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General => Installation issues => Topic started by: ronank on July 13, 2010, 06:19:17 pm

Title: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: ronank on July 13, 2010, 06:19:17 pm
I'm about to get some renovation work done on an old house, including electrical re-wiring. As part of this, I want to install a network and infrastructure for multi-room audio. I don't have the money to install a complete system at this point, but want to get wires in the wall while I can. I'll build the system as I can afford it, and install the speakers later.

Most of this seems reasonably straightforward, but one thing that seems to require forethought is in-wall orbiters. I'd like to be able to control the system from touch panels in the walls, and I'd like these to be programmable, so that the setup is flexible. (I've looked at off-the-shelf systems, but they seem to tie you in to using a particular vendor's hardware.)

From what I've found on the LinuxMCE site, the Mini2440 seems to be the way to go for this. My question is, if I run CAT6 and power to a Mini2440 mounted in a wall, can I boot a Linux image from a server on this, so that I can create my own GUI to manage what the music server is doing? This seems feasible, but I'd like to be sure before I get carried away!

Does what I am thinking of make sense? Are there better devices to use for this?

Thanks,

Rónán
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: totallymaxed on July 13, 2010, 06:30:45 pm
I'm about to get some renovation work done on an old house, including electrical re-wiring. As part of this, I want to install a network and infrastructure for multi-room audio. I don't have the money to install a complete system at this point, but want to get wires in the wall while I can. I'll build the system as I can afford it, and install the speakers later.

Most of this seems reasonably straightforward, but one thing that seems to require forethought is in-wall orbiters. I'd like to be able to control the system from touch panels in the walls, and I'd like these to be programmable, so that the setup is flexible. (I've looked at off-the-shelf systems, but they seem to tie you in to using a particular vendor's hardware.)

From what I've found on the LinuxMCE site, the Mini2440 seems to be the way to go for this. My question is, if I run CAT6 and power to a Mini2440 mounted in a wall, can I boot a Linux image from a server on this, so that I can create my own GUI to manage what the music server is doing? This seems feasible, but I'd like to be sure before I get carried away!

Does what I am thinking of make sense? Are there better devices to use for this?

Thanks,

Rónán

Hi Rónán,

See this thread for some preliminary info on Touch Orbiter http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=10432.0 (http://forum.linuxmce.org/index.php?topic=10432.0) which may well be of interest to you.

The mini-2440 would be a good target machine to do a simple port of Touch Orbiter to - currently we have it running on cuwin-3500's.

All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: ronank on July 14, 2010, 10:34:17 pm
Andrew

Thanks. How much work is involved in porting the Touch Orbiter? I do know one end of a C compiler from the other, but it's been a long time since I did any significant coding.

Rónán
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: totallymaxed on July 15, 2010, 12:11:38 am
Andrew

Thanks. How much work is involved in porting the Touch Orbiter? I do know one end of a C compiler from the other, but it's been a long time since I did any significant coding.

Rónán

Really not very much at all especially if the Device runs WinCE. But even if that is not the case you can use the CUWIN-3500 targeted code to base your specific implementation on. You could write the Touch Orbiter code in any programming language in fact as long as it can accept input from a touch screen, display png's or jpeg's and communicate via IP sockets with the Core over the LAN.

We'll have the reference design source code up on the Wiki & svn in the next few days by the way.

All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: gonesurfing on July 15, 2010, 09:37:52 am
hi ronan
you could also look at the weborbiter 2.0 running on a generic webpad over wifi i have it running on an eken m003 and it works well plus the only wire you have to run is a 9vdc power supply
steve
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: MarcoZan on July 15, 2010, 11:20:03 am
Hi gonesurfing
does eken m003 have any wall fixing system or table cradle or anything similar?
I think it's a very nice portable device to have in your hand, it would be really great if it could be somehow used as a wall mounted device or as Web DT.
Can you tell something more on this?
TIA
Marco

Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: totallymaxed on July 15, 2010, 02:24:38 pm
hi ronan
you could also look at the weborbiter 2.0 running on a generic webpad over wifi i have it running on an eken m003 and it works well plus the only wire you have to run is a 9vdc power supply
steve

Thanks for letting us know you have Web Orbiter 2.0 running on the eken m003. The m003 looks a very nice low cost device indeed.

All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: purps on July 15, 2010, 03:33:39 pm
Can I just ask a general question guys (I'm not having a go, am genuinely curious); what is the point of having in-wall orbiters? I can understand it from the POV of having one in your hallway or porch acting as an alarm panel, but what else would you need/use them for? Just seems to me that a combination of mobile orbiters (acting as remote controls) and onscreen orbiters would be all that was required.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: tschak909 on July 15, 2010, 03:48:16 pm
Believe it or not, this was the rationale regarding Orbiter's design. It was the anti-Crestron, where in Crestron, there are wall panels everywhere, statically created, in LinuxMCE, the orbiters fit devices you can carry around.

The in-wall displays are good for security panels, etc...and I typically put the security panel as the main screen for such devices, or lighting scenarios for a panel in a room, but it's all preference.

-Thom
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: ronank on July 15, 2010, 04:00:15 pm
Andrew: Does the Touch Orbiter run on Linux or WinCE?

Marco: The Cuwin-3500 is out of my price range, but the Eken m003 is more affordable, thanks.

Purps: I can't speak generally, but my main rationale is that I'd prefer to run a wired rather than a wireless network. It also means that I don't have to have a device for every person using the system, or to remember to carry the Orbiter around the house with me.

Rónán

Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: wierdbeard65 on July 15, 2010, 04:34:38 pm
Can I just ask a general question guys (I'm not having a go, am genuinely curious); what is the point of having in-wall orbiters? I can understand it from the POV of having one in your hallway or porch acting as an alarm panel, but what else would you need/use them for? Just seems to me that a combination of mobile orbiters (acting as remote controls) and onscreen orbiters would be all that was required.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.
For my own part, one of the things I absolutely HATE about modern entertainment devices (TV's, STBs, DVD players etc) is that you cannot use them without the remote. No, I don't want to have to get up to change channel or to start / stop play, but I'd like the option to do so from the device's front panel!

Why?

Simple, I have kids. They argue. Part of their constant battle is to hide the remote from each other and as a result, once they are in bed, from me! (In the case of the 5-year old, he often hides it and forgets where it is!) Yes, I COULD beat them to within an inch of their lives to teach them a lesson, but I think that would be overkill!

My point? Well, I want mobile Orbiters, but I would also like some that are wall-mounted. Primary purpose would be lighting / security as already mentioned, but secondary would allow me to control the TV etc without going on an Orbiter hunt first  ;D (Even the on-screen needs a gyro-mouse or similar unless you have a touch-screen, which leads to sticky fingermarks (remember the 5-year old!) on the main HT TV  >:()
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: MarcoZan on July 15, 2010, 06:09:34 pm
Andrew: Does the Touch Orbiter run on Linux or WinCE?

Marco: The Cuwin-3500 is out of my price range, but the Eken m003 is more affordable, thanks.

Purps: I can't speak generally, but my main rationale is that I'd prefer to run a wired rather than a wireless network. It also means that I don't have to have a device for every person using the system, or to remember to carry the Orbiter around the house with me.

Rónán



Hi Ronan
that's exactly my point. CUWIN is nice, but too out of reach, Mini2240 could be good enough but compared to Eken is far less convenient.
So eken sounds like the break-even I was looking for.
As you own one of those I'm just curious to know whether it has some cradle or similar, or if when you stop using it you just drop it over the table (and possibly out of wierdbeard65 kids sight ...  ;D )

Thanks and regards
Marco
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: totallymaxed on July 15, 2010, 07:52:03 pm
Andrew: Does the Touch Orbiter run on Linux or WinCE?

Marco: The Cuwin-3500 is out of my price range, but the Eken m003 is more affordable, thanks.

Purps: I can't speak generally, but my main rationale is that I'd prefer to run a wired rather than a wireless network. It also means that I don't have to have a device for every person using the system, or to remember to carry the Orbiter around the house with me.

Rónán



The reference implementation of Touch Orbiter is for WinCE 5.0 on the CUWIN-3500. However our hope is that Forum members will look at our WinCE code and use it to write implementations for other OS's. The Touch Orbiter is really a very simple light weight little app... and you dont need to know anything about the 'guts' of LinuxMCE create a Touch Orbiter for another device.

The Eken M003 is a nice touch based Android unit. It already supports Web Orbiter 2.0 (see other threads here for info) so you could just go that route straight off. You could also create an implementation of Touch Orbiter for Android too....after all Touch Orbiter is the Web Orbiter running outside a Web Browser.

All the best


Andrew
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: totallymaxed on July 15, 2010, 08:00:22 pm
Andrew: Does the Touch Orbiter run on Linux or WinCE?

Marco: The Cuwin-3500 is out of my price range, but the Eken m003 is more affordable, thanks.

Purps: I can't speak generally, but my main rationale is that I'd prefer to run a wired rather than a wireless network. It also means that I don't have to have a device for every person using the system, or to remember to carry the Orbiter around the house with me.

Rónán



Hi Ronan
that's exactly my point. CUWIN is nice, but too out of reach, Mini2240 could be good enough but compared to Eken is far less convenient.
So eken sounds like the break-even I was looking for.
As you own one of those I'm just curious to know whether it has some cradle or similar, or if when you stop using it you just drop it over the table (and possibly out of wierdbeard65 kids sight ...  ;D )

Thanks and regards
Marco

The point of the CUWIN-3500 implementation was to deliver working WinCE code on a device we had and more importantly to encourage others to use our code to develop other implementations in other languages and on other OS's. The Touch Orbiter is really incredibly simple and easy to code.

Andrew
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: totallymaxed on July 15, 2010, 08:06:55 pm
Can I just ask a general question guys (I'm not having a go, am genuinely curious); what is the point of having in-wall orbiters? I can understand it from the POV of having one in your hallway or porch acting as an alarm panel, but what else would you need/use them for? Just seems to me that a combination of mobile orbiters (acting as remote controls) and onscreen orbiters would be all that was required.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

I tend to agree that in-wall Orbiters are less useful from a whol range of angles than portable touch based devices. However there are many who disagree and there are logical reasons for taking either position. Some people like the idea of having an in-wall Touch Orbiter in the hallway or upstairs landing area so that whatever happens they cannot get a situation where they can't find a remote or portable Touch Orbiter. I can see that logic too...

So its down to personal preference as ever... there is no one 'right way' ;-)

All the best

Andrew
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: posde on July 15, 2010, 09:15:47 pm
I like wall mounted stuff as well, just like I prefer a corded phone over cordless phones. This does not mean, I don't own a mobile phone (which acts as an orbiter as well), but that I like to have a dedicated place, where I find stuff that I want to use.
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: buckle on July 15, 2010, 10:19:50 pm

Marco: The Cuwin-3500 is out of my price range, but the Eken m003 is more affordable, thanks.


DX has a handful of winCE devices that are affordable (like this one http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.39551 (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.39551)).

Not sure about the quality, though.
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: totallymaxed on July 15, 2010, 10:24:10 pm

Marco: The Cuwin-3500 is out of my price range, but the Eken m003 is more affordable, thanks.


DX has a handful of winCE devices that are affordable (like this one http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.39551 (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.39551)).

Not sure about the quality, though.

Well that WinCE machine should be fine and the CUWIN-3500 code may work without changes on that unit.... but its not in-wall and on that basis I would go for the m003 as its not that much more cash.

Andrew
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: ronank on July 16, 2010, 10:42:20 am
Marco: Just to clarify, I don't own any of these devices yet. Once I do, I'll let you know how I get on.

Andrew: So the Touch Orbiter can run/can be ported to run on Linux running on a Mini2440?

From a wiring point of view, is there anything to prevent me from building one of these into a wall?

Thanks,

Rónán
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: totallymaxed on July 16, 2010, 11:37:57 am
Andrew: So the Touch Orbiter can run/can be ported to run on Linux running on a Mini2440?

From a wiring point of view, is there anything to prevent me from building one of these into a wall?

Thanks,

Rónán

Yes the Touch Orbiter would need porting to Linux as our current code is for the WinCE 5.0... but to be frank porting it over to Linux would be trivial. We did a WinCE version to make the point that it can be done.

As to putting a Mini-2440 in the Wall I cant see any problem other than physical mounting issues...Power & CAT5 is all you'd need.

All the best

Andrew
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: ronank on July 16, 2010, 01:31:16 pm
Andrew

We'll see how trivial porting it is for me... it's been a while!

Do you have any idea what sort of back box is required for a Mini-2440? Can these fit into a standard double socket box?

Thanks,

Rónán
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: purps on July 16, 2010, 02:15:29 pm
Can I just ask a general question guys (I'm not having a go, am genuinely curious); what is the point of having in-wall orbiters? I can understand it from the POV of having one in your hallway or porch acting as an alarm panel, but what else would you need/use them for? Just seems to me that a combination of mobile orbiters (acting as remote controls) and onscreen orbiters would be all that was required.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Thanks for the various inputs on my question guys. I can completely understand it from the POV of not needing to hunt down a mobile orbiter (in my house however things tend to stay where I or the Mrs puts them.... no kids  ;)).

I would definitely consider putting one in the hallway to control the alarm, lights when you get in/go out/go to bed, heating perhaps. Personally I just don't see where else I would ever use a wall-mounted orbiter, especially when I always have my mobile on me. In what other locations do you have them located guys, and what do you mainly use them for?
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: MarcoZan on July 16, 2010, 03:40:18 pm
Marco: Just to clarify, I don't own any of these devices yet. Once I do, I'll let you know how I get on.

Andrew: So the Touch Orbiter can run/can be ported to run on Linux running on a Mini2440?

From a wiring point of view, is there anything to prevent me from building one of these into a wall?

Thanks,

Rónán

@ Ronan: sorry... you're right .... I re-read the posts behind and I think I confused a post of yours with a post of gonesurfing, that is the one actually owning an eken m003.

@gonesurfing: can you tell us more about your shining new eken m003  ;) ?
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: Techstyle on July 16, 2010, 06:21:53 pm
In what other locations do you have them located guys, and what do you mainly use them for?

I would put one on the bathroom wall ;D

As for wall mounting it, I was thinking of getting one and getting it framed at the local framing shop then rigidly mounting it
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: Kooma on July 16, 2010, 06:38:47 pm
Hey, another alternative from the DX http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.39169 ??
Would that work as an in-wall orbiter? The price is soo low, attempting..
/Kooma
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: totallymaxed on July 17, 2010, 11:37:31 am
Hey, another alternative from the DX http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.39169 ??
Would that work as an in-wall orbiter? The price is soo low, attempting..
/Kooma

Well its a handheld Android device so it would not be easy to make it work as an in-wall device...you'd need to devise a way of mounting it in the wall that looked neat and clean. From a software point of view you could use Web Orbiter 2.0 on this device as we have tested Web Orbiter 2.0 on HTC Android 1.6 Phones and this unit uses Android 1.6 and has an 800x480 re screen which is the same resolution as the Nokia N800/810 - so i cant see you having any problems.

All the best

Andrew
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: totallymaxed on July 17, 2010, 11:47:28 am
Andrew

We'll see how trivial porting it is for me... it's been a while!

Do you have any idea what sort of back box is required for a Mini-2440? Can these fit into a standard double socket box?

Thanks,

Rónán

Well you might be a little 'rusty' in your coding skills ;-).... but the key thing to understand is that Touch Orbiter abstracts all of the complexity of creating an Orbiter by using the proxy_orbiter which is code that runs on your Core for each Touch Orbiter (and is also used for the Web Orbiter 2.0 too). Proxy_orbiter contains all of the Orbiter code you get in a full MD Orbiter but it uses Touch Orbiter as a 'remote' display for its UI. So Touch Orbiter just has to handle touch input from the screen, display of png or jpeg screen images and do some simple IP/socket based network connectivity. So basically you just need to be familiar with making apps for the device your targeting all of the LinuxMCE complexity is already handled for you in the proxy_orbiter which is code that already exists.

Dig in and have a try when we release the Touch Orbiter source code ;-) (probably in the next few days I would think)

I dont have any info on the specifics of mounting the 2440 in-wall... but others here I am sure may be able to help you out.

All the best

Andrew
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: Schmich on July 18, 2010, 01:14:50 am
If one can dream the best would maybe be a neatly attached in-wall portable tablet that can be removed when desired.
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: posde on July 18, 2010, 10:50:39 am
If one can dream the best would maybe be a neatly attached in-wall portable tablet that can be removed when desired.

Your dreams have been listened to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPn4Bf4cPZI

edit: In case you were wondering, price for the enclosure (without the touchpanel) is around 1600USD

edit 2: The touchpanel itself is priced for the 8.4" (the size of the WebDTs that you can get from tkmedia for < 500USD) at 5 thousand USD
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: totallymaxed on July 18, 2010, 11:50:40 am
If one can dream the best would maybe be a neatly attached in-wall portable tablet that can be removed when desired.

Well there are numerous options for mounting iPad's 'on-wall' such as these;

http://www.easydevices.co.uk/products.asp?partno=WALLBRODITIPAD&model= (http://www.easydevices.co.uk/products.asp?partno=WALLBRODITIPAD&model=)

http://shop.modulrcase.com/slim-mount.html (http://shop.modulrcase.com/slim-mount.html)

http://www.iclarified.com/entry/index.php?enid=10007 (http://www.iclarified.com/entry/index.php?enid=10007)

And there are Android equivalents coming too...so I think this type of solution will be very popular - hybrid wall mount/portable tablet.

All the best

Andrew
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: aico on July 19, 2010, 09:44:37 am
Hi,

did anyone try to install Android on a Mini2440 with 7" touch screen?
If this works, WebOrbiter2 can be used - this could be a possibility

Regards
Johannes
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: totallymaxed on July 19, 2010, 02:55:00 pm
Hi,

did anyone try to install Android on a Mini2440 with 7" touch screen?
If this works, WebOrbiter2 can be used - this could be a possibility

Regards
Johannes

Yep that sounds doable. Give it a try... Web Orbiter 2.0 works fine on Android 1.6 by the way.

All the best


Andrew

PS The other approach would be to port Touch Orbiter to Android
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: purps on July 30, 2010, 12:26:16 pm
Hope you guys don't mind if I ask another wall-mounted orbiter-related question...

If you decide to put one in your hallway for example, chances are you won't have an MD in that area - does this matter? How do you set up a standalone orbiter for a given room without having to set up an MD in it first?
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: posde on July 30, 2010, 12:33:49 pm
You can have a gazillion rooms in your house without an MD. The Orbiter select the room it wants to control. The main menu will display all the scenarios that are possible in that room. If you don't have a Media Director, that main menu will not show any media scenarios (like TV,Video or Audio).
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: rperre on August 02, 2010, 05:59:31 am
I'm ordering a 2440 this week and start playing with it, i need a wall mounted orbiter for the bathroom, the wife wants music when she takes a shower and gets ready and building in some speakers this week.

I have a question though..... Can the standard orbiter be "customized" to show e.g. only an audio menu with different buttons for music/mp3's, internet radio, connected radio, "pandora"?. So basically a screen that is always there for my wife to play with and a button to get to the "main" menu if necessary?

Hope it makes sense.

Richard
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: tschak909 on August 02, 2010, 09:09:24 pm
you can specify a specific home PK_Screen in the device data for that orbiter, in the Advanced > Config > Devices

Look in the screen table for the screen you want, probably media scenarios. Use this screen #

-Thom
Title: Re: Mini2440 as wall-mounted orbiter
Post by: rperre on August 02, 2010, 09:34:22 pm
Awesome, thanks,

Richard