LinuxMCE Forums

General => Feature requests & roadmap => Topic started by: monolith on November 11, 2010, 10:38:27 am

Title: Commercial Use
Post by: monolith on November 11, 2010, 10:38:27 am
Hi, I am sure that LinuxMCE is a great product. There is only one problem with this whole thing. Guys I cannot sell it for you, I cannot share profit with you and in the end I will not donate anything to you too. Why is that? The answer is very simple. I cannot have a software sold to the customer when it takes hours to install, dvd installs are not working, I have to go over hell of installation and then sit for hours to do setup of this whole thing. So this is what I propose:

1. Make it simple to install, not like now. There must be one CD or DVD which will install whole package once and properly and preconfigure it during installation.
2. Wizard should ask few questions and that is it. I should not have to  think for 3 days what to do with it. I cannot have trainings running in the business for installers, this will not sale.
3. I need to be able to add custom protocols ( I know there is an option for it but this should be done the way that I do not need to run IT division in house to support the system ).
4. System must be stable and well documented. Support is more important than the product itself.

I think that the problem is in chaos, nobody knows what the hell is going on on your website and those all ISO/CD/DVD files. I am not an lamer and I know linux very well but after 3 hours I have got frustrated and gave up on this thing. My brother is better in this things than me but he got to the same point, just got angry on it. I cannot have a thing sold which stops working because DVD is outdated or I cannot have packages downloaded on it. Make it the way that I can run it and it will work. Stop doing everything you do now and just get right whatever you have in there now. When you get it done properly then continue development. Imagine that I sell this thing and next year whole thing dies because hdd dies or whatever - earthquake or UFO attacks, then what do I do? Try to install it from dvd 8.10 and cry because it does not work anymore? So think how to do it so it can be sold in commercial environment as a product, I will be more than happy to pay for each license I sell.

I am looking for a product like this one and I would like to sell it as a part of the system which I produce but so far I am better to write more simple but stable and working product/software which I can support than sell yours.

Thank you.

Marek
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: bongowongo on November 11, 2010, 01:05:49 pm
You don't sell the software
you sell the labour/hardware and advice.
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: posde on November 11, 2010, 01:16:29 pm
Nothing to see here. Please move on.
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: bongowongo on November 11, 2010, 01:18:15 pm
Posde, maybe you should delete it before TSCHAK wakes up :)
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: los93sol on November 11, 2010, 03:51:04 pm
@Monolith
Those expectations are quite lofty at this stage...to thoroughly understand why you need to have some background of the projects history.  You can start by looking at pluto home's ailing website.

Read through the PPL on their website and consider that we are still focusing on freeing ourselves from that license.  As a businessman I'm sure you can see how, as long as we're operating under that license, we're basically limping around on one leg, no chance to run until we're free of those shackles.  Then go look at our codebase and see just how large and complex it is, you can imagine that with only a handful of us here working to accomplish these things, it takes a considerable amount of time.

Now consider that none of us are paid to do development on this system, I think I can speak for all the developers here when I say we do it because we enjoy it and understand the potential of the system.  We all have lives we live outside of this particular hobby, and most of us are also working 40+ hours a week, have families, etc.  We're only humans, we can only put in so much time programming, studying, researching, and designing.

That said, I would love to see your expectations of the system met, those are the goals we're all working towards, but your post does not come across as constructive, more like telling us to get our shit together and get busy so that you can profit off of it.  I'm going to suggest a few alternative approaches that would be more well received by the community here.

1) Contribute to the codebase and help us help you reach your goals, the few of us here that are actively working on the system are willing to help, you can find that time and time again on the forum, in the IRC channel(s), in TRAC, and on the wiki.

2) Make a donation to a developer who has already made significant contributions toward your goals, a nice gesture to say thanks for the work you've put in so far.

3) Test the system, if you have problems, open a TRAC ticket, yes there are some that have sat stagnant for quite some time, but we do look at them, and we are actively resolving those issues.

4) Help us get better documentation in the wiki.  If you solve a problem, search the wiki and add to our existing documentation.  If you find something incorrect in the wiki, correct the information.

5) Jump on the #linuxMCE channel on freenode IRC and help users solve problems they may be having and encourage them to provide feedback.

@Everyone who helps us
There's several ways you can help the project achieve those goals without relying solely on us.  I want to take a time out and thank everyone in this community who is actively helping, helping doesn't have to be in the form of programming, the short list above are also ways that people help us every day.

With that all out of the way, the software is not perfect, far from it in fact, I think we've all been frustrated with it at one time or another.  We find mistakes, we make mistakes, but mistakes are okay because mistakes provide feedback and feedback is how we learn.  Without making mistakes along the way, we'll never reach the goal and vision we all have of what this system can be.

@Anyone who wants to see an improvement
I hope this helps explain the reality of the project, and encourages at least one person to grab a shovel and start digging.

-Adam
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: DragonK on November 11, 2010, 03:59:33 pm
Adam,


Im A newbie, I'm in.
I know I'm far from being an active developer, but one day I'll have enough knowledge and be able to contribute more.
I do this for the love of the project. I'm currenly teaching myself C/C++ and ruby just so that I can contribute more back to the project one day.

Any pointers welcome

Karel
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: rperre on November 12, 2010, 04:21:04 am
Use this commercially, that is already proven but you will have to deal with "licensing" which is hard to get

With this "Open Source" stuff you have to be Patient.......
and patience is a virtue, you just proved that again.

Richard
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: golgoj4 on November 12, 2010, 11:56:52 am
@Monolith
Those expectations are quite lofty at this stage...to thoroughly understand why you need to have some background of the projects history.  You can start by looking at pluto home's ailing website.

Read through the PPL on their website and consider that we are still focusing on freeing ourselves from that license.  As a businessman I'm sure you can see how, as long as we're operating under that license, we're basically limping around on one leg, no chance to run until we're free of those shackles.  Then go look at our codebase and see just how large and complex it is, you can imagine that with only a handful of us here working to accomplish these things, it takes a considerable amount of time.

Now consider that none of us are paid to do development on this system, I think I can speak for all the developers here when I say we do it because we enjoy it and understand the potential of the system.  We all have lives we live outside of this particular hobby, and most of us are also working 40+ hours a week, have families, etc.  We're only humans, we can only put in so much time programming, studying, researching, and designing.

That said, I would love to see your expectations of the system met, those are the goals we're all working towards, but your post does not come across as constructive, more like telling us to get our shit together and get busy so that you can profit off of it.  I'm going to suggest a few alternative approaches that would be more well received by the community here.

1) Contribute to the codebase and help us help you reach your goals, the few of us here that are actively working on the system are willing to help, you can find that time and time again on the forum, in the IRC channel(s), in TRAC, and on the wiki.

2) Make a donation to a developer who has already made significant contributions toward your goals, a nice gesture to say thanks for the work you've put in so far.

3) Test the system, if you have problems, open a TRAC ticket, yes there are some that have sat stagnant for quite some time, but we do look at them, and we are actively resolving those issues.

4) Help us get better documentation in the wiki.  If you solve a problem, search the wiki and add to our existing documentation.  If you find something incorrect in the wiki, correct the information.

5) Jump on the #linuxMCE channel on freenode IRC and help users solve problems they may be having and encourage them to provide feedback.

@Everyone who helps us
There's several ways you can help the project achieve those goals without relying solely on us.  I want to take a time out and thank everyone in this community who is actively helping, helping doesn't have to be in the form of programming, the short list above are also ways that people help us every day.

With that all out of the way, the software is not perfect, far from it in fact, I think we've all been frustrated with it at one time or another.  We find mistakes, we make mistakes, but mistakes are okay because mistakes provide feedback and feedback is how we learn.  Without making mistakes along the way, we'll never reach the goal and vision we all have of what this system can be.

@Anyone who wants to see an improvement
I hope this helps explain the reality of the project, and encourages at least one person to grab a shovel and start digging.

-Adam

dang man, way to talk me down. I was about to rip him one, but meh, ill just say that his perspective need a serious correction. Anyways, thanks to all the people that spend their free time contributing. Random clueless people aside, its a nice community we have here.

And seriously. Possy. Nuke it from orbit. Its the only way to be sure...

-golgoj4
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: totallymaxed on November 13, 2010, 03:43:00 pm
Hi, I am sure that LinuxMCE is a great product. There is only one problem with this whole thing. Guys I cannot sell it for you, I cannot share profit with you and in the end I will not donate anything to you too. Why is that? The answer is very simple. I cannot have a software sold to the customer when it takes hours to install, dvd installs are not working, I have to go over hell of installation and then sit for hours to do setup of this whole thing. So this is what I propose:

1. Make it simple to install, not like now. There must be one CD or DVD which will install whole package once and properly and preconfigure it during installation.
2. Wizard should ask few questions and that is it. I should not have to  think for 3 days what to do with it. I cannot have trainings running in the business for installers, this will not sale.
3. I need to be able to add custom protocols ( I know there is an option for it but this should be done the way that I do not need to run IT division in house to support the system ).
4. System must be stable and well documented. Support is more important than the product itself.

I think that the problem is in chaos, nobody knows what the hell is going on on your website and those all ISO/CD/DVD files. I am not an lamer and I know linux very well but after 3 hours I have got frustrated and gave up on this thing. My brother is better in this things than me but he got to the same point, just got angry on it. I cannot have a thing sold which stops working because DVD is outdated or I cannot have packages downloaded on it. Make it the way that I can run it and it will work. Stop doing everything you do now and just get right whatever you have in there now. When you get it done properly then continue development. Imagine that I sell this thing and next year whole thing dies because hdd dies or whatever - earthquake or UFO attacks, then what do I do? Try to install it from dvd 8.10 and cry because it does not work anymore? So think how to do it so it can be sold in commercial environment as a product, I will be more than happy to pay for each license I sell.

I am looking for a product like this one and I would like to sell it as a part of the system which I produce but so far I am better to write more simple but stable and working product/software which I can support than sell yours.

Thank you.

Marek

Marek,

LinuxMCE is not a 'Product'...and we're not looking for you or anyone to sell it 'for us'.

LinuxMCE is an open source project run by the community here. People contribute their time and effort for free. Some of us here are involved in businesses and also freely contribute time, effort & code to the project.

All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: bisceaux on January 15, 2011, 05:12:08 pm
@Monolith
Those expectations are quite lofty at this stage...to thoroughly understand why you need to have some background of the projects history.  You can start by looking at pluto home's ailing website.

Read through the PPL on their website and consider that we are still focusing on freeing ourselves from that license.  As a businessman I'm sure you can see how, as long as we're operating under that license, we're basically limping around on one leg, no chance to run until we're free of those shackles.  Then go look at our codebase and see just how large and complex it is, you can imagine that with only a handful of us here working to accomplish these things, it takes a considerable amount of time.

New to this community.  I tried the pluto website and you are correct in that it is ailing and has many dead links. 

Can you give me the synopsis of what you are trying to say about the license and how you are trying to free yourselves from that license?  Sorry if this is covered elsewhere.
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: hari on January 15, 2011, 09:05:14 pm
get in contact with dianemo if you need a commercial license.

br Hari
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: bisceaux on January 15, 2011, 09:29:45 pm
get in contact with dianemo if you need a commercial license.
I don't need a commercial license.  I plan on using LinuxMCE for home use. 

I'm a programmer who has been using unix and perl for 10 years and finally have a little time on my hand to work on my home automation.  I am reviewing many software packages and feel like LinuxMCE has many benefits.  However, as the OP stated in a very rude manner, I'm not sure I want to spend more time on administration than I have too. 

I did notice that there hasn't been a release in a few years (or maybe I am wrong on this).  When I saw the response regarding the license issue, I just thought it might be nice to get some background so I would understand the development better.  I don't want to start using something that might not be around in the future or won't continue to be developed because of licensing issues.  I'm also a newb when in comes to licensing :-)
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: tschak909 on January 15, 2011, 10:51:54 pm
The software is constantly being worked on, stop by #linuxmce, in irc.freenode.net .. there is also a channel for developers.

We're just very outwardly quiet, because there is a lot of work to do, very few people to do it.

-Thom
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: FedExGuy on January 28, 2011, 08:51:27 pm
I am hoping soon to begin contributing to this project, I really like LinuxMCE it has the potential to be REALLY GREAT and is already doing allot of great things, but I had a nightmare of a time getting it to work. I mean literally weeks it took me to get it setup and running ( I stuck it out even through the many times I wanted to put my fist through the monitor and toss the PC across the room ). I firmly believed LinuxMCE was exactly what I needed for the job, and it has proven itself to be exactly that.

I am an electrical engineer with over 30 years of programming in almost every language, I have some ideas to contribute to the project, hopefully in the near future I will have the time work up some code and submit, maybe at some future date being a major contributor.
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: tschak909 on January 28, 2011, 09:59:31 pm
cool. Stop by the IRC channels #linuxmce and #linuxmce-devel on FreeNode. That is where the developers and support people hang out.

Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: FedExGuy on January 31, 2011, 01:07:20 am
I will stop by the IRC channels - it will be definitely be a blast from the past for me, I haven't been on IRC since the 90's, I am glad to see that mIRC is still around.
Unfortunately I can not access IRC at work so my time on it will be limited. Even if I were to go thru or around the proxy, the traffic would be noticed.
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: Sigg3.net on January 31, 2011, 02:27:28 pm
I think the dual-licensing scheme is pretty regular in the open source community. Though the solution particular to LinuxMCE has no dual-licensing IN PRACTICE, INSOFAR it is not bundled with hardware.

Quote
When the software is offered without hard goods, the same rights and restrictions apply as with the GPL license. However if a hard goods manufacturer wants to embed the software, or if a dealer wants to sell a turnkey hardware+software solution, then a separate license is required.
or in other words, the LinuxMCE project is fully GPL-compatible UNLESS you are selling a "hardware distribution":
Quote
“Hardware distribution” refers to selling some tangible hard good, such as a computer, television or automobile, which includes this software pre-installed or installed by the selling party or one of its agents, or if the hard good is marketed with reference to the software or its features.
SRC: plutohome.com/index.php?section=public_license]Pluto Public License

And which is which is made perfectly clear on this page: wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/License

I think Pluto's just watching out for themselves, which is fair, given the amount of work they put back to the project. All of the tools or software components that LinuxMCE use are available in some form or another in the open source community. But the hardware drivers for the DCE-router and the router itself are what constitute the essence of LinuxMCE, and not its disjointed parts. Given that the DCERouter and most of its hardware drivers came from Pluto, I wouldn't expect otherwise.

However, it must be emphasised that LinuxMCE IS dual licensed in a commercial setting. And although you don't have to be a lawyer to understand these texts, I think it would take a lawyer to see whether the Pluto Public License stands up in court, as the GPL is commonly recognized across the globe. The main question would be whether this type of dual-licensing would be in violation of the GPL, and thereby self-contradictory.

But those issues aside, and like I said before, I think the motive of Pluto is self-preservation. You probably could sell a "turnkey solution" using LinuxMCE, they just want to know who you are and that you're not ruining their business.
Title: Re: Commercial Use
Post by: totallymaxed on January 31, 2011, 07:43:34 pm
I think the dual-licensing scheme is pretty regular in the open source community. Though the solution particular to LinuxMCE has no dual-licensing IN PRACTICE, INSOFAR it is not bundled with hardware.
 or in other words, the LinuxMCE project is fully GPL-compatible UNLESS you are selling a "hardware distribution":SRC: plutohome.com/index.php?section=public_license]Pluto Public License

And which is which is made perfectly clear on this page: wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/License

I think Pluto's just watching out for themselves, which is fair, given the amount of work they put back to the project. All of the tools or software components that LinuxMCE use are available in some form or another in the open source community. But the hardware drivers for the DCE-router and the router itself are what constitute the essence of LinuxMCE, and not its disjointed parts. Given that the DCERouter and most of its hardware drivers came from Pluto, I wouldn't expect otherwise.

However, it must be emphasised that LinuxMCE IS dual licensed in a commercial setting. And although you don't have to be a lawyer to understand these texts, I think it would take a lawyer to see whether the Pluto Public License stands up in court, as the GPL is commonly recognized across the globe. The main question would be whether this type of dual-licensing would be in violation of the GPL, and thereby self-contradictory.

But those issues aside, and like I said before, I think the motive of Pluto is self-preservation. You probably could sell a "turnkey solution" using LinuxMCE, they just want to know who you are and that you're not ruining their business.

Pluto Inc is no longer trading or in existence. Pluto's assets were sold to a company that no longer markets Pluto the product. My Company CHT are now the only commercial license holder.

As far as I can see if you want to implement a system for in-house use inside a business that is perfectly acceptable. The only problems arise if you want to package a solution up for re-sale commercially.

All the best

Andrew