KNX is a better choice. However it is more complicated overall to install and also to configure and setup/program than ZWave. For example the basic configuration/inclusion of a 40 node ZWave installation (ie no fancy lighting scenarios) can be achieved in about 60-75 mins - at the end of that time all lighting circuits will be functioning basically both from wall switches and from Orbiters. KNX will be slower and more complex in this respect to configure initially but ultimately may well provide a more flexible solution if you intend to expand and extend your systems functions over time.

All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: hari on March 15, 2011, 12:57:13 am
I have to admit that I'm getting a little bit worried about my choice of z-wave. It's a quite big house, and alot of concrete that will make the signal transfer more difficult.

I'm really not sure what to do here.

You are sayning that you have customers that are happy with z-wave, is it also many of them experiencing problems?
I did write our Z-Wave driver and did quite a few installations. The mesh routing can be tricky in some scenarios. I use high quality components (Merten) and even with a good mesh (about 40 devices on 100sqm), commands get lost sometimes..

If you can go KNX. KNX is 100% reliable.
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: bongowongo on March 15, 2011, 07:33:47 am
I don't know in which fase you are in building, if you can still pull wire easy for KNX, but if you cannot anymore,
there are also options to use the PowerLine, for KNX, or competitors PLCBus. You only need to make your sockets
deeper
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 15, 2011, 10:21:46 am
Thank you for all the answers. I talked to the electrians today and they where negative about changing plans so late. But I will put extra pipings so that it´s will be possible to change to something else later.

I will put some floor heating, they try to sell me their wireless system for controling this. Does anybody have any experience in theese solutions, is it possible to controll with z-wave deveices. The company that deliver the system is called uponor. I talked to their technical person but he had no idea what I was talking about.

http://www.catalog.uponor.com/index.php?id=27&no_cache=1&L=en&tx_uponorproduct_pi1[child]=112

Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: totallymaxed on March 15, 2011, 10:48:52 am
Thank you for all the answers. I talked to the electrians today and they where negative about changing plans so late. But I will put extra pipings so that it´s will be possible to change to something else later.

I will put some floor heating, they try to sell me their wireless system for controling this. Does anybody have any experience in theese solutions, is it possible to controll with z-wave deveices. The company that deliver the system is called uponor. I talked to their technical person but he had no idea what I was talking about.

http://www.catalog.uponor.com/index.php?id=27&no_cache=1&L=en&tx_uponorproduct_pi1[child]=112

The Uponor systems don't appear to have any external control interface - at least its not discussed on their site. The systems seem to be wired or wireless but this is just for inter-connecting the room stats, control processor and sensors together and not for interfacing to any kind of external control or system ie LinuxMCE. So it appears that the Uponor system is stand-alone and not controllable by external systems.

Hope the above helps...at least a little!

Andrew
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 15, 2011, 12:38:03 pm
The Uponor systems don't appear to have any external control interface - at least its not discussed on their site. The systems seem to be wired or wireless but this is just for inter-connecting the room stats, control processor and sensors together and not for interfacing to any kind of external control or system ie LinuxMCE. So it appears that the Uponor system is stand-alone and not controllable by external systems.

Hope the above helps...at least a little!

Andrew

Ok, thank you. I sent you an email about buying one of your system. Can I order to Norway, do you have som pricelist?
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: totallymaxed on March 15, 2011, 01:24:18 pm
Ok, thank you. I sent you an email about buying one of your system. Can I order to Norway, do you have som pricelist?

Hi kvelland,

Yes we do ship to Norway - see our forum thread here which has a lot of information about system pricing and shipping; http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=8880.msg60443#msg60443

I don't think I received an email from you but if you emailed our info<at>dianemo<dot>co<dot>uk address then someone from the sales side will get back to you asap. Please pm here on the forum if you do not a response this afternoon & I will assist or chase it up for you.

All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: hari on March 15, 2011, 01:56:08 pm
I don't know in which fase you are in building, if you can still pull wire easy for KNX, but if you cannot anymore,
there are also options to use the PowerLine, for KNX, or competitors PLCBus. You only need to make your sockets
deeper
powerline sucks (sloooow)

br Hari
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: hari on March 15, 2011, 01:58:18 pm
btw, knx over powerline (or RF) is not interoperable between vendors. KNX over TP is the only way to go if you ask me..

br Hari
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Marie.O on March 16, 2011, 12:23:03 am
KNX over Powerline is NOT slow, but it is about 30-50% more expensive than KNX over TP. Also, I do not know of any KNX over Powerline computer gateway that is supported. You can always add a KNX over Powerline to KNX over TP gateway, plus a KNX/IP gateway, but that adds around 600-700EUR to the equation.

If your electrician says you are too far into the building phase, fire him, and get a better electrician.
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Kezza on March 16, 2011, 01:07:07 am

If your electrician says you are too far into the building phase, fire him, and get a better electrician.

Agreed, if it's not to late to put extra conduit in the walls it should not be to late to alter wiring to KNX I would have thought (in fact appears to be easier and quicker).... more to the point your electrician probably doesn't know anything about KNX so put in too hard basket?

How far through the build are you? Personally I'd be wanting to have the best system possible if planning to make it my home for a while even if did stall the build a little.
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 17, 2011, 09:44:14 am
KNX over Powerline is NOT slow, but it is about 30-50% more expensive than KNX over TP. Also, I do not know of any KNX over Powerline computer gateway that is supported. You can always add a KNX over Powerline to KNX over TP gateway, plus a KNX/IP gateway, but that adds around 600-700EUR to the equation.

If your electrician says you are too far into the building phase, fire him, and get a better electrician.

I wish I could fire him. But he is "bundled" with the house I'm building. I will do alot of work myself on low-power devieces. And are considering putting out a bus also, and putting pipes for wiring from different places to my technical room. That way, he can do what he have to do, and later I can do what I want to do!

But, I'm working on a solution.

If I'm going to put in the bus mysekf, the walls are not yet closed. You are taking about KNX over TP, TP=Twisted Pair?, is that just networking cable? Is it just to put this cable running allover my house, and make some boxes where i in the future wants some switches or sensors?

And then from my roof dimmers, just a pipe down to the techical room, so that I can dim/switch?

Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Marie.O on March 17, 2011, 11:54:41 am
If I'm going to put in the bus mysekf, the walls are not yet closed. You are taking about KNX over TP, TP=Twisted Pair?, is that just networking cable? Is it just to put this cable running allover my house, and make some boxes where i in the future wants some switches or sensors?

And then from my roof dimmers, just a pipe down to the techical room, so that I can dim/switch?

It is not regular 4-paired TP CAT cable, but 2 pairs. There is special EIB/KNX cable available. I've paid ~350EUR for 1000m iirc.

Yes, you can very easily lay down the cables yourself, and have the electrician wire all the 230V stuff to your central location. In the central location you put the REG devices onto DIN rails, connect all the REG devices with the sensors in the rooms, and Voila!

I've written a small KNX/EIB Basics article in the wiki for TSCHak, which might be interesting for you as well.
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: tschak909 on March 17, 2011, 03:38:19 pm
it is worth noting that the sensors also go back to the same place as the actors, but the relationship of mapping a sensor to an actor, etc. is all done in the ETS3 software, making KNX probably the most flexible automation solution available.

-Thom
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: totallymaxed on March 17, 2011, 04:24:26 pm
it is worth noting that the sensors also go back to the same place as the actors, but the relationship of mapping a sensor to an actor, etc. is all done in the ETS3 software, making KNX probably the most flexible automation solution available.

-Thom

Hi kvelland,

As Thom says you will need (or at least I'd advise) getting the ETS3 software...or finding a friendly KNX installer who will assist you who has the ETS3 software...you will struggle to configure and setup your KNX devices otherwise. The actual KNX 230V hardware should be installed by a qualified electrician...really it should. The 230V hardware is not DIY! Read Hari's article for sure as that will be a big help to you... also see these articles too;

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/EIB/KNX_with_eibd (http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/EIB/KNX_with_eibd)

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/EIB/KNX_Hardware_Installation (http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/EIB/KNX_Hardware_Installation)

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/EIB/KNX (http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/EIB/KNX)

http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/KNX (http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/KNX)


All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 17, 2011, 08:11:18 pm
ok. So let me get this straight.

Let´s say I have 3 dimmers, and 3*3 spotlights 12v with a trafo to keep it simple :)

In the celing I will put regular power wires from the trafo to the KNX dimmer in the technial room. And from the dimmers on the wall I will put KNX wire from each dimmer on the wall down to the technical room?

I thought I just could put the BUS running between each dimmer on the wall and down to the technical room and to some equipment there.

Sorry my bad understading about this
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: totallymaxed on March 17, 2011, 08:30:36 pm
ok. So let me get this straight.

Let´s say I have 3 dimmers, and 3*3 spotlights 12v with a trafo to keep it simple :)

In the celing I will put regular power wires from the trafo to the KNX dimmer in the technial room. And from the dimmers on the wall I will put KNX wire from each dimmer on the wall down to the technical room?

I thought I just could put the BUS running between each dimmer on the wall and down to the technical room and to some equipment there.

Sorry my bad understading about this

Each KNX wall switch would be on the bus cable and that would be run down to your 'hub' or technical room where the KNX REG devices are located on the DIN rails. A KNX-IP gateway allows your LinuxMCE system to communicate with your KNX devices.

All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Marie.O on March 18, 2011, 08:13:15 am
kvelland,

with KNX it is a bit like a thin client architecture in the computer world.

The wall "switches" only act as input devices. Low voltage, sitting on the KNX cable, which can run through your house anyway you want to (except as a ring).

The dimmer (or any other KNX actor), sits centrally in the wiring closet and does the hard work, after receiving a message from the wall "switches" via the KNX cable.
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 18, 2011, 09:46:31 am
Thank you both of you.

Tht means that I'm going to have a busy weekend, they are closing the walls on monday :)
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: hari on March 18, 2011, 03:25:12 pm
Using decentralised (non-REG) actors is possible, too, but they are more expensive
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: tschak909 on March 18, 2011, 03:51:51 pm
Is there anything KNX WON'T do? ;) shiatsu? happy ending? :D

-Thom
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Marie.O on March 18, 2011, 11:05:41 pm
It does not work with out external electricity. That's where EnOcean shines ;)
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Randall on March 19, 2011, 01:12:45 am
Does anyone know if knx/eib is sold/standardized in N.America for 120v? Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KNX_%28standard%29) lists it as approved under a Canadian standard CSA-ISO/IEC 14543-3 but nobody seems to know anything about it here and I've found no resellers.
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Marie.O on March 19, 2011, 09:44:05 am
Look at http://elementscontrol.com - they seem to have KNX stuff for the US market. Maybe they like to sponsor a few devices to tschak909, and tkmedia can carry them in http://lmcecompatible.com. The voltage is only relevant for the actors btw. You should be fine using any and all of the world wide sensors, as they are powered by the KNX bus itself (i.e. 30V)
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: JoakimL on March 19, 2011, 10:10:13 am
You mean http://www.elementcontrols.com/ (http://www.elementcontrols.com/) ?


/Joakim
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 19, 2011, 10:08:57 pm
Well.. So far so good. Today I ran the bus cable through my house. Tomorrow I will continue putting pipes from different places where the electricians already have put regulars cables.

I think this will work out and my new house will have a good KNX infrastructure ready to have some fun with
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 19, 2011, 10:09:53 pm
I have said this over and over again, but will repeat it nonetheless: In a new build, I would not go Z-Wave but KNX. If you want to know why, search the forum and the wiki.

Thank you for this comment wich originally changes my mind :)
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Marie.O on March 20, 2011, 11:15:36 am
Glad to be of help. :)
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 29, 2011, 10:26:58 am
Ok. So ready for the next step.

I have the bus going in my soon to be home. I have found Dimmers and relés to put in the wiring closet.

But what do I need to make Linuxmce talk to the KNX system?

Can I use just a USB or RS232 interface? I prefer buying from Schneider.

Or can I use a IP gateway?

What is easiest and most "supported"?
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Marie.O on March 29, 2011, 10:40:18 am
I prefer a KNX/IP gateway.
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: hari on March 29, 2011, 05:01:07 pm

Can I use just a USB or RS232 interface? I prefer buying from Schneider.

Or can I use a IP gateway?

What is easiest and most "supported"?
the Schneider/merten ft1.2 works fine

Br
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 30, 2011, 11:30:26 am
Will this work with LinuxMce by connecting the Core with USB?
----
USB interface, flush-mounted
For connecting a programming or diagnostics
device with a USB1.1 or USB2 interface to the
KNX.
For screw mounting in the size 60 installation
box. With integrated bus coupler. The device is
connected to the bus with a bus connecting terminal.
Compatible with ETS 3.
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on March 30, 2011, 11:30:52 am
the Schneider/merten ft1.2 works fine

Br

Can't find any deviece called ft1.2
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: rages on March 30, 2011, 11:45:33 am
ft1.2 is the release of bus coupler in ETS.

Quote
Will this work with LinuxMce by connecting the Core with USB?
----
USB interface, flush-mounted
For connecting a programming or diagnostics
device with a USB1.1 or USB2 interface to the
KNX.
For screw mounting in the size 60 installation
box. With integrated bus coupler. The device is
connected to the bus with a bus connecting terminal.
Compatible with ETS 3.

yes
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: hari on March 30, 2011, 08:31:59 pm
Can't find any deviece called ft1.2
ft1.2 is a protocol..

look for merten 6813xx, e.g 681344
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: kvelland on June 14, 2011, 03:52:33 pm
Could be that there is a better forum for posting this, but it looks like there are alot of ppl good at knx here..

I are just about to start setup my house.

I understand that every bus coupled unit need to have an adress, do I need to use ETS software for this, or are there any other free software I can use?
Title: Re: Feedback wanted
Post by: Marie.O on June 14, 2011, 04:46:23 pm
You need ETS